Ranks for MAs

List update.

Current Hierarchy

Cosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun, Thanos

Uber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Ogun, Stick

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon, Green Arrow, Karnak, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Sabretooth, Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, X-23

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Arsenal, Bane, Blade, Dr Strange, Hercules, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Night Thrasher, Midnighter, Punisher, Psylocke, Robin, Shadowcat, US Agent

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Gambit, Misty Knight, Mystique, The Question, Starfire, Storm, Thing

Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 4 (Nataku, V, Soljer and I)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 2 (V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)

Comments:
-One open Marvel Top Tier spot. Two open Indie/Other spots.
-Added Hercules, Gambit, Dr Strange, David Cain, Ravager, Karnak, and Winter Soldier. Objections to their placement?
-Other proposed changes?

Dont understand why Kingpin is in third tier either. Good showings against Cap and DD and has beaten DD before. 🙄

Whining is unnecessary. If you want to propose that Kingpin be moved in the same category as David Cain, Elektra, Black Canary and Nick Fury then do so. 😬

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Whining is unnecessary. If you want to propose that Kingpin be moved in the same category as David Cain, Elektra, Black Canary and Nick Fury then do so. 😬

Well you have two options.

1. Either you can insult me and tell me im whining.

Or the more civilsed option.

2. Respond to my question.

3. Discussion should take place before a change, and a majority should agree with you before an official change takes place.

I am just trying to start a discussion.

I really don't see the insult in telling someone that whining is unnecessary having perceived the tone as somewhat whiny. 😬

"I think Kingpin should be higher." That simple. No need for 🙄.
Procure support and he'll be higher.

Anyway the proposed change is noted.

Also if you're going to keep repeating that #3 from the stuff I took from Digimark's thread, you should really take a look at #4 too.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I really don't see the insult in telling someone that whining is unnecessary having perceived the tone as somewhat whiny. 😬

I suggested that Kingpin should be highier and I said that he has good showings against DD and Cap. is that a valid point.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

"I think Kingpin should be higher." That simple. No need for 🙄.
Procure support and he'll be higher.

Well maybe im rolling my eyes because of how your reacting . I also said that he has good showings against DD and Cap, you have not responded to that at all you have just noticed I rolled my eyes.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Also if you're going to keep repeating that #3 from the stuff I took from Digimark's thread, you should really take a look at #4 too.

You have noticed that 4 is placed after 3? Therefore implying that it has to be discussed first. I havent even made my case because we havent even discussed it. All you did is to tell me to stop whining.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I suggested that Kingpin should be highier and I said that he has good showings against DD and Cap. is that a valid point.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well maybe im rolling my eyes because of how your reacting .

Originally posted by Alfheim
You have noticed that 4 is placed after 3? Therefore implying that it has to be discussed first. I havent even made my case because we havent even discussed it.

/conversation at risk of derailment of thread.

With regard to Kingpin, the proposed change has been noted. I'm ambivalent towards it so am not casting any vote as yet. If it receives support then it'll happen.

Boom Boom and Cannonball should be in bottom tier.

Boom Boom was able to beat four enhanced humans at once and onnewas a combatant who had studied Shatterstar intently.Cannonball was able to hold off lady Deathstrike.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Which is all that need be posted. My comment was directed only at the way in which you proposed the change.The tone of your post on which I commented on was the way it was because of the way I commented on the tone of your post. That... makes little to no sense.

Thats because I expected that sort of response even if I didnt roll my eyes.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

That was with regard to Punisher.

I havent finished making my case. At any rate im still pushing for Punisher.

Nighthrasher should be higher. He's trained with a MA master from when he was a child. The Question was trained by Richard Dragon so he definitley should be higher on the list too. Elektra also should be top tier along with Cap and Wolverine. Echo should be added to the list as second tier. Also add Natas to the top tier spot. He's the guy that trained both Deathstroke and Green Arrow.

I think Punisher should stay where he is. He has a fair amount of skill, but its mostly through his brutality and resilence that he wins. Also Kingpin should stay, or at least go lower. Of all my Daredevil comics I haven't seen him demonstrate so much skill as he has sheer size and power.

Originally posted by marvelprince

I think Punisher should stay where he is. He has a fair amount of skill, but its mostly through his brutality and resilence that he wins. Also Kingpin should stay, or at least go lower. Of all my Daredevil comics I haven't seen him demonstrate so much skill as he has sheer size and power.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Moon knight is second tier right and Punisher doesnt fight like an MA. What does this look like to you?

http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p106mz.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p110zj.jpg

Punisher vs Black Widow who is top tier as well. AS you can see in both fights Frank uses MA skill, but on top of that and my other scans Frank should get raped by Bullseye and wins fights by sheer brutality.

http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow28jr.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow37wd.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow40dg.jpg

That is Punisher using skill to fight second tier fighters. Furthermore in the Moon Knight Vs Punisher. Spiderman implies that they were not holding back. If Punisher was lacking the skills you claim all you would have seen him do was get hit.

Hes also beaten Bullseye H2H using skill.

He also evaded a suprise attack from Cap, deflected his shield throw and stopped it from returning to Cap.

The above examples were pure skill against second tier and top tier fighters.

Originally posted by Alfheim
That is Punisher using skill to fight second tier fighters. Furthermore in the Moon Knight Vs Punisher. Spiderman implies that they were not holding back. If Punisher was lacking the skills you claim all you would have seen him do was get hit.

Hes also beaten Bullseye H2H using skill.

He also evaded a suprise attack from Cap, deflected his shield throw and stopped it from returning to Cap.

The above examples were pure skill against second tier and top tier fighters.

No, those are him winning fights. Spider-Man has similar feats but he isn't more skilled. Same as Daredevil, he isn't the most skilled but he has good showings against those that are more skilled than he is. Punisher is a beast, but he's a brawler mostly. He has combat training and its his resilence that lets him hang. Did you read Daredevil vs Punisher? Both had good showings but ti showed that Punisher is outclassed skillwise, but uses his brain and his toughness to hang in there. I think it was you that pointed out a win does not equal to superior skill.

Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 5 (Nataku, V, Soljer, marvelprince and I)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 2 (V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)
[Alfheim]Kingpin to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 1 (marvelprince)
[marvelprince]:
Question to Third Tier (?): 1 (mp) / 0
Night Thrasher to Second Tier: 1 (mp) / 0
Elektra to remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 1 (mp) / 0

With regard to Natas, the "Greatest Martial Artists" category is being limited to 16 places. Currently all the DC positions are taken, so you'd also have to nominate who should be moved down in his stead.

If you think he's superior to them all then he'd go into the Uber grouping. If he doesn't quite meet the calibre of the current DC MAs then he'd go into the second tier.

Also something to think about for the O-Sensei, Sensei Otomo, Kirigi (DC) etc.
N.B. Stick and Ogun, as trainers or top and second tier fighters have been placed in the Uber grouping. While David Cain is in the second tier.

Edit:
Echo will be added in next update.

Originally posted by Alfheim
OK answer these questions then, if hes not a real martial artist why is he:

1. Quick enough to evade a suprise attack from Captain America, deflect his shield and stop Cap from using it.

2. Has early showings where eventhough he was losing hit DD a significant number of times. In the lastest fight used a move to[B] dislocate DD arm and if you look at the scans carefully used some moves to evade DD's blows Furthermore one of the reasons why Frank was stamping on DD's head was because his head was on the ground. Bullseyes tried to do the samething to Frank as well when his head was on the ground....stamp on his head.

3. Used skill to beat the **** of Bullseye.

Have you actually bothered to look at my scans?

Well if you still think that Elecktra can beat BP after evidence was shown that BP can out speed Wolverine on Two occassion then clearly you're not an objective person and you're opinion doesnt count....but oh well thats life. [/B]

That. Is. Not. Martial arts. Martial arts are an established style of fighting, Frank fights however he can to make it work.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Moon knight is second tier right and Punisher doesnt fight like an MA. What does this look like to you?

http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p106mz.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p110zj.jpg

Punisher vs Black Widow who is top tier as well. AS you can see in both fights Frank uses MA skill, but on top of that and my other scans Frank should get raped by Bullseye and wins fights by sheer brutality.

http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow28jr.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow37wd.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow40dg.jpg

there's not a single feat of Martial arts prowess in those scans. He simply shows he knows how to fight. Period. Frank doesn't have any 'formal' martial arts training, he's got the training he received in the military, which, like we have been saying, is an amalgamation of every form of effective fighting from boxing, to wrestling, to street fighting, to Jiu-jitsu.

Where's Judomaster?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[b]Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 5 (Nataku, V, Soljer, marvelprince and I)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 2 (V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)
[Alfheim]Kingpin to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 1 (marvelprince)
[marvelprince]:
Question to Third Tier (?): 1 (mp) / 0
Night Thrasher to Second Tier: 1 (mp) / 0
Elektra to remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 1 (mp) / 0

With regard to Natas, the "Greatest Martial Artists" category is being limited to 16 places. Currently all the DC positions are taken, so you'd also have to nominate who should be moved down in his stead.

If you think he's superior to them all then he'd go into the Uber grouping. If he doesn't quite meet the calibre of the current DC MAs then he'd go into the second tier.

Also something to think about for the O-Sensei, Sensei Otomo, Kirigi (DC) etc.
N.B. Stick and Ogun, as trainers or top and second tier fighters have been placed in the Uber grouping. While David Cain is in the second tier. [/B]

Ok, well then Natas can go in the second tier

Originally posted by marvelprince
Also add Natas to the top tier spot. He's the guy that trained both Deathstroke and Green Arrow.

I think Punisher should stay where he is. He has a fair amount of skill, but its mostly through his brutality and resilence that he wins. Also Kingpin should stay, or at least go lower. Of all my Daredevil comics I haven't seen him demonstrate so much skill as he has sheer size and power.

Natas was also bested by Green Arrow. Should be on the same level as GA.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Moon knight is second tier right and Punisher doesnt fight like an MA. What does this look like to you?

http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p106mz.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p110zj.jpg

Punisher vs Black Widow who is top tier as well. AS you can see in both fights Frank uses MA skill, but on top of that and my other scans Frank should get raped by Bullseye and wins fights by sheer brutality.

http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow28jr.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow37wd.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=widow40dg.jpg

There's not a single feat of Martial arts prowess in those scans. He simply shows he knows how to fight. Period. Frank doesn't have any 'formal' martial arts training, he's got the training he received in the military, which, like we have been saying, is an amalgamation of every form of effective fighting from boxing, to wrestling, to street fighting, to Jiu-jitsu.

Combat skill doesn't mean you're a martial arts master. Shit, I know a lot of people who can fight, most beat martial artists, not because they have better martial arts skills, just because they've been in more fights and know how to hang with them.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Where's Judomaster?

Originally posted by marvelprince
Ok, well then Natas can go in the second tier

-----

I think I'll propose She-Hulk for third tier.

Originally posted by marvelprince
No, those are him winning fights.

Yes but my point is this, they are second tier fighters and you can clearly see him using skill to hang in there. Sometimes information is not a 100 percent clear cut but we analyse the info that we have and come to the most likely conclusion.

You have stated that the Punisher uses mostly brutality and resilience to win. In his fight with Black Widow and Moon Knight he used pure skill and if the fight continued by analysing the progression of the fight either Frank could have won or lost in a close fight.

You came to the conclusion that in Civil War Spiderman could beat Cap by analysing how the fight probably would have ended. Just because he did not win the fight does no mean he couldnt.

Originally posted by marvelprince

Spider-Man has similar feats but he isn't more skilled. Same as Daredevil, he isn't the most skilled but he has good showings against those that are more skilled than he is. Punisher is a beast, but he's a brawler mostly. He has combat training and its his resilence that lets him hang.

Yes but this is the point. You are not analysing the information as a whole you are just counting the examples of him using brutality and neglecting the examples where he shows alot of skill.

1. Scan of Punisher fighting Moon Knight - pure skill
2. Scan of Punisher fighting Black Widow - pure skill
3. Punisher beating Bullseye pretty scrappy but mostly skill.
4. Punisher evading a suprise attack from Cap.
a) Then deflecting his shield
b) Then stopping it from returning to Cap - pure skill. Punisher could have killed Cap

This is like saying Wolverine is slower than Cap because sometimes he gets hit alot. This would not be accuarte because you be neglecting his other agility feats. ( I think cap is slightly afster but you get the point).

Originally posted by marvelprince

Did you read Daredevil vs Punisher? Both had good showings but ti showed that Punisher is outclassed skillwise, but uses his brain and his toughness to hang in there. I think it was you that pointed out a win does not equal to superior skill.

OK bare in mind you do know that I obvoulsy think that DD is more skilled. I think I have seen scans of DD making Frnak look like a fool. Consider this have you seens scans of Apocalypse ducking from a table thrown by Namor? Do you think that shoould happen, no.

What im saying is this if you look at Frank Castle overall he has some really good MA feats and he should be put in the second tier. Hell if you look at some of the DD fights they should not have ended like that at all.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
there's not a single feat of Martial arts prowess in those scans. He simply shows he knows how to fight. Period. Frank doesn't have any 'formal' martial arts training, he's got the training he received in the military, which, like we have been saying, is an amalgamation of every form of effective fighting from boxing, to wrestling, to street fighting, to Jiu-jitsu.

Is MK fighting with martial prowess in those scans. Whats the difference between how Frank is fighting and MK is fighting.

In the sceond scan did you see that Punisher was fast enoug to throw his knife so that Black Widow could not fire her stingers?

I see you clearly dont know what you're talking about. I can see th reason why you think that Frank is brawler is because you clearly dont know his background.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Punisher_%28Frank_Castle%29

His hand-to-hand combat skills are more then sufficient to allow him to incapacitate and kill men much stronger than he is, as well as to deal with groups of armed and unarmed enemies, killing them all without weapons if he deems it necessary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Punisher

Castle is well-versed in the arts of warfare and hand-to-hand combat. His styles of choice being Nash Ryu Ju Jitsu (the four-style martial art founded by his Sensei Adam Nash and the Marine Corps LINE combat system). He is an exceptional knife fighter who carries up to 3 or 4 different types of edged weapons, preferring the knife he learned to fight with in the USMC: the Ka-bar (in the movie he killed Harry Heck with a ballistic knife).