Ranks for MAs

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Look just forget it. You dont have to agree but you're just being argumentative.

In this instance im not refering to him breaking his bones im refering to him being able to KO him. Hell ive never seen him aim for weak points and they look like standard punches. Like I said you just pick and choose what makes sense. Wolverine shouldnt able to KO Roughouse.

I never said he aimed for weak point. Did you miss the fact when I mention, that Rough House is not even bullet proof...........

I am not nit picking a thing. Rough-House does not posses normal brick levels of durability. He much stronger, then he is durable. Log

Can anybody else see how ive decided that I dont want to discuss it anymore but he continually wants to keep going on about it? You cant even agree to disagree with this guy.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
Look this does not seem to be getting anywhere PZ you called for Punisher to be moved up right? Why dont you guys vote and get the process started.

on a side note PZ saying he taken on herc, black widow ect, with out showing any evidence make it kinda of hard for anyone to agree with you. I mean lets be honest here your interruptions can be much different then what was shown or you make general claim like implying Punisher beat lets say Tiger Shark through skill, when what is shown on panel is not that at all, but you rationalize it to be inorder to assume the feat as evidence for the objective you want accomplished. You are not the only one to do this nor will you be the last, but to get angery, becuase people dont agree with were you think he should be placed and they wish to see evidences for why, is quite understandable given how you have been shown to view certain events.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Can anybody else see how ive decided that I dont want to discuss it anymore but he continually wants to keep going on about it? You cant even agree to disagree with this guy.

facepalm

just kidding

though there more grounds for wolverine and or iron fist to be moved up another tier then there is for punisher,

Anyway Punisher for second tier, I'll see how the series goes before actually voting for top tier.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
just kidding

though there more grounds for wolverine and or iron fist to be moved up another tier then there is for punisher,

Punisher is currently third tier..........

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher is currently third tier..........

IF recently receive a boost to his skill and abilities in pritty recent arc which was one of the purposes of the arc. Wolverine recently received a boost to his skill and trained with a very gifted master name master po. The entire arc purposes was to increases Logan skill.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Exactly you dont even know who im talking about. Im talking about Aloysha Karvinoff the son of Kraven. Could you pleas give examples of his fluctuating skill level before actually trying to disregard feats please.

Well I thought you meant the only Kraven I have ever known which was the classic old school one. Apparently he lost to hairless Beast.

How about scans of this elite top tier skill from Kraven's son then.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* You missed the point entirely. Rampage is a formidable opponent, he doesnt have martial art skill but his exoskeleton and brawling skills compensate him from his lack of skill. Frank had to use martial art skill against him. How on earth did you miss the point that hes taken on The Champions? One of those individuals was Black Widow who is second tier and couldnt handle him.

Brawling skills he's a techno wiz!!!
I saw the fight they had during the skrull attack and it really wasn't anything above what the average good street leveler does against physically strong characters in terms of skill.
It is not hard to outfight an overpowered, (and when it comes to H2H prowess) idiot. Hell I remember Frank basically almost overpowering the guy when he slammed him into the wall.

Did they have another fight before that?

With regards to the champions I'm still at a loss as to how a guy who as you say did well against Hercules and Iceman should have trouble with Frank Castle in a melee brawl.

Personally I don't really think Black Widow is better than Frank in H2H terms anyway.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes it does because as stated earlier on superhuman stats compensate people for alck of skill. Punisher fought him underwater where Tiger Shark was even stronger and had superhuman speed.

Well I'm just remembering who Tiger Shark is and more I do the more that feat seems to get dumber and dumber. Seriously the guy could have just flinched and Frank would have flown off.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well for starters I dont even think read Punisher and you're trying to tell me about what you know. Also what you are doing is sepearting the feats and instead of taking them as a whole taking them individually.

Erm lets see I have just about every Garth Ennis Punisher from the 2000 series onwards collected in graphic novel form. I have all the current Dark Reign issues to date. I have some of the volume 2 War Journal issues too.I am familiar with some of his old stuff too.

May not be a huge collection but it is decent and relevant to how Frank is now...........

'As a whole'? I'm still not sure how they prove Frank is top tier on a par with the likes of Iron Fist, Elektra etc.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL of course using martial art skill againt a meta-human denotes you are highly skilled. Powers compensate you for skill how the hell do you think Stu Clark manged to own Black Widow? Obvoulsy if a secind teir fighter couldnt beat Stu somebody woiuld have to be more skilled to beat him....good grief.

As stated I don't really rate Black Widow as being better than Frank.

Secondly street characters routinely do well or don't get squished when fighting metas. Why? Usually because the metas are idiots (comparitively) who can't fight. You really really don't have to be Shang Chi to beat up some enhanced brawler. 2nd tier,3rd tier hell maybe even 4th tier characters have their feats against strong characters.
Top tiers need to have something that separates them from the other MAs,usually this means taking on and beating them or displaying the kind of martial arts knowledge Frank has never even come close to.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ther point is it was an uber bullet dodging feat, that is actually better than the vast majority of Batmans.

Well that has to do with raw speed does it not?

Anyway, shame the vast majority of Batman's bullet dodging feats are better than the vast majority of Frank's. 😉

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
To tell the truth I think hes second tier but the fact you are trying to illogically downplay feats is making me argue. I mean hell even when I give an example of him fighting a top tier you come out with excuses.

I'm only downplaying them because you are in my opinion attributing them wrongly to top tier MA skill when other characters can pull off the same stuff.

Which top tier has he fought against then and won through pure H2H skill?
If he did this more often than not then we wouldn't have an issue.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
yup and? You were basing the reason for him to be raised based off feats you believe were of deserving of 2nd tier or even firs tier MA's. that recently happen.

IF recently receive a boost to his skill and abilities in pritty recent arc which was one of the purposes of the arc. Wolverine recently received a boost to his skill and trained with a very gifted master name master po. The entire arc purposes was to increases Logan skill.

Not sure what your point is but from 2006 Punishers feats have been muh better that implies hes been written to have highier capabilities.

Hell to be quite honest even if you where to look at his whole career he culd be classifed as second tier.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not sure what your point is but from 2006 Punishers feats have been muh better that implies hes been written to have highier capabilities.

Hell to be quite honest even if you where to look at his whole career he culd be classifed as second tier.

My point is they had an entire arc which purposes was to increase there skill. If anyone were to be increased a tier it would be them

Originally posted by Battlehammer
My point is they had an entire arc which purposes was to increase there skill. If anyone were to be increased a tier it would be them

Yeah and maybe they should get a skill increase then, so that means Punisher shouldnt when hes had a series and a bit?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah and maybe they should get a skill increase then, so that means Punisher shouldnt when hes had a series and a bit?

depends on what was shown.

Wolverine and Iron Fist entire point of there arcs was to increases there skill. That was the foundation of the arcs.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
depends on what was shown.

Wolverine and Iron Fist entire point of there arcs was to increases there skill. That was the foundation of the arcs.

Great so what has this go to do with Punisher and does this somehow mean he shouldnt be moved from third tier to sceond tier? You really havent answered that question.

Also a series is longer than an arc.

I am saying that there are characters who deserve in my opinion to be brought up a tier more so then Punisher. IF and Wolverine have both had arc's designed for the solo purposes of increasing there skills and still I wonder if they should be increased a tier. What has Punisher done to deserve an increase in a tier? I don't recall him having an arc designed to increase his martial art skills, nor anything that would deserve such an increases

I know series are longer then arcs

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I am saying that there are characters who deserve in my opinion to be brought up a tier more so then Punisher. IF and Wolverine have both had arc's designed for the solo purposes of increasing there skills and still I wonder if they should be increased a tier. What has Punisher done to deserve an increase in a tier? I don't recall him having an arc designed to increase his martial art skills, nor anything that would deserve such an increases

So lets see if I can get this straight you're not just arguing about him being top tier but him being second tier as well?

Yes I am argueing against Punisher placement in second tier, and there no way I agree with him be placed in top tier.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Yes I am argueing against Punisher placement in second tier, and there no way I agree with him be placed in top tier.

Ok what the hell I dont have anything else better to do, why shouldnt he be in second tier?