Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok so how is Cap able to KO people 100 times his strength then? According to your logic thats PIS as well. Also cap should break his hand punching these people also.Also Tiger Shark wasnt thinking clearly because he was put into a beserk state by Kraven.
That does not explain why he would not simply move his neck and break the chain which he easily could let a lone one that is rusted. Hell the chain should literally break before any abstraction would be caused by Punisher pulling on it. Not to mention there no reason why tiger shark does not simply break the chain with his hand, or simply grab Punisher. Punisher literally stand on one of his arms/hands. Not to mention how did Punisher get on a being who is vastly faster then him in the water.
In my opinion this would be ridiculous to argue for inhumanly strong individuals like wolverine or even spiderman let a lone Punisher. These are the times when you should chooses your battles, because times like this will only hurt your cases to the majority of the forum when Punisher is being debated, and what tends to get such a character disliked, it fans ignored and rediculed
Originally posted by Battlehammer
He should not be able to and in all honesty it should be PIS. We however allowed such events depending on the amount of them and the circumstances of the event. We accredit it to be due the his/there skill. We only uses events such as, punching, kicking type attacks,knee's, head butts because it at least makes more senses because one could assume they are aiming at a weak point in the bricks body and ones punches,knee's kicks and head butts are able to produce force far greater far greater then there actual strength.
LOL it doesnt matter if they're aiming for weak point, the weak points are still 100s of times more durable and they should still break their hands.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
This however is not the case with individual using a chain to strangle a brick, because it can't even be argued as kill, because it would directly acquire ones direct strength which clearly Punisher does not posses nearly enough to accomplish such a feat no matter how skilled.
Of course it can be argued skill was used. If you look at the vast majority of Captain america punches they look like standard punches but we assume skll is used.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
That does not explain why he would not simply move his neck and break the chain which he easily could let a lone one that is rusted. Hell the chain should literally break before any abstraction would be caused by Punisher pulling on it. Not to mention there no reason why tiger shark does not simply break the chain with his hand, or simply grab Punisher. Punisher literally stand on one of his arms/hands. Not to mention how did Punisher get on a being who is vastly faster then him in the water.
The chain has some rust that doesnt make it that more different from a standard steel chain if it was completely rusted thats anotehr matter. Again Caps fists are not even as durable as a steel chain and has managed to stun and hurt breaks without even hurting his hand. Obvously its makes more sense for a more durable substance to break.
Hes faster thahn him in water. Didnt stop Cap from Koing Namor in water is that PIS as well.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
In my opinion this would be ridiculous to argue for inhumanly strong individuals like wolverine or even spiderman let a lone Punisher. These are the times when you should chooses your battles, because times like this will only hurt your cases to the majority of the forum when Punisher is being debated, and what tends to get such a character disliked, it fans ignored and rediculed
Not really your just trying to get back at me from back in the day.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL it doesnt matter if they're aiming for weak point, the weak points are still 100s of times more durable and they should still break their hands.Of course it can be argued skill was used. If you look at the vast majority of Captain america punches they look like standard punches but we assume skll is used.
The chain has some rust that doesnt make it that more different from a standard steel chain if it was completely rusted thats anotehr matter. Again Caps fists are not even as durable as a steel chain and has managed to stun and hurt breaks without even hurting his hand. Obvously its makes more sense for a more durable substance to break.
Hes faster thahn him in water. Didnt stop Cap from Koing Namor in water is that PIS as well.
Not really your just trying to get back at me from back in the day.
Your entire arguement is that other events capt has done would be impossiable as well......how does this help you? All your doing is exknowledging that they are infect impossiable and there for pis
'I don't care about getting back at you. Nor do I even get what you are referring to, what would I have against you that would make me hold a grudge to now. Seems stupid and rather petty.
Originally posted by SuperiorTech
The entire fight if you want to see it.
Is this really being argued. I mean this shows Punisher overpowering a guy who 100 times stronger then him self it not more lol. This by very definition is PIS. Also how can that even be argued as skill, he clearly had to have over powered Tiger Shark there nothing skill full about it, let a lone enough to classify a move to even a tier above let a lone to top tier.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Your entire arguement is that other events capt has done would be impossiable as well......how does this help you? All your doing is exknowledging that they are infect impossiable and there for pis
Er no its not. The point is that if those feats are valid then this one is. Plenty of posters and even yourself in the past have acknowledged that cap hitting bricks with his bare hands is a valid feat. Im not about to state that Cap hurting bricks is PIS because hes been doing it for 100s of years. The difference is that Cap does it more consistently. Basically people are picking and choosing what makes sense in a fictional universe that doesnt make any sense.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
'I don't care about getting back at you. Nor do I even get what you are referring to, what would I have against you that would make me hold a grudge to now. Seems stupid and rather petty.
Look just forget it.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Is this really being argued. I mean this shows Punisher overpowering a guy who 100 times stronger then him self it not more lol. This by very definition is PIS. Also how can that even be argued as skill, he clearly had to have over powered Tiger Shark there nothing skill full about it, let a lone enough to classify a move to even a tier above let a lone to top tier.
Er again other skilled MAs have similar feats. hes not overpowering him hes using skill obvoulsy. Again Caps punches look like standard punches we assume that skill is used.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er no its not. The point is that if those feats are valid then this one is. Plenty of posters and even yourself in the past have acknowledged that cap hitting bricks with his bare hands is a valid feat. Im not about to state that Cap hurting bricks is PIS because hes been doing it for 100s of years. The difference is that Cap does it more consistently. Basically people are picking and choosing what makes sense in a fictional universe that doesnt make any sense.
Hitting a brick with ones bare hands should not be valid then, it you want to start this, becuase I for one think it retarded anyways.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er again other skilled MAs have similar feats. hes not overpowering him hes using skill obvoulsy. Again Caps punches look like standard punches we assume that skill is used.
Capt punching something would still make more senses then what Punisher just did. At least you be able to make an arguement, that due to capt enhanced strength and speed, his punching force would be extremely powerful, if that of normal humans can hit punch with 1000 pounds of force, he should be able to hit with several 1000, however it still make little senses. However, it a lot better then Punisher over powering Tiger Shark with brute strength and then try and right it off as MA which is reidculous in it self.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
If we allowed everything, then Batman would be sky father level.
We dont allow everything we see how consistent characters are.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Hitting a brick with ones bare hands should not be valid then, it you want to start this, becuase I far one think it retarded anyways.
Really lets translate that.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Since PZ has actually made a case that Punisher beating Tiger Shark with a chain is comparable to hitting bricks with bare hands then im going to suddenly decide that hitting bricks with barehands is PIS.
Got it. 👆
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Really were is he using skill? No amount of skill would allow him to push tiger shark to the surface like he did and then get behind him with a chain as he simply sit there an allows it.
and no amount of skill should allow Cap to hurt Korvac with his barehands
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Capt punching something would still make more senses then what Punisher just did. At least you be able to make an arguement, that due to capt enhanced strength and speed, his punching force would be extremely powerful, if that of normal humans can hit punch with 1000 pounds of force, he should be able to hit with several 1000, however it still make little senses. However, it a lot better then Punisher over powering Tiger Shark with brute strength and then try and right it off as MA which is reidculous in it self.
Look stop cherry picking your logic, they are both illogical. listen we might as well just end this discussion here.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
We dont allow everything we see how consistent characters are.Really lets translate that.
Got it. 👆
Arnt you clever. I never once said I agreed MA hitting bricks as not being PIS. I gave what the forum over view on the matter was.
If capt/ other MA not aiming for a weaknesses or has a credible reason for how they hurt the bricks as any other street, then it simply should be ignore since it would indeed fall within PIS.
Are you going to try and argue the whole capt hits with 100 ton force crap again? This is eery similar to how that happened last time if not mistaken.
Also your explanation did not explain how Punisher feat can be validated. Even if we acknowledged that MA at times can hurt bricks with punches. A punch can generate vastly more force then pushing or pulling. What Punisher did was not Punch Tiger Shark h4 pushed him while under water to the surfaces, even though Tiger Shark who 100 times stronger and can move ridiculous speeds under water was pushing him down ward, and then he was able to get behind him and choke him out as Tiger shark simply allowed it.......and your arguement is this was due from skill........and now Punisher deserver top tier? Did I miss anything?
Originally posted by Warrior18
The only Kraven I know is the low superhuman expert hunter who wears lots of fur. I really really don't think he is an A list MA.
Besides he sounds as if he fluctuates like hell from what I've heard on the boards.
Exactly you dont even know who im talking about. Im talking about Aloysha Karvinoff the son of Kraven. Could you pleas give examples of his fluctuating skill level before actually trying to disregard feats please.
Originally posted by Warrior18
I didn't say it doesn't count. It was a decent feat from what I recall. Fact is last time I checked Stu Clarke isn't a martial artist or trained fighter of any sort. So Frank 'out skilling' him isn't really going to require the kind of H2H ability you seem to think it would.
*sigh* You missed the point entirely. Rampage is a formidable opponent, he doesnt have martial art skill but his exoskeleton and brawling skills compensate him from his lack of skill. Frank had to use martial art skill against him. How on earth did you miss the point that hes taken on The Champions? One of those individuals was Black Widow who is second tier and couldnt handle him.
Originally posted by Warrior18
Again surviving against a relative brick doesn't in any way denote A grade martial arts skill.
Yes it does because as stated earlier on superhuman stats compensate people for alck of skill. Punisher fought him underwater where Tiger Shark was even stronger and had superhuman speed.
Originally posted by Warrior18
I fail to see how one or two recent showings against physically much stronger much tougher yet highly (and I must stress) highly unskilled opponents means anything.It really doesn't tell us more about Frank's H2H skill than we already knew. Its good but not top tier.Anyway I seem to remember Frank overpowering him in water in that fight. Pretty crazy.
Well for starters I dont even think read Punisher and you're trying to tell me about what you know. Also what you are doing is sepearting the feats and instead of taking them as a whole taking them individually.
Originally posted by Warrior18
Much of the time when we are talking about skill yes they do. Otherwise anyone who has ever managed to look good and/or survive against physically powerful meta-humans would automatically be an elite level fighter.Most street levelers when they come up against such opponents initially put up a bit of a fight. Are they automatically uber skilled?
How does being able to not get hit by or survive against big physically powerful but occasionally dumb and almost always horribly unskilled characters denote A class martial arts ability?
LOL of course using martial art skill againt a meta-human denotes you are highly skilled. Powers compensate you for skill how the hell do you think Stu Clark manged to own Black Widow? Obvoulsy if a secind teir fighter couldnt beat Stu somebody woiuld have to be more skilled to beat him....good grief.
Originally posted by Warrior18
So............Frank is fast and can dodge bullets.............
Ther point is it was an uber bullet dodging feat, that is actually better than the vast majority of Batmans.
Originally posted by Warrior18
As side note there are plenty of people from tier 2 who are in a much better position than Punisher for a claim in the top tier.
To tell the truth I think hes second tier but the fact you are trying to illogically downplay feats is making me argue. I mean hell even when I give an example of him fighting a top tier you come out with excuses.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
so punisher consistently over power individuals who 100 times his strength?
Nope but hes got enough showings that indicate hes skillful enough to do it. Its just not the norm.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Arnt you clever. I never once said I agreed MA hitting bricks as not being PIS. I gave what the forum over view on the matter was.
Interestingly enough im pretty sure you dont see Wolverine Koing Roughouse as PIS. 👆
Originally posted by Battlehammer
If capt/ other MA not aiming for a weaknesses or has a credible reason for how they hurt the bricks as any other street, then it simply should be ignore since it would indeed fall within PIS.
Lots of people think that Mas should be able to hurt bricks.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Are you going to try and argue the whole capt hits with 100 ton force crap again? This is eery similar to how that happened last time if not mistaken.
Actually I never said that. Anyway its a matter of opinion
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Also your explanation did not explain how Punisher feat can be validated. Even if we acknowledged that MA at times can hurt bricks with punches. A punch can generate vastly more force then pushing or pulling. What Punisher did was not Punch Tiger Shark in pushed him while under water to the surfaces, even though Tiger Shark who 100 stronger and can move ridiculous speeds under water was pushing him down ward, and then he was able to get behind him and choke him out as Tiger shark simply allowed it.......and your arguement is this was due from skill........and now Punisher deserver top tier? Did I miss anything?
Yeah it did stop pretending that it didnt. Anyway I dont really have a problm with people seeing that feat as PIS but I dont think it is. Anyway im done, ive given my explanation take it or leave it.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and no amount of skill should allow Cap to hurt Korvac with his barehandsLook stop cherry picking your logic, they are both illogical. listen we might as well just end this discussion here.
If you did not wish to discuss it, then you should not have brought it up
I am not cherry picking anything, I think they should all be PIS.
Also Capt hurting a cosmic being which his fists does not scream PIS to you?
I would not even argue that and Wolverine has adamatium so he have no fear of breaking his bones
Originally posted by Battlehammer
nice that you agree. Not sure how you stating capt should not be able to hurt a brick/cosmic guy helps your arguement to validate the Punisher feat.......If you did not wish to discuss it, then you should not have brought it up
I am not cherry picking anything, I think they should all be PIS.
Also Capt hurting a cosmic being which his fists does not scream PIS to you?
Look just forget it. You dont have to agree but you're just being argumentative.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I would not even argue that and Wolverine has adamatium so he have no fear of breaking his bones
In this instance im not refering to him breaking his bones im refering to him being able to KO him. Hell ive never seen him aim for weak points and they look like standard punches. Like I said you just pick and choose what makes sense. Wolverine shouldnt able to KO Roughouse.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Nope but hes got enough showings that indicate hes skillful enough to do it. Its just not the norm.
Just out of curiosity what supposes feats indicate him be able to do this
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Interestingly enough im pretty sure you dont see Wolverine Koing Roughouse as PIS. 👆
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Lots of people think that Mas should be able to hurt bricks.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Actually I never said that. Anyway its a matter of opinion
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah it did stop pretending that it didnt. Anyway I dont really have a problm with people seeing that feat as PIS but I dont think it is. Anyway im done, ive given my explanation take it or leave it.
I will most certainly leave it. You do realize there no way anyone going to agree with you that the feat was accomplished through Punisher skills, and that not only if it not PIS, but should validate Punisher for top tier.
Originally posted by SuperiorTech
Look this does not seem to be getting anywhere PZ you called for Punisher to be moved up right? Why dont you guys vote and get the process started.
To be quite honest with you I think he goes to second tier. If he gets more of the feats I mentioned than I would vote for top tier.
I can actually understand why people see Tiger Shark vs Punisher as PIS but other points are just ridiculous.
Why do i have to explain to somebody that an opponent that has taken on Hercules, Classic Iceman, Angel and Black Widow is formidable? Why do I have to explain to that guy that obvoulsy if you can use martial arts skill against smebody that tough it denotes a highier ranking?
faceplam
Originally posted by Battlehammer
He didn’t uses skill though……he over powered a guy immensely stronger then him.Just out of curiosity what supposes feats indicate him be able to do this
Rough-house is extremely strong however his durability is quite ambiguous. He not even bullet proof.
Not if there is not a specific reason give many would not. And all other save perhaps one other person be sides your self, which think that would validate Punisher over power Tiger Shark which would then validate his increase to top tier .
Yes you did there an entire thread in which you state it numerous times and attempt to argue it with almost the entire board or at least haft. I don’t even think a single individual agreed with you.
No it didn’t you might believe it did, but it does not. I be willing to wager most everyone would agree with me that it did not.
I will most certainly leave it. You do realize there no way anyone going to agree with you that the feat was accomplished through Punisher skills, and that not only if it not PIS, but should validate Punisher for top tier.
Drop it. 😐