Ranks for MAs

Originally posted by jinzin
true, but gorgon does not allow him self to get hit ever. That was the only fight were he actually took hits which would imply that he was simply not able to dodge the attacks. Also the fight was dead even till the very end in which gorgon pretty much speed blitz wolverine with attacks.
ummm youre completely SPECULATING that that had anything to do with speedblitzing whatsoever..

Okay, yes their last fight was the only one in which gorgon got hit.. but given what and whom he completely no sold in his appearances before.. we can come to one of two conclussions...
the first being that him getting blown up and blasted with lsd rockets and then jumped by wolverine and elektra and then tacked out of a skyscraper actually did slow him down enough for wolverine to land hits...

that he let wolverine hit him so he could pierce wolvie's lungs and work him up close.

or that they are very close to equals and skill

all of those work better than.. "wolverine hit gorgon in that fight so he must be less skilled" which is what you're attempting to sell here.

and he didn't.. he got the crap kicked out of him twice in a row..

again you are.. you're subjecting him to a double standard... double standards are hypocritical. and again his "physical superiorty" needs to be proven to a point that would make the difference here.

which would be comparible..

I saw him kill a bunch of people and wolverine get freaked by his speed.. but I don't see him moving at speeds that can attribute to that being the only reason he won the fights he won.

they never had a flat out contest of strength...
speed's kind of a ***** in handbooks.. I believe that the speed chart refers more to traveling speed which means dick squat in a fight.

he basically did that 2 and 1/2 times... 😐

yokia? who the hell are you talking about?
and again he didn't even say this he was thinking it.. so apparently wolverine lies to himself noo as well.

no you're not.. you're going to town with tangents and you keep drawing me into debates I'm not even trying to have.

he never said nor implied that. you're tangenting again.

not all telepaths are the same.. and yes.. against x he did.. that's just how it works..

and that makes the rest of the story bogus how?

listen I realize that the fight with x is.. (well no human including people like cap or daredevil SHOULD be able to fight wolverine but they do).. in a word ridiculous, but I don't see how that leads you to believe that the whole story was bogus..

I'm not arguing otherwise.. 🤨

I didn't say that... 😐

I said that he doesn't try to think about doing what he's doing. which he doesn't.

by what?

stats cover ground speed...
in comics.. yeah he was faster.. was it due to skill or superspeed? either would be speculation.

and yet.. "I have to stop TRYING to MATCH his SKILLS".... 😐

I don't see what the hell stick's doing there then.. he was outright humilated by wolverine.

healing.... factor...

he got in stabs.. there wasn't much of a fight... at no point was he winning..

and again... then our ranking doesn't make sense... logan pounded ogun twice... he no sold stick.. what the hell are they doing in the uber tier?

Ogun has also pounded on wolverine. it true wolevrine did out fight stick.

You are right gorgon was a top tier though uber I don't agree with. He was in fact super fast at least speed of thought as shown. He was also stronger then wolverine. His physicall advantage clearly helped.

mr. x arch was not pis, but a lot of it was rather bull shit like wolverine needing to go berserker when he never had to before. The the whole claw thing and a few others the rest was fine though.

Updated official list and proposed changes update.

Current Hierarchy

Cosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Champion of the Universe, Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Thanos

Uber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Kirigi (DC), O-Sensei, Ogun, Snake Eyes, Stick

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Donatello, Echo, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Shatterstar, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Ares, Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Domino, Donna Troy, Hawkeye, Hercules, Huntress, Katana, Kingpin, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Moondragon, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Onyx, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thor, US Agent, V, Wild Child, Wong

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Black Cat, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Iron-Man, Jamie Madrox, Jubilee, Misty Knight, Mystique, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Zauriel

Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Apocalypse, Beast, Grace Choi, Hulk, Invisible Woman, Luke Cage, Monet St. Croix, Spider-Man, Strong Guy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)

[Marvel Top Tier]
Black Panther (1): Alfheim
Gorgon (3): jinzin, capt, Soljer?
Cable (1): Martian_Mind
[DC Top Tier]
Black Canary (1): DL

[Martian_Mind]
Boom Boom to Third: 1 (MM) /
[Nataku]
Ares to Second: 2 (V, Nat) / 2 (MM, Soljer)
[me]
Shatterstar to Third: 2 (me, jinzin?) / 0

Changes:
Lady Deathstrike moves to Second Tier; 3 (Soljer, capt and I) / 0
Black Bolt moves to Third; 3 (Accel, Soljer and I) / 0
Midnight Sun moves to Second; 3 (Soljer, V and I) / 1 (High_Scholar)
Colleen Wing moves to Third: 2 (mp and I) / 0
Domino to Second is defeated 1 (MM) / 3 (Soljer, me, mp)

Additions: Batwoman, M, V, Revanche, Apocalypse, Strong Guy, Madrox, Donna Troy and Grifter. Objections to their placement?
-Drax, Adam Warlock and Mar-Vell will be added after further discussion.
-There are two top tier spots open for Indie/Other that are left idle...

Comments:
-I also think Moondragon is being rated too low, but I personally don't have anything to make a case to move her higher. I recall someone posting that she's actually beaten Mantis?
-I've removed the votes on replacing Top Tiers and have replaced them with polls of sorts for a new Top Tier spot. Removed votes opposed to replacement. Let's say first to 5 votes takes the spot.
-Other nominations for the top spots?

V could probably go up

You should specify which MrTerrific

i can understand why Midnight Sun being moved, but put in second tier when he is equal to Shang chi (at his lowest point) and beaten him twice, infact in their final encouter he was going to kill him if not for his damn cape. espiically when the cat has difinative losses against Shang chi

at least Top Tier

gone for 2 Days and Midniht Sun is moved to second tier

I think Prometheus can be moved up a tier. He's beaten Batman before. Not to mention beating Lady Shiva in 3 seconds.

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
ok so if speed is not a factor are you going to tell me relexes are not a factor of martial arts skills?

just want to hear your thoughts before i comment further.

If reflexes are increased from MA training then it should be accounted for. If reflexes are increased by superhuman powers then it should not be.

Originally posted by jinzin
and yet in spite of all that he gets handled by spiderwoman.. 😐

he's third tier at best.

Does that really prove anything by itself that can be considered to be a low showing.

Night Thrasher has taken blacklash and boomerang at the same time apparently. Thats like taken on Bullseye and somebody else at the sametime. This is what is said about Boomerang.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang_(comics)
He can throw projectiles with nearly unerring accuracy, and his aim is nearly the peak of what a non-superpowered human can accomplish. Only characters like Bullseye and Hawkeye can match his accuracy.

Originally posted by jinzin

I siad they are of the same skill level.. 😕

the "not excessive" comment was made to point out that frank doesn't have MORE skill than a person like moonknight who is another third tier.

Nonsense.. you only think that because your overhypping punisher.. sorry but dd's more skilled and has a power that negates punisher's best advantage... aside from that punisher has admitted his superiority too many times to ignore.. unlike the table thing which happened once.. and yes taskmaster would lose to deadpool.. but it's due to HF not to skill.

Noooo bruv you got me wrong completely. I was under the impression that MK was second tier right? See where im coming from if you look at the Mk punisher fight you see that both MK and frank are both on a similar level. Before you said that he was third tier people were saying that Punisher was fighting differently to frank.
What happened was that people suddenly lost the ability to read and just decided that frank was fighting like Mk. Also Black Widow is second tier on this list and if you look at the fight between her and frank, frank was doing better. Also there were scans of Frank evading a suprise attack from Cap and then deflecting Caps shield and stopping it with his feet. Also back in the day Frank would lose to DD but not get curbstomped if you look at some of the fights it could be argued that they are PIS because he gets knocked out far too easy. I dont think Frank is better than DD I just think he should do better.

My point simply was that if you look at some of Franks showings some of his fights are badly written. As Apoc ducking from a table from Namor, the point is that he jobs alot and apparently there are lots of other examples im sure I could get from Trickster Priest.

You totally missed the point with Taskmaster. Taskmaster got beaten by Deadpool in handcuffs not because of his HF get it....it shouldnt happen because we know Taskmaster is more skilled than that. Also should Taskmaster **** his pants against MK if hes a third tier fighter?

Originally posted by jinzin

or enhancements.

wait.. you don't think DS is as fast as BP? 😐
😂

That wasnt even my point. You got the complete opposite of what I was trying to say.

Originally posted by jinzin

actually it was an admantium elbow to the thraot.. no pb isn't gettin up from that.

in a garth ennis issue, you want to refer to PIS events above but use this admittedly biased representation here? 🙄

no it can be argued as STRAIGHT PIS since you know.. garth ennis.. the guy who wrote the issue.. ADMITTED TO IT.

Ok, but then I can give you examples of Taskmaster getting beaten by DP in handcuffs and him too scared to fight MK. Taskmaster is top tier and Mk is third tier shouldnt he be able to take down MK.

The point is some people get beaten by people they shouldnt hence my example of Apoc.

Originally posted by jinzin
the first set of scans shows PB losing before intervention that proves nothing! the second is again, a lesson in humiliation on wolverine's part but it doesn't prove that BP is either more skilled than logan or his superior in combat. 😬

The only thing I can say is that in the first scan it seems that Wolverine was taking it more seriously than BP.

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
i can understand why Midnight Sun being moved, but put in second tier when he is equal to Shang chi (at his lowest point) and beaten him twice, infact in their final encouter he was going to kill him if not for his damn cape. espiically when the cat has difinative losses against Shang chi

at least Top Tier

That makes sense.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I think Prometheus can be moved up a tier. He's beaten Batman before. Not to mention beating Lady Shiva in 3 seconds.

He's already been argued and it's decided that it's not his skill,he just uses Tech,and on his own he''s third.

If we used him with tech we'd have to use Cap bustin Tony Stark....

cyclops up one...blackbolt down one...aaaaand if ares is going to be listed at all, he should probably be higher, considering his pedigree.

You're defending the moon knight/taskmaster match-up...but, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the moon knight have a bit of an advantage?

Like, crashing a plane into him kind of advantage?

Also; as has been explained to you time and time again, reflexes are about conditioning, not skill. Reflex feats should be ignored for the purposes of this thread.

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
i can understand why Midnight Sun being moved, but put in second tier when he is equal to Shang chi (at his lowest point) and beaten him twice, infact in their final encouter he was going to kill him if not for his damn cape. espiically when the cat has difinative losses against Shang chi

at least Top Tier

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
gone for 2 Days and Midniht Sun is moved to second tier

Midnight Sun was moved because with regard to skill those who voted for the move remained unconvinced he warranted placement next to Karate Kid.

The list isn't perfect. But it's about consensus not complaining.

Originally posted by Soljer
You're defending the moon knight/taskmaster match-up...but, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the moon knight have a bit of an advantage?

Like, crashing a plane into him kind of advantage?

Boy, well if you look at the fight thats not even why he was scared. He was scared because MK wasnt afraid to die.

MK even gave him the opportunity to kill him.

Originally posted by Soljer

Also; as has been explained to you time and time again, reflexes are about conditioning, not skill.

You cant have skill without conditioning. You cant have skill without reflexes. If Cap had crappy reflexes he wouldnt be top tier would he?

If DD fought Cap and DD couldnt lay a finger on him what would you think?

Originally posted by Soljer

Reflex feats should be ignored for the purposes of this thread.

What dodging punches? Countering moves? Thats should be ignored? If reflexes are gained from superhuman ability and enhancements then its not counted. If its due to MA training it should be.

But the Moon Knight/Taskmaster match up wasn't a fight. It was a confrontation where Tasky was scared sh*tless, but that doesn't attest to Moon Knight being anywhere near Taskmaster's level of skill.

Personally I'd piss myself too if a "hero" with a rep for being a lil off balance crashed a plane he was piloting into an office building and took an arrow in the heart.

Taskmaster may have lost the matchup because he was scared, but they didn't fight so how can you say that that Moon Knight is as skilled or more skilled than hew is. Btw, this is all with me ignoring the curbstop that Taskmaster pulled on Spector the previous issue

Originally posted by marvelprince
But the Moon Knight/Taskmaster match up wasn't a fight. It was a confrontation where Tasky was scared sh*tless, but that doesn't attest to Moon Knight being anywhere near Taskmaster's level of skill.

Personally I'd piss myself too if a "hero" with a rep for being a lil off balance crashed a plane he was piloting into an office building and took an arrow in the heart.

Taskmaster may have lost the matchup because he was scared, but they didn't fight so how can you say that that Moon Knight is as skilled or more skilled than hew is. Btw, this is all with me ignoring the curbstop that Taskmaster pulled on Spector the previous issue

And we're also ignoring the fact that Spector is probably in the worst condition (physically and mentally) he has ever been in during his super-heroing career (yes, even worse than that time with demogoblin).

EDIT- I have every single MK appearance on my computer, no way is he Taskmaster's better, he's just a physcho **** with ahellava damange soak -EDIT

Originally posted by CasanoVa
And we're also ignoring the fact that Spector is probably in the worst condition (physically and mentally) he has ever been in during his super-heroing career (yes, even worse than that time with demogoblin).

EDIT- I have every single MK appearance on my computer, no way is he Taskmaster's better, he's just a physcho **** with ahellava damange soak -EDIT

Exactly. His knees are busted, he hasn't worked out or put on the costume in a while plus he can't differentiate reality from fantasy. I've always thought he would be a good "foil" for Punisher cause they are similar in a lot of ways.

Btw, I also have a lot of MK appearances. Do you remember in Marvel Knights where he tried to fight one of Shang Chi's baddies (the weapons master) and got put in the hospital?

Originally posted by marvelprince
Exactly. His knees are busted, he hasn't worked out or put on the costume in a while plus he can't differentiate reality from fantasy. I've always thought he would be a good "foil" for Punisher cause they are similar in a lot of ways.

Btw, I also have a lot of MK appearances. Do you remember in Marvel Knights where he tried to fight one of Shang Chi's baddies (the weapons master) and got put in the hospital?

Yeah, I reckon he's improved since then though to be honest 😬 quite a bad showing on his part. But like he said he wears white so he can be seen, he doesn't even bother try to dodge bullets or kicks and punches either.

He would be quite a good foil for Punisher actually, isn't Frank going to be appearing in an upcoming issue? MK is selling reaaally well for an obscure character, its one of the best reads I have actually.. especially Khosnu, hes the star of the book for me.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Yeah, I reckon he's improved since then though to be honest 😬 quite a bad showing on his part. But like he said he wears white so he can be seen, he doesn't even bother try to dodge bullets or kicks and punches either.

He would be quite a good foil for Punisher actually, isn't Frank going to be appearing in an upcoming issue? MK is selling [b]reaaally well for an obscure character, its one of the best reads I have actually.. especially Khosnu, hes the star of the book for me. [/B]

Actually I don't think it was a bad showing at all. He did well for someone not on Shang's level and he was caught off guard, was a bit cocky and didn't even have his costume on for any sort of protection. Damage wise I would have expected him to take a lot more punishment though.

I think Frank is appearing in the next issue. Can't wait to read it. I am surprised that MK is doing really well. Thought that it would be one of those books that I have to shamelessly plug everywhere, but its really standing on its own feet. I hope Huston reconsiders and sticks around after his 13 issues are up. Oh and Khoshu is the breakout star for me in this book too. His dark humour really works well.

is alf stil argueing moving up punisher lol?

http://spider-bob.com/villains/dc/LadyVic.htm

Lady Vic could probably go in the third tier.

Originally posted by marvelprince
But the Moon Knight/Taskmaster match up wasn't a fight. It was a confrontation where Tasky was scared sh*tless, but that doesn't attest to Moon Knight being anywhere near Taskmaster's level of skill.

Personally I'd piss myself too if a "hero" with a rep for being a lil off balance crashed a plane he was piloting into an office building and took an arrow in the heart.

Taskmaster may have lost the matchup because he was scared, but they didn't fight so how can you say that that Moon Knight is as skilled or more skilled than hew is. Btw, this is all with me ignoring the curbstop that Taskmaster pulled on Spector the previous issue

Thats not even the point. My point is that events happen in comics that shouldnt happen.

On this list MK is third tier, Taskmaster is top tier. Why is he ****ing his pants?

Furthermore MK gave Taskmaster the opportunity to kill him. Taskmaster hasnt been in danegerous situations before? All of a sudden hes too scared to fight? Doesnt make any sense.