Ranks for MAs

Originally posted by Warrior18

How about scans of this elite top tier skill from Kraven's son then.

Read BP 6 and 7 (priests run). He beats BP in issue 6, he loses to BP in issue 7 but BP was better equipped. He has a better showing gainst The Hood than Wolverine does because he takes down The Hood without getting wounded and Hood doesnt let off a shot.

Hes taken on Spiderman but I dont know what happened because I havnet read the issues.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Brawling skills he's a techno wiz!!!

I dont think so, if he was just a techno wiz he wouldnt have survived being attacked by The Hand.

Originally posted by Warrior18

I saw the fight they had during the skrull attack and it really wasn't anything above what the average good street leveler does against physically strong characters in terms of skill.
It is not hard to outfight an overpowered, (and when it comes to H2H prowess) idiot. Hell I remember Frank basically almost overpowering the guy when he slammed him into the wall.

LOL I just spent a paragraph explaining to you how not every single idiot can take Rampage down....you know that was the point of the Champions example.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Did they have another fight before that?

Yeah and Frank was not fighting back because he felt guilty about killing his Gf. However when he found out that Stu had killed a cop it was on.

Originally posted by Warrior18

With regards to the champions I'm still at a loss as to how a guy who as you say did well against Hercules and Iceman should have trouble with Frank Castle in a melee brawl.

Personally I don't really think Black Widow is better than Frank in H2H terms anyway.

I dont care. The fact is that its canon and it happened. Maybe the explanation is that Punisher is better than Black Widow who was outclassed by Rampage in his suit.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Well I'm just remembering who Tiger Shark is and more I do the more that feat seems to get dumber and dumber. Seriously the guy could have just flinched and Frank would have flown off.

I dont feel strongly enough about this point to keep on debating it. Hell im having a hard enough time with more basic feats and concepts.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Erm lets see I have just about every Garth Ennis Punisher from the 2000 series onwards collected in graphic novel form. I have all the current Dark Reign issues to date. I have some of the volume 2 War Journal issues too.I am familiar with some of his old stuff too.

May not be a huge collection but it is decent and relevant to how Frank is now...........

'As a whole'? I'm still not sure how they prove Frank is top tier on a par with the likes of Iron Fist, Elektra etc.

No thats not alot. Interestingly enough another Punsiher fan whos read alot of Punisher stated the samething I did about the bullet dodging feat ie hes faster than usual.

Originally posted by Warrior18

As stated I don't really rate Black Widow as being better than Frank.

So what? Shes second tier.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Secondly street characters routinely do well or don't get squished when fighting metas. Why? Usually because the metas are idiots (comparitively) who can't fight.

Look im not trying to be rude but these are the sort of things that make me insult posters. You do realise that if Rampage can take on BW and three other metas that BW isnt a match for Rampage? Did you see the point I was trying to make? Oh and she also needed to get her arse saved from being Koed by Rampage. So clearly he can fight and hes not idiot....which ive been trying to explain.

Originally posted by Warrior18

You really really don't have to be Shang Chi to beat up some enhanced brawler. 2nd tier,3rd tier hell maybe even 4th tier characters have their feats against strong characters.

Top tiers need to have something that separates them from the other MAs,usually this means taking on and beating them or displaying the kind of martial arts knowledge Frank has never even come close to.

I dunno maybe looking good against a meta who completely outclassed a second tier fighter and was too much for for classic Iceman and Angel perhaps.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Well that has to do with raw speed does it not?

Yeah of course is is. It obvoulsy has nothing to do with reflexes which he got from his martial art training. Learning to dodge is part of martial arts.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Anyway, shame the vast majority of Batman's bullet dodging feats are better than the vast majority of Frank's. 😉

You missed the point again. Spiderman once had cosmic powers if we were going to classify him at the time he was written he would have a highier ranking than Wonder Man who has a career of having more powerful feats, because at present Spdierman is more powerful....which is why I emphasised PWJ series and the current one. The point being made he is currently more powerful than he used to be.

Originally posted by Warrior18

I'm only downplaying them because you are in my opinion attributing them wrongly to top tier MA skill when other characters can pull off the same stuff.

Which top tier has he fought against then and won through pure H2H skill?
If he did this more often than not then we wouldn't have an issue.

The problem is you dont know about the characters being discussed and you dont understand points that are being made. Im not even really bothered if you dont think hes top tier my problem is the excuses you are making for the current feats.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL I just spent a paragraph explaining to you how not every single idiot can take Rampage down....you know that was the point of the Champions example.

Yeah and Frank was not fighting back because he felt guilty about killing his Gf. However when he found out that Stu had killed a cop it was on.

May I ask how long ago the Champions fight was? It sounds to me as if Stu fluctuated big time. Seriously as you say he stunned Hercules.

Actually I've just reread the no holding back Frank/Stu fight. It really isn't top tier skill to me from Frank. :/
If I had a scanner I would put the scans up and let other posters be the judge of that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No thats not alot. Interestingly enough another Punsiher fan whos read alot of Punisher stated the samething I did about the bullet dodging feat ie hes faster than usual.

As I said it is decent. :/

Certainly adequate to know how Frank has been portrayed in recent years. Also when we consider the various times he has appeared in other character's comics.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So what? Shes second tier.

Meh. Characters can be on the same tier but still have different abilities (low to mid to high second tier).

I seem to recall them having a fairly brief fight in the past?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Look im not trying to be rude but these are the sort of things that make me insult posters. You do realise that if Rampage can take on BW and three other metas that BW isnt a match for Rampage? Did you see the point I was trying to make? Oh and she also needed to get her arse saved from being Koed by Rampage. So clearly he can fight and hes not idiot....which ive been trying to explain.

Do you have scans of the Rampage Champions fight?

Seriously do you really think what Frank did against Stu isn't anything guys like Nightwing or Bullseye couldn't do?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dunno maybe looking good against a meta who completely outclassed a second tier fighter and was too much for for classic Iceman and Angel perhaps.

I really don't think that Frank doing ok against a guy who as you say beat the Black Widow once, from the sounds of it quite a while ago, puts him at the MA level of Iron Fist, Shang Chi etc.

I feel the vast majority of posters will agree with me on this not only on this forum but on any other. :/

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah of course is is. It obvoulsy has nothing to do with reflexes which he got from his martial art training. Learning to dodge is part of martial arts.

If we went solely by that measure Nightwing or DD would be uber tier.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You missed the point again. Spiderman once had cosmic powers if we were going to classify him at the time he was written he would have a highier ranking than Wonder Man who has a career of having more powerful feats, because at present Spdierman is more powerful....which is why I emphasised PWJ series and the current one. The point being made he is currently more powerful than he used to be.

I was just messing with that comment anyway but I see what you mean.

I just need to see how Frank does against confirmed top tiers in one on one combat which I'm sure will occur at some point soon.

If he can fight them and not be shown to be overawed or inferior skillwise then I won't have a problem. 🙂

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The problem is you dont know about the characters being discussed and you dont understand points that are being made. Im not even really bothered if you dont think hes top tier my problem is the excuses you are making for the current feats.

I do know the points being made and I'm sure I won't be the only one who feels the way I do about the reasons you are giving.

As I've said you should ask around the forums to find out what others think. I really don't think they will agree with your reasons.

Out of interest whom would you propose gets demoted from the top tier in order for Frank to be placed there?

Originally posted by Warrior18
May I ask how long ago the Champions fight was? It sounds to me as if Stu fluctuated big time. Seriously as you say he stunned Hercules.

That was actually late 70s however and note this...even nowhere days he would probably be too much for Black Widow.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Actually I've just reread the no holding back Frank/Stu fight. It really isn't top tier skill to me from Frank. :/
If I had a scanner I would put the scans up and let other posters be the judge of that.

LOL thats probably because he didnt do anything fancy like pressure points. It was a short fight and nothing fancy happened but the point is that he did better against him than a second tier fighter.

Originally posted by Warrior18

As I said it is decent. :/

Certainly adequate to know how Frank has been portrayed in recent years. Also when we consider the various times he has appeared in other character's comics.

You might be right but I can see the problem isn't that you haven't even read enough. If you think Punisher dodging machine gunfire from point blank from highly trained enhanced humans isn't anything different from what hes usually capable of then the problem isnt that you haven't read enough.

Part of it is lack of reading becase you would know that theres no way Garth Einnis would have Punisher stalemate Kraven The Hunter.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Meh. Characters can be on the same tier but still have different abilities (low to mid to high second tier).

Anyway it certainly isn't bad to point out that he outclassed a second tier fighter.

Originally posted by Warrior18

I seem to recall them having a fairly brief fight in the past?

Yeah he was kicking her arse.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Do you have scans of the Rampage Champions fight?

Seriously do you really think what Frank did against Stu isn't anything guys like Nightwing or Bullseye couldn't do?

Maybe, maybe not. Punisher has defeated Bullseye in h2h twice.

Originally posted by Warrior18

I really don't think that Frank doing ok against a guy who as you say beat the Black Widow once, from the sounds of it quite a while ago, puts him at the MA level of Iron Fist, Shang Chi etc.

I feel the vast majority of posters will agree with me on this not only on this forum but on any other. :/

No on its own no, but with other examples possibly.

Originally posted by Warrior18

If we went solely by that measure Nightwing or DD would be uber tier.

Well I didnt say it was an uber tier feat I said it was top tier. Im not going soley by that am I, but that still doesnt change the fact it shows extreme martial art skill.

I dont even think that Nightwing has a better dodging feat. The fact of the matter what Punisher did is something that Spiderman would do, and even Spiderman on at least one ocassion has stated that he needed to be careful dodging bullets from well-trained gunmen.

Originally posted by Warrior18

I was just messing with that comment anyway but I see what you mean.

I just need to see how Frank does against confirmed top tiers in one on one combat which I'm sure will occur at some point soon.

If he can fight them and not be shown to be overawed or inferior skillwise then I won't have a problem. 🙂

Ermm Kraven The Hunter?

Originally posted by Warrior18

I do know the points being made and I'm sure I won't be the only one who feels the way I do about the reasons you are giving.

As I've said you should ask around the forums to find out what others think. I really don't think they will agree with your reasons.

Out of interest whom would you propose gets demoted from the top tier in order for Frank to be placed there?

Not really no because yet again you have just shown a prime example of not being able to comprehend the points being made. I have already stated that I think hes second tier and even said that to you in black and white.

The point im making is that these feats are arguably top tier but he needs more of them. My beef with you is that you seem to be finding excuses to deny it. Sure you have a point about that fight being old, but you seemed to have trouble grasping points prior to that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Read BP 6 and 7 (priests run). He beats BP in issue 6, he loses to BP in issue 7 but BP was better equipped. He has a better showing gainst The Hood than Wolverine does because he takes down The Hood without getting wounded and Hood doesnt let off a shot.

Yea and he also did not have a demon amping him up either huge difference in current hood and past hood.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok what the hell I dont have anything else better to do, why shouldnt he be in second tier?

Alf are you know trying to say Punisher superior dodger to Night wing and DD based of a single feat. What the issue I got to see this.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Yea and he also did not have a demon amping him up either huge difference in current hood and past hood.

He got shot before he turned into a demon.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
because he does not deserve it and he not as skilled at MA as a second tier should be.

Obvoulsy one reason why you don think hes second tier is because I said he is, are there ant other reasons why you think hes not?

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Alf are you know trying to say Punisher superior dodger to Night wing and DD based of a single feat. What the issue I got to see this.

Nope.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He got shot before he turned into a demon.

Obvoulsy one reason why you don think hes second tier is because I said he is, are there ant other reasons why you think hes not?

Nope.

He does not have to turn demon. The powers always in him. Logan getting shot makes Kraven more impressive how? Logan did not even attempt to dodge. He also would have killed hood if hood was not back by powerful magic.

No I really could careless what you think on the matter when Punisher concered. I still in utter amazement on you trying to uses that Tiger Sharl feat as evidence for Punisher move to top tier.

What the issue number of the bullet dodging feat I am curious to see this. I have notice no one has posted it or mention the issue number

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

LOL thats probably because he didnt do anything fancy like pressure points. It was a short fight and nothing fancy happened but the point is that he did better against him than a second tier fighter.

Frank had to resort to blinding Stu with lighting wires and he really wasn't doing that well. :/

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You might be right but I can see the problem isn't that you haven't even read enough. If you think Punisher dodging machine gunfire from point blank from highly trained enhanced humans isn't anything different from what hes usually capable of then the problem isnt that you haven't read enough.

Part of it is lack of reading becase you would know that theres no way Garth Einnis would have Punisher stalemate Kraven The Hunter.

I don't think I said Frank dodging the gunfire was anything similar to what he has done before.I acknowledge it was a fast feat and it clearly shows Frank to be faster than usual.I believed him being able to use skill against heavies like Rampage isn't too different to what he was already capable off.

I was and am well aware of Garth Ennis's somewhat restrained featwise Punisher.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway it certainly isn't bad to point out that he outclassed a second tier fighter.

I'm not at all insinuating anything but if you could it would be appreciated if we had scans of the Black widow/Stu fight.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah he was kicking her arse.

Same as above.I will check the respect thread for them.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Maybe, maybe not. Punisher has defeated Bullseye in h2h twice.

Well then we also have other guys in tier two like Green Arrow, Red Hood, Silver Samurai, Bucky (as Cap and Winter Soldier),Agent X even tier three listed guys such as MoonKnight whom I could easily imagine doing what Frank did against Stu.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well I didnt say it was an uber tier feat I said it was top tier. Im not going soley by that am I, but that still doesnt change the fact it shows extreme martial art skill.

I dont even think that Nightwing has a better dodging feat. The fact of the matter what Punisher did is something that Spiderman would do, and even Spiderman on at least one ocassion has stated that he needed to be careful dodging bullets from well-trained gunmen.

I still think dodging the gunfire simply shows a very fast athletic Punisher as opposed to pure H2H skill.

For instance I wouldn't use Batman avoiding being shot Matrix style as evidence of H2H skill.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ermm Kraven The Hunter?

He beat tier 2 BP yes?

When he did so was it close/a stomp etc?

Was it explicitly shown that Kraven was more skilled or was it just a fight between two guys with similar stats and a similar H2H ability with one winning? eg Bats v DD H2H in my opinion the winner out of those two wouldn't necessarily be more skilled.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not really no because yet again you have just shown a prime example of not being able to comprehend the points being made. I have already stated that I think hes second tier and even said that to you in black and white.

The point im making is that these feats are arguably top tier but he needs more of them. My beef with you is that you seem to be finding excuses to deny it. Sure you have a point about that fight being old, but you seemed to have trouble grasping points prior to that.

Lol I thought the whole point of this was you thought the current feats show Frank to now be top tier?

So you think Frank is second tier but the recent feats are top tier however he needs more of them to be established,yes? Fair enough.

OK.My alleged misunderstanding doesn't really hurt my argument at all;

Frank is second tier in my opinion and his recent feat regarding Stu is not indicative of a top tier MA skill feat at all.
Namely because I think in H2H other guys (eg Nightwing,GA,MoonKnight,Bullseye,Jason Todd,Bucky) could easily do the same or possibly better. I also don't think Stu is anywhere on the same level as he was in the other fights simply because of the way you pointed out he stunned Herc,walked all over Black Widow, did well against Ice Man Angel etc.

I don't rate Kraven as being on a par skill wise with Cap, Bats, IF, Shang Chi etc so I don't think he is top tier.

His recent bullet feats are not top tier MA skill feats since to me that just means Frank is fast or rather faster. Other characters have amazing bullet feats but usually that isn't chalked up to H2H skill.

Which is what I have been arguing.

Originally posted by Warrior18
Frank had to resort to blinding Stu with lighting wires and he really wasn't doing that well. :/

Good Lord are you actually arguing that Punisher wasn't doing that well? Why are you assuming that he had to use the wires.

Originally posted by Warrior18

I don't think I said Frank dodging the gunfire was anything similar to what he has done before.I acknowledge it was a fast feat and it clearly shows Frank to be faster than usual.[B]I believed him being able to use skill against heavies like Rampage isn't too different to what he was already capable off. [/B]

Um you didnt specify what you meant you made an ambigous statement so its not like it was obvious.

Originally posted by Warrior18

I was and am well aware of Garth Ennis's somewhat restrained featwise Punisher.

Compared to what? 😬

Originally posted by Warrior18

I'm not at all insinuating anything but if you could it would be appreciated if we had scans of the Black widow/Stu fight.

I dont have them.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Well then we also have other guys in tier two like Green Arrow, Red Hood, Silver Samurai, Bucky (as Cap and Winter Soldier),Agent X even tier three listed guys such as MoonKnight whom I could easily imagine doing what Frank did against Stu.

Well heres the thing. Im not going to deny its not possible but at least I got evidence instead of just an opinion.

Originally posted by Warrior18

I still think dodging the gunfire simply shows a very fast athletic Punisher as opposed to pure H2H skill.

For instance I wouldn't use Batman avoiding being shot Matrix style as evidence of H2H skill.

That really is faulty logic. You do realise martial arts doesnt just involve hitting people but dodging people, so therefore dodging ability is an example of martial art skill regardless of what you think.

Originally posted by Warrior18

He beat tier 2 BP yes?

When he did so was it close/a stomp etc?

He beat 2 tier Bp who really should be in top tier i'll list reasons later.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Was it explicitly shown that Kraven was more skilled or was it just a fight between two guys with similar stats and a similar H2H ability with one winning? eg Bats v DD H2H in my opinion the winner out of those two wouldn't necessarily be more skilled.

BP put up a good fight but in the end Kraven was just too tough.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Frank is second tier in my opinion and his recent feat regarding Stu is not indicative of a top tier MA skill feat at all.
Namely because I think in H2H other guys (eg Nightwing,GA,MoonKnight,Bullseye,Jason Todd,Bucky) could easily do the same or possibly better.

I tell you what how about you give me examples of second tier fighters doing that to Stu instead of just speculating?

Originally posted by Warrior18

I also don't think Stu is anywhere on the same level as he was in the other fights simply because of the way you pointed out he stunned Herc,walked all over Black Widow, did well against Ice Man Angel etc.

None of that even makes sense now you're looking for anything no matter how remote. Anyway Stu looked like he would have possibly beat Punisher in the end based on that he would still probably beat BW.

Originally posted by Warrior18

I don't rate Kraven as being on a par skill wise with Cap, Bats, IF, Shang Chi etc so I don't think he is top tier.

Thats a shame because hes beaten a top tier fighter and that fighter had to resort to using better weapons to beat him second time around.

Originally posted by Warrior18

His recent bullet feats are not top tier MA skill feats since to me that just means Frank is fast or rather faster. Other characters have amazing bullet feats but usually that isn't chalked up to H2H skill.

Which is what I have been arguing.

Its common sense that its martail art skill because dodging is part of martial art skill and if they dont have superhuman stats it obvoulsy comes from training.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
He does not have to turn demon. The powers always in him. Logan getting shot makes Kraven more impressive how?

Errrr because kraven didnt get shot?

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Logan did not even attempt to dodge. He also would have killed hood if hood was not back by powerful magic.

Neither did Kraven he just took out Red Hood before he could let off a shot. Wolverine tried to take him down but got shot in the process.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

No I really could careless what you think on the matter when Punisher concered. I still in utter amazement on you trying to uses that Tiger Sharl feat as evidence for Punisher move to top tier.

Then get lost.

Voting for Cyclops and Storm to be bumped from 4th Tier to 3rd.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Errrr because kraven didnt get shot?

Neither did Kraven he just took out Red Hood before he could let off a shot. Wolverine tried to take him down but got shot in the process.

Then get lost.

really lets see this, again not back by powerful demon.

no I will stay.

Cyclops definetley shouldn't be in the 4th tier, he has been in combat for the better part of his entire life, Holds more than one black belt and would prolly rip Timmy Drake a new one. He's atleast "Highly skilled", he just happens to be in a team where he's not the designated scrapper, but we know he can whoop some ass.

ALTHOUGH, i couldn't include him in the same catagory as Blade, which is why i vote for Blade to be bumped up to Master. i mean, BLADE, two tiers from bottom. SRSLY?

imo , ofcourse.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
How that more impressive the hood he faced was not back by a powerful demon?

really lets see this, again not back by powerful demon.

no I will stay.

Again Wolverine got shot before Hood turned into Demon. Kraven didnt dodge gunfire either they both did the same thing ie attempted to take out the target before he mounted an attack.

Kraven did better because Hood didnt even let off a shot and was taken down, before Hood turned into a Demon Wolverien got his huts blown off.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Cyclops definetley shouldn't be in the 4th tier, he has been in combat for the better part of his entire life, Holds more than one black belt and would prolly rip Timmy Drake a new one. He's atleast "Highly skilled", he just happens to be in a team where he's not the designated scrapper, but we know he can whoop some ass.

ALTHOUGH, i couldn't include him in the same catagory as Blade, which is why i vote for Blade to be bumped up to Master. i mean, BLADE, two tiers from bottom. SRSLY?

imo , ofcourse.

..wheres Blade 4th tier?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again Wolverine got shot before Hood turned into Demon. Kraven didnt dodge gunfire either they both did the same thing ie attempted to take out the target before he mounted an attack.

..wheres Blade 4th tier?

no, sorry, what i meant was, if you bumped Scott up, you'd have to bump blade up to be 1 tier higher than him, thats all i meant.

Originally posted by Juk3n
no, sorry, what i meant was, if you bumped Scott up, you'd have to bump blade up to be 1 tier higher, thats all i meant.

Why is there some stupid rule system? I mght ahve to take this hit over again.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Why is there some stupid rule system? I mght ahve to take this hit over again.

no, i simply believe that Blade is a tier above Scott, but Scott is a tier too low. Only voicing an opinion.

Originally posted by Juk3n
no, i simply believe that Blade is a tier above Scott, but Scott is a tier too low. Only voicing an opinion.

LOL look at my typos. Sorry mate wasnt actually having a go at you I just misunderstood what you said. 👆