Originally posted by SpunkySmurphWithout his powers could he give Black Canary, Nightwing, David Cain, Black Widow etc. a good fight though...? The only one that you've listed there that's currently in the second tier is Karnak.
He's never been defeated in H2H, and has taken down(individually) Ronan, Ikarus, Thing, and Skar, and has held his own against the Hulk, Thor, and a team of the Fantastic Four, Namor, Karnak, Gorgon and Medusa.
Also I'm not for including Street Fighter characters. There are too many of them... at least with TMNT there were only four added into the hierarchy.
Updated official list and proposed changes update.
Current Hierarchy
Cosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Champion of the Universe, Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun, Thanos
Uber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Kirigi (DC), O-Sensei, Ogun, Snake Eyes, Stick
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Bolt, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Donatello, Echo, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Karnak, Leonardo, Michaelangelo, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Shatterstar, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Ares, Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Domino, Hawkeye, Hercules, Huntress, Katana, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Moondragon, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Onyx, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Robin (Tim Drake), Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thor, US Agent, Wild Child, Wong
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Falcon, Gambit, Iron-Man, Jubilee, Misty Knight, Mystique, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Superman, Tarantula, Thing
Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Grace Choi, Hulk, Invisible Woman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
[Alfheim]:
Black Panther to replace Elektra: 1 (Alfheim) / 3 (Soljer, capt and I)
[Devil Lance]:
Black Canary to replace Connor Hawke: 1 (DL) / 3 (WW, mp, V)
[jinzin]:
or Gorgon to replace Elektra: 2 (Soljer, jinzin) / 2 (capt, mp)
[Martian_Mind]
Boom Boom to Third: 1 (MM) /
Domino to Second: 1 (MM) / 2 (me, mp)
[Nataku]
Ares to Second: 2 (V, Nat) / 2 (MM, Soljer)
[me]
Midnight Sun to Second: 3 (Soljer, V and I) / 1 (High_Scholar)
[capt]
Lady Deathstrike to Second Tier: 2 (capt and I) / 0
[mp]
Colleen Wing to Third: 2 (mp and I) / 0
Cable to replace Elektra has been defeated 4/1.
Gorgon to Uber has been defeated 3/1 + my vote of against.
Some of the other changes will lapse and remain the status quo without additional votes in favor.
Comments:
-Midnight Sun temporarily moved back to Cosmic for further discussion.
-We can discuss Champion a bit more and then put it to a vote.
-I also think Moondragon is being rated too low, but I personally don't have anything to make a case to move her higher.
-Not sure about Warlock.
Additions: Steel Serpent, Black Bolt, Jessica Drew, Superman, Talia al Ghul, and the Twelve Brothers in Silk collectively
-Added Black Bolt to second tier but I have reservations and may propose moving him to third.
-Drax and Mar-Vell will be added after further discussion.
Heres some proof that Conner Hawke isn't tier one worthy
Here he gets his ass kicked by Constantine Drakon even with the help of Speedy
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/ConstantineDrakon/dra04.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/ConstantineDrakon/dra05.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/ConstantineDrakon/dra06.jpg
Conner Hawke gets destroyed by Drakon again
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/ConstantineDrakon/drakon09.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/ConstantineDrakon/drakon10.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/ConstantineDrakon/drakon11.jpg
Conner Hawke is beaten by Shiva
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/con03.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/con04.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/con05.jpg
he's obviously good high end tier two I'd say but he isn't good enough to be tier one imo
Originally posted by Soljer
Am I missing something? In the Shiva scans, Connor breaks her bones and draws blood.And she scratches him. 😐.
Where is the evidence of the curbstomping you were talking about?
here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/con04.jpg
and Shiva was in a comatose after her fight with Batgirl for days
being put in a comatose>possibly having a broken bone
Shiva beat him in the end which is all that matter
anyways you probably don't read BOP , an dbecause of that you don't know how good BC is so my argument is falling on deaf ears 🙄
Originally posted by Devil Lance
here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/con04.jpgand Shiva was in a comatose after her fight with Batgirl for days
being put in a comatose>possibly having a broken boneShiva beat him in the end which is all that matter
anyways you probably don't read BOP , an dbecause of that you don't know how good BC is so my argument is falling on deaf ears 🙄
First off how is that a win for Shiva? I thought they were pretty well matched. Considering that Shiva tends to end up killing those she goes up against and could only fight Conner to a standstill kinda proves that they are on the same level.
Second, Drakon was destroying everyone. Anyone who went up against him straight up lost. He was beating Conner pretty bad, but he almost killed Arsenal, no problem.
Originally posted by Devil Lance
here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/con04.jpgand Shiva was in a comatose after her fight with Batgirl for days
being put in a comatose>possibly having a broken boneShiva beat him in the end which is all that matter
anyways you probably don't read BOP , an dbecause of that you don't know how good BC is so my argument is falling on deaf ears 🙄
And Shiva was comatose during that encounter with Batgirl, but when they had a rematch Batgirl didn't curbstop anyone.
Did you even read the issues in question cause in the Green Arrow issue there is no curbstop by either of them. I haven't read any Birds of Prey lately so I only can take what you say about BC at face value. Post some feats that prove that she exceeds Conner's level. Since you like to use the Drakon example any scans of her curbstopping him?
Originally posted by Condor
Am I the only one that thinks Batman and Cap should be one category up or at least ahead of the rest of the group?Batman trained with the greatest samarai in the world,
Cap knows every form of MA and is elite in all of them.
It's what these two characters are known for.
Bats and Cap just about define TopTier MA thats why they are where they are.
Originally posted by marvelprince
And Shiva was comatose during that encounter with Batgirl, but when they had a rematch Batgirl didn't curbstop anyone.Did you even read the issues in question cause in the Green Arrow issue there is no curbstop by either of them. I haven't read any Birds of Prey lately so I only can take what you say about BC at face value. Post some feats that prove that she exceeds Conner's level. Since you like to use the Drakon example any scans of her curbstopping him?
shes never faced him 😬
this is pretty impressive imo
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2604683.html#cutid1
and so is this
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/3195835.html#cutid1
and this
Canary whupping every able-bodied male in Lady Shiva's home village, while Shiva's first teacher grimaces and keeps sending in more.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can15.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can17.jpg
and note the last fight between BC and those guys that BC talks about BC had a hood over her head and her hands were tied behind her back
Unarmed BC beats and armed Hellcat
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can9.jpg
BC spars with WW and beats her
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can18.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can19.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can20.jpg
BC vs Savant ( a guy is supposed to be on par with Hawke)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can12.jpg
Originally posted by Devil Lance
shes never faced him 😬
I know. It was to say there no way you can say that Conner is inferior to Canary cause he lost to Drakon. She's never faced him so how do you how she'd fare?
Originally posted by Devil Lance
this is pretty impressive imo
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2604683.html#cutid1
Seen it. Was ok.
Originally posted by Devil Lance
and so is this
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/3195835.html#cutid1
Seen it also. Was a good feat though.
Originally posted by Devil Lance
Canary whupping every able-bodied male in Lady Shiva's home village, while Shiva's first teacher grimaces and keeps sending in more.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can15.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can17.jpg
Hadn't seen this one before. Good feat, but hardly puts her over Conner.
and note the last fight between BC and those guys that BC talks about BC had a hood over her head and her hands were tied behind her back
Originally posted by Devil Lance
Unarmed BC beats and armed Hellcat
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can9.jpgBC spars with WW and beats her
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can18.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can19.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can20.jpgBC vs Savant ( a guy is supposed to be on par with Hawke)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/deetee/can12.jpg
These are good ones, especially the first. I have no problems accepting that Black Canray is good. I just doubt that she's good enough to to say she's superior to Conner. He fought Shiva to a standstill in his first encounter with her. BC can't attest to that. Shiva saw something in BC that she wanted to train so that she would unleash it. Canary has gotten better since then, but Conner hasn't exactly been twiddling his thumbs since OYL.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The list is supposed to take into account only skill, so what you're saying here would give him claim to a top tier spot perhaps to replace one of the others. But it wouldn't necessarily put him above. If Shang Chi was given the same power upgrades as Midnight Sun was in this hierarchy he'd still only be where he is right now at highest.
thats true, but reflexes, speed comes into account which Midnight sun has (superhuman) as he was before he was Shang chi equal but now he has superhuman reflexes meaning he would dodge and attack anyone whos not beofre they do and potentially end it in one blow. espiically he is learning martial arts across the universe.
one of the requirements proposed in cosmic tier was to harm class one humdred which Midnight Sun has doen repeatedly to SS when others in his or higher strength class have not, but also as midnight survived a blow (from Mantis whos in cosmic tier) which collapsed Thor (class 100).
i am not saying Midnight Sun is all powerful, just that he seems to be underestimated = by putting him in second tier. He should atleast be in Uber tier
Midnight Sun = Uber (at least)
