For this Hierarchy, speed is NOT supposed to account.
And the "Hurt class 100 bricks" is supposed to be on PURE skill alone. The Hulk can, obviously, hurt class 100 bricks, but he sure as shit isn't a cosmic tier Martial Artist.
Lastly, surviving a blow that felled Thor is a great durability feat, but where's the skill? 😐.
With regard to the Black Canary vs Connor Hawke issue, the lists is actually probably nearing the size where an extra spot could be opened for one more top tier from each DC and Marvel. I don't think it's there yet, but near.
I'm proposing moving Black Bolt to third. I've yet to be convinced that in pure skill he's on par with the calibre of the second tier.
This is why Dinah shouldn't replace Conner in the top tier spot.
Conner had defeated a martial arts master called the Silver Monkey. Members of his order seek out Conner to restore honor to their cult by defeating him. Some of the underlings, the Steel Monkeys run into Black Canary.
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=detectivecomics723pg18jz1.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5332/detectivecomics723pg19gb2.jpg
Note that she has to get rescued.
Conner vs the Bamboo Monkey. Higher than the Steel monkeys, but lower than the Silver Monkey.
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nightwing23pg07vo0.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nightwing23pg08hw3.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nightwing23pg09mk8.jpg
Note how he had to rescue Nightwing, and Dick's still banged up. Robin even gushes over him.
And the much debated fight between Conner and the Paper Monkey (Shiva). She does beat him, but he does well against her and even gets Bruce's "respect". From the beginning.
http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistpariy1.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparjv4.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparav7.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparoa3.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparib4.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparvl9.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparfl3.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparlr1.jpg
http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparpy7.jpg
http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparup6.jpg
http://img112.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistpartx4.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparop1.jpg
I left out the portion after where Shiva says she will kill Connor. She spares Connor because of Robin. All that happens is that Robin jumps down, reminds Shiva that she owes him a favor and asks her to not kill Connor. She agrees and leaves and then the next scene picks up with Nightwing and Batman.
Connor does in fact lose, but he does well against her. He manages to break bones and draw blood, thats not something a lot of people can lay claim to.
So back to my ABC logic. Canary has to be rescued from the Steel Monkeys, who Shiva has been ripping through like tissue paper and Connor takes down a Bamboo Monkey (higher than Steel), plus had taken out the Silver Monkey earlier (higher than the Bamboo) and manages to put up a solid fight against Shiva, yet people still think she's higher up on the scale than Connor?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
With regard to the Black Canary vs Connor Hawke issue, the lists is actually probably nearing the size where an extra spot could be opened for one more top tier from each DC and Marvel. I don't think it's there yet, but near.
Excellent,Cable and Red Hood will have a field day 😖hifty:
Originally posted by marvelprince
This is why Dinah shouldn't replace Conner in the top tier spot.Conner had defeated a martial arts master called the Silver Monkey. Members of his order seek out Conner to restore honor to their cult by defeating him. Some of the underlings, the Steel Monkeys run into Black Canary.
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=detectivecomics723pg18jz1.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5332/detectivecomics723pg19gb2.jpgNote that she has to get rescued.
Conner vs the Bamboo Monkey. Higher than the Steel monkeys, but lower than the Silver Monkey.
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nightwing23pg07vo0.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nightwing23pg08hw3.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nightwing23pg09mk8.jpgNote how he had to rescue Nightwing, and Dick's still banged up. Robin even gushes over him.
And the much debated fight between Conner and the Paper Monkey (Shiva). She does beat him, but he does well against her and even gets Bruce's "respect". From the beginning.
http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistpariy1.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparjv4.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparav7.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparoa3.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparib4.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparvl9.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparfl3.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparlr1.jpg
http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparpy7.jpg
http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparup6.jpg
http://img112.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistpartx4.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherhoodofthefistparop1.jpgI left out the portion after where Shiva says she will kill Connor. She spares Connor because of Robin. All that happens is that Robin jumps down, reminds Shiva that she owes him a favor and asks her to not kill Connor. She agrees and leaves and then the next scene picks up with Nightwing and Batman.
Connor does in fact lose, but he does well against her. He manages to break bones and draw blood, thats not something a lot of people can lay claim to.
So back to my ABC logic. Canary has to be rescued from the Steel Monkeys, who Shiva has been ripping through like tissue paper and Connor takes down a Bamboo Monkey (higher than Steel), plus had taken out the Silver Monkey earlier (higher than the Bamboo) and manages to put up a solid fight against Shiva, yet people still think she's higher up on the scale than Connor?
wtf is your problem with Canary 🙄
That was years before she decided to get serious about the MAs and also in that same Mini Bronze Tiger was taken out by the silver Monkeys or whatever 🙄
Do you honestly think Bronze Tiger < Conner Hawke 😆
face it under then pen of Gail Simone BC has rosen up the ranks in terms of MA in the DCu and is definite;y worthy of being in tier one
but whatever you obviously don't get that 🙄
Originally posted by Devil Lance
wtf is your problem with Canary 🙄That was years before she decided to get serious about the MAs and also in that same Mini Bronze Tiger was taken out by the silver Monkeys or whatever 🙄
Do you honestly think Bronze Tiger < Conner Hawke 😆
face it under then pen of Gail Simone BC has rosen up the ranks in terms of MA in the DCu and is definite;y worthy of being in tier one
but whatever you obviously don't get that 🙄
Even with the time lapse she still struggles with the men in Shiva's village. Shiva thinks she has potential but that she lacks the drive to be better. I don't know how you equate that to better than Connor.
Black Canary was taken down by two, three Steel Monkeys tops. Bronze Tiger was taken out at the temple where not only do the the masters reside but where they number in the hundreds. 🤨
You obviously just are having a knee jerk reaction to take my post. Next time take your time and read cause I didn't imply anywhere that Conner is above Bronze Tiger. I think that Connor is above Black Canary, so I post proof that he is. This isn't a personal attack against Black Canary so don't treat it like one. If you have a problem with a simple debate though then maybe the forum isn't the best place for you. 😬
BC is worthy of tier one. I've never disputed that. Is she above Connor's level? No way. What have you shown? That she impressed Ollie? That was before OYL when he didn't know any moves himself. Her impressing someone with little fighting skill doesn't make her high as Shiva imo. Did you notice Tim and Dick's reaction to Connor, and they've seen Canary, Wildcat, Batman etc in action? You want to change someone's mind then you really gonna have to step your game up.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Even with the time lapse she still struggles with the men in Shiva's village. Shiva thinks she has potential but that she lacks the drive to be better. I don't know how you equate that to better than Shiva.Black Canary was taken down by two, three Steel Monkeys tops. Bronze Tiger was taken out at the temple where not only do the the masters reside but where they number in the hundreds. 🤨
You obviously just are having a knee jerk reaction to take my post. Next time take your time and read cause I didn't imply anywhere that Conner is above Bronze Tiger. I think that Connor is above Black Canary, so I post proof that he is. This isn't a personal attack against Black Canary so don't treat it like one. If you have a problem with a simple debate though then maybe the forum isn't the best place for you. 😬
BC is worthy of tier one. I've never disputed that. Is she above Connor's level? No way. What have you shown? That she impressed Ollie? That was before OYL when he didn't know any moves himself. Her impressing someone with little fighting skill doesn't make her high as Shiva imo. Did you notice Tim and Dick's reaction to Connor, and they've seen Canary, Wildcat, Batman etc in action? You want to change someone's mind then you really gonna have to step your game up.
please don't put words in my mouth
I never said she was better than shiva
Bumping the list
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Updated official list and proposed changes update.[b]Current Hierarchy
Cosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Champion of the Universe, Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun, ThanosUber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Kirigi (DC), O-Sensei, Ogun, Snake Eyes, StickTop Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, WolverineSecond Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Bolt, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Donatello, Echo, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Karnak, Leonardo, Michaelangelo, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Shatterstar, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Ares, Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Domino, Hawkeye, Hercules, Huntress, Katana, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Moondragon, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Onyx, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Robin (Tim Drake), Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thor, US Agent, Wild Child, WongFourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Falcon, Gambit, Iron-Man, Jubilee, Misty Knight, Mystique, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Superman, Tarantula, ThingAccomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Grace Choi, Hulk, Invisible Woman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
[Alfheim]:
Black Panther to replace Elektra: 1 (Alfheim) / 3 (Soljer, capt and I)
[Devil Lance]:
Black Canary to replace Connor Hawke: 1 (DL) / 3 (WW, mp, V)
[jinzin]:
or Gorgon to replace Elektra: 2 (Soljer, jinzin) / 2 (capt, mp)
[Martian_Mind]
Boom Boom to Third: 1 (MM) /
Domino to Second: 1 (MM) / 2 (me, mp)
[Nataku]
Ares to Second: 2 (V, Nat) / 2 (MM, Soljer)
[me]
Midnight Sun to Second: 3 (Soljer, V and I) / 1 (High_Scholar)
[capt]
Lady Deathstrike to Second Tier: 2 (capt and I) / 0
[mp]
Colleen Wing to Third: 2 (mp and I) / 0Cable to replace Elektra has been defeated 4/1.
Gorgon to Uber has been defeated 3/1 + my vote of against.
Some of the other changes will lapse and remain the status quo without additional votes in favor.
Comments:
-Midnight Sun temporarily moved back to Cosmic for further discussion.
-We can discuss Champion a bit more and then put it to a vote.
-I also think Moondragon is being rated too low, but I personally don't have anything to make a case to move her higher.
-Not sure about Warlock.Additions: Steel Serpent, Black Bolt, Jessica Drew, Superman, Talia al Ghul, and the Twelve Brothers in Silk collectively
-Added Black Bolt to second tier but I have reservations and may propose moving him to third.
-Drax and Mar-Vell will be added after further discussion. [/B]
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sorry 😮 That's why I quoted him. Its just a bump not an update.And it's easier to have the list on the current page rather than go looking for it IMO.
Oh, right, my bad. I suppose that's not too big a deal. Was it a new page?
I have 40 replies per page, so I can only tell every OTHER new page, 😛.
