Ranks for MAs

There's debating, which many of us have done already in this thread, then there's being a stubborn, ignorant fanboy. Capt we all know is prone to go into this mode when provoked regarding Wolverine, but he still knows when to stop if someone asks him too. Alfheim, seriously, you've admitted yourself that you're making arguments based on things you don't even know about. Just drop it.

Anyways, onto modifications;
Snake Eyes should be Uber tier. No doubt at all. It's either Jinzin or Srank who has all his feats memorized and probably scanned, but I'll work on compiling some info. He is beyond amazing.

I'd base my judgement of Ares skill on the premise that the Spartans, Achilles, and all other amazing fighters of that pantheon and era were considered nothing to him. I'll have to get some scans and feats to back it all up.

As for Cable, I see him as a Punisher Deluxe. He's strong, fast, skilled, tons of experience, but his ability to win fights doesn't come from being a master of martial arts, more than it comes from being a master of fighting.

I think we need to keep that in mind when evaluating these characters, that this is MARTIAL ARTS skill, not FIGHTING skill. Perhaps we should change it to Fighting skill, or if we decide to keep it MA, reevaluate a lot of these characters, because truth be told, many of these people are amazing fighters, but not amazing martial artists. I mean, Robin should be second tier as a martial artist, even if he isn't the best fighter. In a fight where only MAs were allowed, I guarantee he'd do much better than in generalized fight, just because of his mastery of MAs.

But that's just my thoughts.

Hmm I don't think it would have to dramatic an impact if we were evaluating the list on wider fighting skill as opposed to martial arts skill. There would be some characters that may need re-evaluating - but on the whole, all other things being equal, the calibre of the fighting skill of most of the characters in for example the Second Tier outrank the calibre of the fighting skill in the Third and so forth. But I personally prefer to term the hierarchy as a ranking of martial arts skill, as it's more defined that way.

Originally posted by Alfheim

If they teach you how to dodge in MA then its a skill isnt it? BP is obvoulsy an MA.

Have you done martial arts before.

I'm not about to get into this with you, so suffice it to say this will be my last post on the subject. If you want to discuss this elsewhere, I'd be happy to, but here is not the place.

1. I'm well aware that some of those bullseye scans didn't show him fighting hand to hand. So? Him keeping up with Daredevil and Elektra simultaneously through skill is all that needs to be seen. I'm sure I'm not the only one that knows that Bullseye uses projectiles. 🙄

2. A method of dodging can be a skill. The weave, or the parry in boxing, for example. In comic books, I suppose quadruple backflip spin charging tiger kick would be an example.

The SPEED with which you pull off a weave or a parry is...well...speed. A much more skillful boxer can parry too slow and get tagged. It has nothing to do with his skill.

3. Yes, I've practiced martial arts, including American Boxing and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I've also cross trained with two separate black belts in Tae Kwon Do, and a friend who has been practicing Muay Thai for six years (mostly cross trained here to incorporate elbows and knees - my feet are slow.)

And, to X;

I think most people have been evaluating it as "Fighting Skill" thus far. Not solely martial arts. I really think changing the title to "Fighting Skill" would have next to no impact on the list itself.

Originally posted by Soljer

The SPEED with which you pull off a weave or a parry is.

I was under the impression that a weave was a form of dodging???? Its a form of dodging that they teach therefore its a skill.

Obvoulsy if you weave to slow and you're not fast enough you will get hit. So speed and skill are closely related.

If you look at what Bp was doing in those scans he was using MA moves to counter some of what Wolverine was doing so he was using MA as well as speed.

Forgive my ignorance; Can someone explain or provide an image than shows why mantis is so highly ranked.
The mantis I know struggled with Dr. Strange in H2H. You must mean a different Mantis, correct? (Sorry, I'm not very up to date but trying to get reaquainted)

Also: was there a reason The Champion got dropped?
And I beleive these were left out (if they are mentioned somewhere, my apologies - there's alot of reading here - good link Alf)

Puck - Top Tier (arguable)
Black Knight - 2nd tier
Swordsman - 2nd tier
Gilgamesh - 3rd tier
Nomad - 2nd Tier
Bucky - 4th tier
Falcon - 3rd tier
Perregrin - 4th tier
Carol Danvers 3rd tier

Official list update and proposed changes update.

Current Hierarchy

Cosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Champion of the Universe, Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Thanos

Uber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Kirigi (DC), O-Sensei, Ogun, Snake Eyes, Stick

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Donatello, Echo, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon, Green Arrow, Karnak, Leonardo, Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Prometheus, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Shatterstar, Silver Samurai, Stone, Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Ares, Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Domino, Hawkeye, Hercules, Huntress, Katana, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moondragon, Moon Knight, Nightcrawler, Night Thrasher, Onyx, Punisher, Psylocke, The Question, Robin, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Stacy X, Thor, US Agent, Wong

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Gambit, Iron-Man, Jubilee, Misty Knight, Mystique, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Tarantula, Thing

Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Invisible Woman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)

[Alfheim]:
Black Panther to replace Elektra: 1 (Alfheim) / 3 (Soljer, capt and I)
[Devil Lance]:
Black Canary to replace Connor Hawke: 1 (DL) / 2 (mp, V)
[jinzin]:
Gorgon to Uber: 1 (jinzin) / 3 (V, capt, mp)
or Gorgon to replace Elektra: 2 (Soljer, jinzin) / 2 (capt, mp)
[Martian_Mind]
Boom Boom to Third: 1 (MM) /
Cable to replace Elektra: 1 (MM) / 3 (V, Soljer and I)
[Nataku]
Ares to Second: 2 (V, Nat) / 2 (MM, Soljer)

Comments:
-Elektra claims the 7th Top Tier spot, with 5 votes in favor and opposition retracted.
-Midnight Sun is moved to Second Tier with 3 votes in favor and none opposed.
Additions: Snake Eyes, Moondragon (for now until people bring some support to her being higher.)

Originally posted by FOOM
Forgive my ignorance; Can someone explain or provide an image than shows why mantis is so highly ranked.
The mantis I know struggled with Dr. Strange in H2H. You must mean a different Mantis, correct? (Sorry, I'm not very up to date but trying to get reaquainted)

Also: was there a reason The Champion got dropped?
And I beleive these were left out (if they are mentioned somewhere, my apologies - there's alot of reading here - good link Alf)

Puck - Top Tier (arguable)
Black Knight - 2nd tier
Swordsman - 2nd tier
Gilgamesh - 3rd tier
Nomad - 2nd Tier
Bucky - 4th tier
Falcon - 3rd tier
Perregrin - 4th tier
Carol Danvers 3rd tier

Champion is there.

I wouldn't support Puck for Top Tier, nor a drop to 4th for Winter Soldier.

For the others I'm not sure about some of them so haven't added them as yet. Should probably be more consensus on them first.

Winter Soldier does not get dropped. I'm sure in the future he'll actually get a bump upwards. but for now he is fine.

Don't know much about Mantis so i won't comment there.

Swordsman I would place third tier. Black Knight probably goes there too (though outside of basic training and sword manuevers I'm not sure of his skill level).

Carol is either 4 tier or lower 3rd tier. She really only has her military training IIRC which she doesn't even use. If I had to vote she'd go 4th tier

swordsmen is hard since in all honest he does not have any good h2h combat feats

sorry about taking up so much space with the alf thing. It just he gets so dam annoying and he kept saying things that were false and showing total lack of knowedge in MA and what MA truely is.

wait a sec why was lady deathstrike dropped from second tier?

she is amazingly skilled

Mantis is placed so highly because she was able to knock out Thor.

Yeah.

Thor.

With martial arts.

😱

Winter Soldier is going nowhere but up, in my opinion. Right now he doesn't have the feats to support a top tier placing, but he sure as SHIT isn't fourth tier.

I know Puck is incredibly skilled, but I would place him as one of the top second tiers, rather than one of the bottom top tiers. I don't want to bring the wrath of Mungi down on myself, but I really don't think that Puck could be considered Steve Rogers' or Wayne's equal. So, consider this a vote for Puck as second tier.

Edit: It's been less than fifteen minutes, Capt. The edit function was invented for a reason, 😛.

did any oen place weapon omega?

I don't like to edit lol

By Weapon Omega, do you mean Wild Child? I know he went by Weapon Omega for a little while...

Originally posted by Soljer
By Weapon Omega, do you mean Wild Child? I know he went by Weapon Omega for a little while...

Originally posted by Nataku8188
There's debating, which many of us have done already in this thread, then there's being a stubborn, ignorant fanboy. Capt we all know is prone to go into this mode when provoked regarding Wolverine, but he still knows when to stop if someone asks him too. Alfheim, seriously, you've admitted yourself that you're making arguments based on things you don't even know about. Just drop it.

Anyways, onto modifications;
Snake Eyes should be Uber tier. No doubt at all. It's either Jinzin or Srank who has all his feats memorized and probably scanned, but I'll work on compiling some info. He is beyond amazing.

I'd base my judgement of Ares skill on the premise that the Spartans, Achilles, and all other amazing fighters of that pantheon and era were considered nothing to him. I'll have to get some scans and feats to back it all up.

As for Cable, I see him as a Punisher Deluxe. He's strong, fast, skilled, tons of experience, but his ability to win fights doesn't come from being a master of martial arts, more than it comes from being a master of fighting.

I think we need to keep that in mind when evaluating these characters, that this is MARTIAL ARTS skill, not FIGHTING skill. Perhaps we should change it to Fighting skill, or if we decide to keep it MA, reevaluate a lot of these characters, because truth be told, many of these people are amazing fighters, but not amazing martial artists. I mean, Robin should be second tier as a martial artist, even if he isn't the best fighter. In a fight where only MAs were allowed, I guarantee he'd do much better than in generalized fight, just because of his mastery of MAs.

But that's just my thoughts.

I agree that snake eyes is mad skilled. What do you think about heavy duty?

Originally posted by capt it up
ya if I am not mistaken he still goes by omega weapon

Meh, he's still better known as Wild Child, 😛.

Originally posted by Soljer
Meh, he's still better known as Wild Child, 😛.

I still find it funny that in AOA he got pissed on

😆 😆

....

😘.

Originally posted by Soljer
😆 😆

....

😘.

lol

you know sabertooth is a pimp like that first he beats your ass then pisses on you so every oen knows your his........kinda creepy........also wild child was like a freaken retarded dog and he even was on a leash......lol