Originally posted by Nataku8188
Alfheim, no one is saying Punisher isn't a skilled fighter, we're saying he's not a skilled MARTIAL ARTIST.
Do you want to answer the question.
Originally posted by AlfheimIs MK fighting with martial prowess in those scans. Whats the difference between how Frank is fighting and MK is fighting.
In the sceond scan did you see that Punisher was fast enoug to throw his knife so that Black Widow could not fire her stingers?
[/B]
If Frank is able to hang with MK who is a skilled MA doesnt that prove his a skilled MA they are both fighting the same way and have both receieved formal training. So therefore its logical to assume that Frank is using MA skill to fight MK.
Frank is clearly using MA moves to fight MK and you're telling me that hes not....what am i gonna do? You also said he hasnt receieved any formal training, which was incorrect how does that sound to you?
Furthermore you do know that Frank has studied various martial arts. have you been to the herochat respect thread? He also ahsnt just been in the army he has worked for secret intelligence as well.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Do you want to answer the question.If Frank is able to hang with MK who is a skilled MA doesnt that prove his a skilled MA they are both fighting the same way and have both receieved formal training. So therefore its logical to assume that Frank is using MA skill to fight MK.
Frank is clearly using MA moves to fight MK and you're telling me that hes not....what am i gonna do? You also said he hasnt receieved any formal training, which was incorrect how does that sound to you?
Furthermore you do know that Frank has studied various martial arts. have you been to the herochat respect thread? He also ahsnt just been in the army he has worked for secret intelligence as well.
A kickboxer who's resilent enough to take being thrown through concrete can hang with a Muey Thai fighter. Does that mean the boxer is more skilled? Tenacity counts for a lot in fights. In the same way that Moon Knight was able was able to scare Taskmaster who outranks him in skills because he just keep coming even though TM had put an arrow in his heart.
Originally posted by marvelprince
A kickboxer who's resilent enough to take being thrown through concrete can hang with a Muey Thai fighter. Does that mean the boxer is more skilled? Tenacity counts for a lot in fights. In the same way that Moon Knight was able was able to scare Taskmaster who outranks him in skills because he just keep coming even though TM had put an arrow in his heart.
Hell that doesnt even respond to my quote. Punisher was using skill to fight MK, whats all this talk about being thrown through a wall. Was Punisher getting beaten up badly by MK, No. The point is Frank was using skill to fight MK.
Again.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but my point is this, they are second tier fighters and you can clearly see him using skill to hang in there. Sometimes information is not a 100 percent clear cut but we analyse the info that we have and come to the most likely conclusion.You have stated that the Punisher uses mostly brutality and resilience to win. In his fight with Black Widow and Moon Knight he used pure skill and if the fight continued by analysing the progression of the fight either Frank could have won or lost in a close fight.
You came to the conclusion that in Civil War Spiderman could beat Cap by analysing how the fight [B] probably
would have ended. Just because he did not win the fight does no mean he couldnt.Yes but this is the point. You are not analysing the information as a whole you are just counting the examples of him using brutality and neglecting the examples where he shows alot of skill.
1. Scan of Punisher fighting Moon Knight - pure skill
2. Scan of Punisher fighting Black Widow - pure skill
3. Punisher beating Bullseye pretty scrappy but mostly skill.
4. Punisher evading a suprise attack from Cap.
a) Then deflecting his shield
b) Then stopping it from returning to Cap - pure skill. Punisher could have killed CapThis is like saying Wolverine is slower than Cap because sometimes he gets hit alot. This would not be accuarte because you be neglecting his other agility feats. ( I think cap is slightly afster but you get the point).
OK bare in mind you do know that I obvoulsy think that DD is more skilled. I think I have seen scans of DD making Frnak look like a fool. Consider this have you seens scans of Apocalypse ducking from a table thrown by Namor? Do you think that shoould happen, no.
What im saying is this if you look at Frank Castle overall he has some really good MA feats and he should be put in the second tier. Hell if you look at some of the DD fights they should not have ended like that at all.
[/B]
I believe you answered your own question. He uses skill to hang in there, but doesn't win. Punisher against Moon Knight both state they were holding back, the extent that both were holding back we don't know. Catching Cap's shield. You are aware that non MA's have done this before right? I can remember a few times in Avengers that's happened. Punisher gets embarassed by Daredevil almost consistently, but you want to put him in the same category as him? He did have a good showings against Bullseye, but in Bullseye vs Punisher Bullseye had the edge in most of their encounters, leaving Frank at his mercy a few times. Elektra (also in the category that you want to place Frank) has humilated Punisher before. I don't see how, when Punisher almost consistently loses to the people in the 2nd tier, you want to put him in there.
List update.
Current Hierarchy
Cosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun, Thanos
Uber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Ogun, Stick
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Echo, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon, Green Arrow, Karnak, Moon Knight, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Sabretooth, Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, X-23
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Arsenal, Bane, Blade, Dr Strange, Hercules, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Night Thrasher, Midnighter, Punisher, Psylocke, Robin, Shadowcat, US Agent
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Gambit, Misty Knight, Mystique, The Question, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Thing
Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 5 (Nataku, V, Soljer, marvelprince and I)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 2 (V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)
[Alfheim]Kingpin to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 1 (marvelprince)
[marvelprince]:
Question to Third Tier: 1 (mp) / 0
Night Thrasher to Second Tier: 1 (mp) / 0
Elektra to the remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 1 (mp) / 0
Comments:
-One open Marvel Top Tier spot. Two open Indie/Other spots.
-Added Natas, Echo and She-Hulk.
Originally posted by marvelprince
I believe you answered your own question. He uses skill to hang in there, but doesn't win.
No thats not what I said read it again.
Originally posted by Alfheim
You have stated that the Punisher uses mostly brutality and resilience to win. In his fight with Black Widow and Moon Knight he used pure skill and if the fight continued by analysing the progression of the fight either Frank could have won or lost in a close fight.You came to the conclusion that in Civil War Spiderman could beat Cap by analysing how the fight [B] probably
would have ended. Just because he did not win the fight does no mean he couldnt.[/B]
Originally posted by marvelprince
Punisher against Moon Knight both state they were holding back, the extent that both were holding back we don't know.
That was the second fight. In the first fight they were both pissed and wanted to **** each other up Spiderman was scared they would kill each other.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Catching Cap's shield. You are aware that non MA's have done this before right?
Yeah theres also the issue that Cap jumped Frank Castle by SUPRISE and then Frank did an MA move on Cap and turned the tables Also Frank didnt just catch it like for example the way Beast has done, Frank deflected it AND stopped it with his feet which is harder to do than hands. So its not as simple as your making out.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Punisher gets embarassed by Daredevil almost consistently, but you want to put him in the same category as him?
What DD isnt top tier?! Well as I said before he has good showings against Moon Knight, Bullseye and even Cap and DD in his early shwoings
Originally posted by marvelprince
He did have a good showings against Bullseye, but in Bullseye vs Punisher Bullseye had the edge in most of their encounters, leaving Frank at his mercy a few times.
That was not a H2H encounter. That was Bullseye throwing stuff, there is a difference. If Frank is trying to shot Bullseye and Bullseyes is throwing stuff is that H2H? There last fight was and Frank won. In all fairness a persons reaction speed can be due to MA prowess even they are using thrown weapons, but Bullseye is clearly more deadly throwing stuff than he is H2H so Bullseye beating Frank with thrown stuff does not count.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Elektra (also in the category that you want to place Frank) has humilated Punisher before. I don't see how, when Punisher almost consistently loses to the people in the 2nd tier, you want to put him in there.
Hell Apocalypse gets beaten by people he shouldnt be beaten by. You have to look at his powerset and use your descretion. Do you think Shang Chi should get beaten by Wolverine in several panels? Should Deadpool be able to beat Taskmaster in hangcuffs?
Again this is why Frank is second tier and should Elecktra be able to humiliate Frank when he has:.
1. Good showings against MK. The first fight they were not holding back and Frank used skill to fight him
2. Evading a suprise attack from the top tier Cap AND deflecting Caps shield and stopping it with his feet.
3. Fight with Black Widow where he used skill and used his knife to damage stingers.
4. Early showings with DD were good, why is he getting beaten up now?
5. Beat up Bullseye with MA.
Its inconsistent Punisher has high showings and then gets humiliated when he shouldnt be. Apoc should not duck from atable thrown by Namor.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well if you still think that Elecktra can beat BP after evidence was shown that BP can out speed Wolverine on Two occassion then clearly you're not an objective person and you're opinion doesnt count....but oh well thats life.
Take it to the versus forum, kid. I don't know what your vendetta against me is about, but if you have noticed....my opinion is a lot more respected around here than yours.
Also, hanging with a skilled martial artist does not make you a skilled martial artist. Frank isn't one. You know what Frank is. I know what Frank is. Everyone else in this thread? They know what Frank is.
Frank's a bad mother ****er. If this were the bad mother ****er tiering thread, he'd be top-tier, no doubt.
But you know what? This isn't the bad mother ****er thread. This is the martial artist thread.
If you haven't noticed, you've swayed NO ONE to vote for the Punisher. In fact, your ignorance and fanboyism has probably made some people even MORE vehemently opposed to his rise in stature. Good job.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 5 (Nataku, V, Soljer, marvelprince and I)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 2 (V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)
[Alfheim]Kingpin to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 1 (marvelprince)
[marvelprince]:
Question to Third Tier: 1 (mp) / 0
Night Thrasher to Second Tier: 1 (mp) / 0
Elektra to the remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 1 (mp) / 0Comments:
-One open Marvel Top Tier spot. Two open Indie/Other spots.
-Added Natas, Echo and She-Hulk.
Leave Kingpin as he is. I've seen a few skill feats from him, but nothing to indicate second tier placement.
Question in third is fine by me.
Night Thrasher? I don't know his skill feats, but Wikipedia alludes to his ability to "hold his own against the Punisher," had the Punisher not shot him with a SMG. If that's really the extent of his skill, I say he stays in third.
Elektra? Really? I know she is purported to be the worlds best assassin/ninja. But, via pure skill feats? I'd say Daredevil usually looks the better. I'll hold off voting on that for just now.
Originally posted by JuntaiI semi-concur with that. Consensus seems to agree they're a notch above the top-tier though.
I still don't see why Ogun and Stick are on their own whole level. lol.
Since you're one of the most knowledgeable DC people on here...
Query: The O-Sensei, Master Kirigi, Sensei Otomo and the like; have the students surpassed their masters? Or would they fit into this category that Stick and Ogun are in?
-----
Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 5 (Nataku, V, Soljer, marvelprince and I)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 2 (V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)
[Alfheim]Kingpin to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 2 (marvelprince, Soljer)
[marvelprince]:
Question to Third Tier: 2 (mp, Soljer) / 0
Night Thrasher to Second Tier: 1 (mp) / 1 (Soljer)
Elektra to the remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 2 (mp, Accel) / 0
Edit: I'm warming to the idea of Elektra taking a top spot, but am still unsure. There are others in the second tier who could make a claim too. So I'll abstain from voting for now.
I would agree with putting Elektra in the top-tier bracket. Wolverine's given her props where he basically seemed to believe he wasn't as skilled as she was. She's also completely dominated Taskmaster when he was using Daredevil's fighting style.
I see no reason why she isn't at least as skilled as the likes of Captain America and Connor Hawke.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotI would say for Otomo and O Sensei the truth died with them, no?
I semi-concur with that. Consensus seems to agree they're a notch above the top-tier though.Since you're one of the most knowledgeable DC people on here...
Query: The O-Sensei, Master Kirigi, Sensei Otomo and the like; have the students surpassed their masters? Or would they fit into this category that Stick and Ogun are in?-----
[b]Proposed Changes
(Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 5 (Nataku, V, Soljer, marvelprince and I)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 2 (V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)
[Alfheim]Kingpin to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 2 (marvelprince, Soljer)
[marvelprince]:
Question to Third Tier: 2 (mp, Soljer) / 0
Night Thrasher to Second Tier: 1 (mp) / 1 (Soljer)
Elektra to the remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 1 (mp) / 0 [/B]
I'm just not sure a whole other tier there is relivent.
Originally posted by JuntaiI think it's okay to rank the deceased characters too...
I would say for Otomo and O Sensei the truth died with them, no?
Originally posted by JuntaiHmm I suppose can put forward the proposed removal of the tier entirely. Although that begs the question of where to put those characters, while few in number and more minor characters, above the top but below the Karate Kid level.
I'm just not sure a whole other tier there is relivent.
Although I agree two people isn't really a tier.
Originally posted by Soljer
Take it to the versus forum, kid. I don't know what your vendetta against me is about, but if you have noticed....my opinion is a lot more respected around here than yours.
I dont care. Hell I was I craeted the caps punches thread and everbody was calling me afanboy because they basically were not listening to what I was saying. The only person who bothered to slug it out and stick with my debate agreed with me in the end.
Its the same **** happening here. You're not analysing my scans and not really making an effort.
Originally posted by Soljer
Also, hanging with a skilled martial artist does not make you a skilled martial artist. Frank isn't one. You know what Frank is. I know what Frank is. Everyone else in this thread? They know what Frank is.Yeah it does if your using MA.
[QUOTE=8737334]Originally posted by Soljer
[B]
Frank's a bad mother ****er. If this were the bad mother ****er tiering thread, he'd be top-tier, no doubt.But you know what? This isn't the bad mother ****er thread. This is the martial artist thread.
If you haven't noticed, you've swayed NO ONE to vote for the Punisher. In fact, your ignorance and fanboyism has probably made some people even MORE vehemently opposed to his rise in stature. Good job.
Im not the one with the problem. Lets take this as a perfect example. I have a scan of Punisher going toe to toe with MK not holding back. You can clearly see that he was using MA, some person looks at the scans and says he wasnt. You cant debate against stuff like that because they cant read, and you're just as bad.
Either you cant read or you take one half of my argument and ignore the rest. Hell you said that Punisher use brutality to fight, I showed you a scan of him beating Bullseye with MA, you completely ignored that scan and looked at the DD one where he was biting and stamping on him. That proved that Punisher uses brutality to fight but other scans show different.
Just because Wolverine allows himself to be hit doesnt mean he cant be fast because hes shown he can. Just because Punsiher uses brutality doesnt mean he doesnt have second tier skill because hes shown he can.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Moon knight is second tier right and Punisher doesnt fight like an MA. What does this look like to you?http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p106mz.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msmoonknight021p110zj.jpg
Apparently in this fight Punisher doesnt use MA according to one of the posters. How you gonna argue against that?. Incredible.
Originally posted by Nataku8188
Alfheim, just drop it, you're making yourself look like an ignorant fanboy. Just bite the bullet and give up, you're wrong. Not everyone is right all the time, not even me, and I'm like, almost infallible.
😆
Pretty much the last word.
Also; moon knight scans:
Because the Punisher is wearing a headband doesn't mean he's Karate Kid....
Let's see. In the scans you posted, he gets uppercutted, and kicked in the gut. So far...where's the skill?
He then gets a double fisted upper cut on Moon knight. Brutal. Effective. But skilled? ❌.
The Punisher then tries an elementary sweep. And follows it up with a rudimentary kick. And gets kicked in the face for his troubles.
Skilled?
The Punisher catches Moon Knight in the back of the head with a southpaw. Basic.
He gets kicked in the face and double fisted to the jaw.
There. I summed up the whole fight. You keep touting it, but where the hell is the Punisher's skill? He's a good fighter. He's vicious, he's brutal, he's powerful, he has a great damage soak...but..he's BASIC.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
List update.[b]Current Hierarchy
Cosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun, ThanosUber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Ogun, StickTop Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, WolverineSecond Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon, Green Arrow, Karnak, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Sabretooth, Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, X-23Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Arsenal, Bane, Blade, Dr Strange, Hercules, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Night Thrasher, Midnighter, Punisher, Psylocke, Robin, Shadowcat, US AgentFourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Gambit, Misty Knight, Mystique, The Question, Starfire, Storm, ThingAccomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 4 (Nataku, V, Soljer and I)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 2 (V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)Comments:
-One open Marvel Top Tier spot. Two open Indie/Other spots.
-Added Hercules, Gambit, Dr Strange, David Cain, Ravager, Karnak, and Winter Soldier. Objections to their placement?
-Other proposed changes? [/B]
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bop85page074nz.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bop85page084yi.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bop85page09101nr.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bop85page127cw.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bop85page155gs.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bop85page161qy.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bop85page171fb.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bop85page192it.jpg
Yeah I know about her stalemating the leader of the Silk Brothers, twice in that arc iirc, and her temporarily following Shiva's path. But who would you remove from the 7 currently in the Top Tier bracket to give her that placing?
I don't think I'd oppose her being raised, but I don't think I'd support it either as yet.
(It is however further reason why someone like Punisher doesn't belong in that grouping.)
