Ranks for MAs

Originally posted by Battlehammer
That is true, however with melee weapons, you are taught combat moves for closes quarter fighting that can also be used with out the aid of the weapon. This is not true for that of range weapons. If your an expert with a sword, you may not be the most skilled h2h fighter, but you have knowledge and teechigues that can assist you. Most melee styles of combat teach H2h combat as well which is varient of the weapons style or used to help gain advantage while closes quarters such as are used by Samurai, like judo throws, rams ect.
Go look at the thread again I change the rules. I actually would enjoy your thoughts on the matter.
Here the thing that point of the thread is MA. It not overall abilities, becuases that becomes quite ambiguous as to what qualifies as combat skills. And this would actually aid me since wolverine has a lot of unique skills such as stealth that other individuals lack. However this does not qualify as one MA abilities, because it would then allow for individuals to argue that people like spiderman who have shown little to no MA skill grounds to advance

If it's point is MA then really we should exclude skills with weapons.If they have been taught offensive maneuvers based on their training with a weapon,they should be judged based on how effective that training is withoot a weapon.

You can't just decide to factor in one extra aspect of combat and exclude all others.

Right Punisher for at least secodn tier maybe even top tier because of how hes been written lately. 😐

Originally posted by Martian_mind
If it's point is MA then really we should exclude skills with weapons.If they have been taught offensive maneuvers based on their training with a weapon,they should be judged based on how effective that training is withoot a weapon.

You can't just decide to factor in one extra aspect of combat and exclude all others.

The thing is MA styles many of which teach weapons fighting, some of which are all about the weapons they uses. Many styles were develope to combat or uses certain weapons. Skills with melee weapons is as much a part of MA as h2h combat.

I not I am using what in MA already. Almost every single style of MA teaches weapon skills in melee combat.

Range weapons are another story, many of which are not taught within the vast majority of MA, nor does one need to be trained in an MA to become an expert with them. This is not the cases with many melee weapons.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Right Punisher for at least secodn tier maybe even top tier because of how hes been written lately. 😐

have I missed something? Or were you kidding?

I mean I thought he just been using tech of late.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Is this for real?

have I missed something? Or were you kidding?

I mean I thought he just been using tech of late.

No im not kidding, in PWJ and the beginning of the current series he has top tier h2h feats. Just some of them:

1. Beats a beserk Tiger Shark part of the fight was underwater. Captain Americe did something similar with Namor.
2. Stalemates Kraven The Hunter a guy who was has beaten Black panther in h2h and in their second fight BP had to resort to using energy weapons and this was after facing several meta-humans.
3. Has a good showing against Rampage (Stu Clark in exoskeleton). The guy( Rampage) has a couple of good showings against The Champions.
4. In issue 4 he dodges machine gunfire at point blank range from highly trained genetically enhanced gunmen and kills them all with a knife.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No im not kidding, in PWJ and the beginning of the current series he has top tier h2h feats. Just some of them:

1. Beats a beserk Tiger Shark part of the fight was underwater. Captain Americe did something similar with Namor.
2. Stalemates Kraven The Hunter a guy who was has beaten Black panther in h2h and in their second fight BP had to resort to using energy weapons and this was after facing several meta-humans.
3. Has a good showing against Rampage (Stu Clark in exoskeleton). The guy( Rampage) has a couple of good showings against The Champions.
4. In issue 4 he dodges machine gunfire at point blank range from highly trained genetically enhanced gunmen and kills them all with a knife.

No way for top tier.

Top tier skill would be crazy pressure nerve points, beating or looking good through skill another top tier or in Frank's case fighting a top tier and not flat out stating he can't match their H2H ability.

Better yet a character could have some kind of noticeable upgrade like going through a training regime framed around an entire story line etc as Green Arrow and recently Logan did.

A few good bullet feats and good showings against guys whom I'm sure are not noted for their martial arts skill doesn't in any way shape or form put Frank on the same level as Batman, Shang Chi, Logan etc. :/

haermm at Punisher being top-tier.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
In issue 4 he dodges machine gunfire at point blank range from highly trained genetically enhanced gunmen and kills them all with a knife.

Yeah, that was awesome. Dodging sniper's fire was sweet, too.

Sorry but your logic is really faulty

Originally posted by Warrior18
No way for top tier.

Top tier skill would be crazy pressure nerve points, beating or looking good through skill another top tier or in Frank's case fighting a top tier and not flat out stating he can't match their H2H ability.

Better yet a character could have some kind of noticeable upgrade like going through a training regime framed around an entire story line etc as Green Arrow and recently Logan did.

A few good bullet feats and good showings against guys whom I'm sure are not noted for their martial arts skill doesn't in any way shape or form put Frank on the same level as Batman, Shang Chi, Logan etc. :/

Um Kraven The Hunter is top tier did you miss the part were I said hes beaten Black Panther and in there second fight BP had to use energy weapons to beat him.

You do realise that in order to be top tier you dont have to just fight martial artists? you do know who The Champions are. The Champions are Classic Iceman, Angel, Black Widow and Hercules and Rampage has looked good against them he even went toe-to-toe with Hercules and stunned him. So what you're trying to tell me is that because Rampage isnt a martial artist Frank castle using his h2h skill doesnt count?

You are compltely missing the point about Tiger Shark. Tiger Shark isnt a martial artist but Frank Castle survived an attack from him underwater. Not only was he at a disadvantage but Tiger Shark was amped even more. Its an impressive feat.

Its faulty logic, feats dont just have to be against other MAs but other powerful meta-humans. Thats like saying Cap hurting Korvac doesnt count because Korvac isnt a martial artist, when the point is Korvac is extremely powerful.

Dodging gunfire from enhanced gunman who are highly trained is something that Captain America or Spiderman would do...and it was point blank range. Punisher doesnt have chi ampage on Shangs level or SSS or a radar sense.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No im not kidding, in PWJ and the beginning of the current series he has top tier h2h feats. Just some of them:

1. Beats a beserk Tiger Shark part of the fight was underwater. Captain Americe did something similar with Namor.
2. Stalemates Kraven The Hunter a guy who was has beaten Black panther in h2h and in their second fight BP had to resort to using energy weapons and this was after facing several meta-humans.
3. Has a good showing against Rampage (Stu Clark in exoskeleton). The guy( Rampage) has a couple of good showings against The Champions.
4. In issue 4 he dodges machine gunfire at point blank range from highly trained genetically enhanced gunmen and kills them all with a knife.

That pretty good, though again he kinda inconistent. With prep he got beat by beast and I mean pre fur beast, which is less then impressive.

can't really comment on this one, don't know enough.

I thought that was off pannel? Also not sure knife qualifies as MA H2H.

Impressive though they may be I do not believe theses instances deserve a move up. However if they countinue and espicially vs consistent guys I would be incline to agree with you for second tier.

I mean Logan recently had some crazy feats of skill like defeat four chi ampers through skill, bating around russian superhuman group ect., But I don't suggest he be moved up unless such would countinue.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Better yet a character could have some kind of noticeable upgrade like going through a training regime framed around an entire story line etc as Green Arrow and recently Logan did.

A few good bullet feats and good showings against guys whom I'm sure are not noted for their martial arts skill doesn't in any way shape or form put Frank on the same level as Batman, Shang Chi, Logan etc. :/

I gotta agree here.

Originally posted by Mindset
What's the difference between uber tier and top tier?

There fighters who skills are superior to that of even the fighters who are consider the best in the world.

They have abilities that even exceed that of the Top tier. Ogun for instances through his complete mastery of martial arts he was able to achieve immortaility. He able to take over almost anyone body and either take there skills or implant some of his own. he also ghost who can take form. He the greatest swordsmaster to ever live and is over 1000 years old. he also became a demon due to his mastery. He also has smacked around a Top tier and made him look silly in comparision. He has also able due to his extreme knowledge of the darkest of martial arts to transport others to the shadow realm. He also can within an hour or less if he so pleases if not mistaken can grant individual over a life time of MA knowledge which he did to kitty. amoung other abilities. There just master of MA who have pritty much exceeded all mortal limitations in most cases

Not sure Stick should be there according to Jrodslam by Daredevil volume two Daredevil or Stick stated that Stick had nothing more to teach Daredevil, implying that Daredevil surpassed him though maybe that was simply ignored within comics

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Tiger Shark if not mistaken has not been what he uses to be in quite awhile. I pretty sure his last several fights he got punked badly. Also did'nt Punisher do something rediculous like choke him out?

That pretty good, though again he kinda inconistent. With prep he got beat by beast and I mean pre fur beast, which is less then impressive.

can't really comment on this one, don't know enough.

I thought that was off pannel? Also not sure knife qualifies as MA H2H.

Impressive though they may be I do not believe theses instances deserve a move up. However if they countinue and espicially vs consistent guys I would be incline to agree with you for second tier.

I mean Logan recently had some crazy feats of skill like defeat four chi ampers through skill, bating around russian superhuman group ect., But I don't suggest he be moved up unless such would countinue.

And frank was problaby holding back 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
[B]Sorry but your logic is really faulty

Um Kraven The Hunter is top tier did you miss the part were I said hes beaten Black Panther and in there second fight BP had to use energy weapons to beat him.

The only Kraven I know is the low superhuman expert hunter who wears lots of fur. I really really don't think he is an A list MA.
Besides he sounds as if he fluctuates like hell from what I've heard on the boards.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You do realise that in order to be top tier you dont have to just fight martial artists? you do know who The Champions are. The Champions are Classic Iceman, Angel, Black Widow and Hercules and Rampage has looked good against them he even went toe-to-toe with Hercules and stunned him. So what you're trying to tell me is that because Rampage isnt a martial artist Frank castle using his h2h skill doesnt count?

I didn't say it doesn't count. It was a decent feat from what I recall. Fact is last time I checked Stu Clarke isn't a martial artist or trained fighter of any sort. So Frank 'out skilling' him isn't really going to require the kind of H2H ability you seem to think it would.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You are compltely missing the point about Tiger Shark. Tiger Shark isnt a martial artist but Frank Castle survived an attack from him underwater. Not only was he at a disadvantage but Tiger Shark was amped even more. Its an impressive feat.

Again surviving against a relative brick doesn't in any way denote A grade martial arts skill. I fail to see how one or two recent showings against physically much stronger much tougher yet highly (and I must stress) highly unskilled opponents means anything.It really doesn't tell us more about Frank's H2H skill than we already knew. Its good but not top tier.

Anyway I seem to remember Frank overpowering him in water in that fight. Pretty crazy.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its faulty logic, feats dont just have to be against other MAs but other powerful meta-humans. Thats like saying Cap hurting Korvac doesnt count because Korvac isnt a martial artist, when the point is Korvac is extremely powerful.

Much of the time when we are talking about skill yes they do. Otherwise anyone who has ever managed to look good and/or survive against physically powerful meta-humans would automatically be an elite level fighter.Most street levelers when they come up against such opponents initially put up a bit of a fight. Are they automatically uber skilled?
How does being able to not get hit by or survive against big physically powerful but occasionally dumb and almost always horribly unskilled characters denote A class martial arts ability?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Dodging gunfire from enhanced gunman who are highly trained is something that Captain America or Spiderman would do...and it was point blank range. Punisher doesnt have chi ampage on Shangs level or SSS or a radar sense.

So............Frank is fast and can dodge bullets.............

I have always thought of Frank as being a solid second tier anyway.

As side note there are plenty of people from tier 2 who are in a much better position than Punisher for a claim in the top tier.

Omg that worse then when he put Spiderman in a head lock or some such. That ridiculous. Come on Alf man that clearly PIS. That not similar to the Captain America thing at all. Captain America hit the mind control devices to defeat Namor.

I did not mean it to come off so harsh, but come on man, pleases tell me you simply forgot what transpired.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Captain America hit the mind control devices to defeat Namor.

No he didnt. What Cap did could be classified as PIS as well. At the end of the day if hes been able to floor US Agent with a punch and hurt Venom with a punch, hes capable of koing Tiger Shark.

By the way im refering to when Cap koed him underwater, not when he KOed him outside. That feat isnt PIS its just that he does it more regularly.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No he didnt. What Cap did could be classified as PIS as well. At the end of the day if hes been able to floor US Agent with a punch and hurt Venom with a punch, hes capable of koing Tiger Shark.