Originally posted by Martian_mindIts never been stated that Jason holds back against Dick, thats just something you assume and insist on claiming everytime people compare the two. It has been said Dick holds back against Jason though.
Jason holds back against Dick as well.Everytime they fought he asked Dick if he wanted to team up and become the "Nightwingers".He also called him brother and saved him and cheyenne from a superstrong thug.Once he wanted to talk and Dick went apeshit on him for no reason...
Considering Jasons showings against Batman,is it that farfetched to believe he is better then Dick?
And Jason didn't suggest they team up "Everytime", he did it like once didn't he? The first time Dick sees him in the Nightwing costume. As for saving Dick and Cheyenne, those two had to go and save Jason after he got himself captured and Jason thanked Dick for coming after him.
Hierarchy repost, proposed changes and voting updated.
Current Hierarchy
Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists)
Champion of the Universe, Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Thanos
Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists)
Kirigi (DC), O-Sensei, Ogun, Snake-Eyes, Stick
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Donatello, Echo, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Ares, Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Domino, Donna Troy, Hawkeye, Hercules, Huntress, Katana, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Moondragon, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Onyx, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thor, US Agent, V, Wild Child, Wong
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Black Cat, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Iron-Man, Jamie Madrox, Jubilee, Misty Knight, Mystique, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Zauriel
Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Apocalypse, Beast, Grace Choi, Hulk, Invisible Woman, Luke Cage, Monet St. Croix, Spider-Man, Strong Guy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Top Tier
[Marvel Top Tier]
Gorgon (3): jinzin, capt, Soljer?
Cable (1): Martian_Mind
Black Panther (2): Alfheim, Apolloknight
[DC Top Tier]
Black Canary (2): DL, me (tentatively)
Red Hood (1): Martian_Mind
Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
[Spunky]:
Taskmaster down to second: 2 (MM, Spunky) / 3 (Nataku, Trickster, Soljer)
Moondragon to Uber: 3 (Spunky, me, Soljer) / 0
[me]
Mantis down to Uber: 2 (me, Soljer) / 0
[capt]
Snake-Eyes down to top tier: 2? (capt, jinzin?) / 1? (shrank?)
Additions:
Changes:
-Hasn't really been any discussion of Drax, Adam Warlock and Mar-Vell?
-There are two top tier spots open for Indie/Other that are left idle...
-Snake-Eyes is considered indie right? Perhaps he should take one of these spots instead. I'm not sure if he belongs alongside Moondragon, Ogun etc.
Comments:
-I changed the parentheses for the Cosmic and Uber tiers. Better or worse? Not that they mean all that much anyway.
-Removed the votes for Moondragon to top tier. Replaced by Spunky's proposed change for Moondragon to uber. If there's no opposition to the move it will occur soon.
-Any consensus on whether and where to move Champion?
-My vote goes to Black Canary before Red Hood for DC top tier spot.
X needs sleep.
Yes to Moondragon to uber.
The proposed top tier Marvel and Dc spots. Do they require someone to be voted out? If they don't and the proposal will simply be additions to the list then I vote for Black Canary for the top DC spot and Panther for the top Marvel spot.
Vote against moving Taskmaster down.
No to Red Hood moving to the top spot.
Oh and I'm also against Gorgon to the top cause we no way of discerning how much of his prowess is based on actual skill or based on his crapload of powers.
Originally posted by Wally West
Its never been stated that Jason holds back against Dick, thats just something you assume and insist on claiming everytime people compare the two. It has been said Dick holds back against Jason though.And Jason didn't suggest they team up "Everytime", he did it like once didn't he? The first time Dick sees him in the Nightwing costume. As for saving Dick and Cheyenne, those two had to go and save Jason after he got himself captured and Jason thanked Dick for coming after him.
Can you show any scene were Jason looks even mildly commited to beat Dick?All i see is him cracking Jokes and smiling.
He still calls Him brother,so it's obvious he has no hard feelings and has no reason to harm him.Plus that 1 time Dick hgadc an advantage in H2H Jason wanted to talk,so he was definetly holding back there.
Yes,they saved eachother in the end,plus Jason was the one who saved Dick after he was thrown from that building.
I'd say if there is an open spot in Marvel, it should go to Daredevil first. Even before Bullseye.
And it'd go to Bullseye before the Black Panther.
I'm for Black Canary to top tier, TOTALLY against Red Hood - Nightwing's his superior. No amount of biased respect threads will change that.
I understand everyone's problem with Gorgon, and, hell, it seems like MY opinion on him changes from day to day. I think Wolverine admitting that Gorgon's out-skilling him at every turn has to count for something. The guy has limited appearances, but in those appearances, it'd seem that he was Wolverine's superior. Kinda like Constantine Drakon. Guy has limited appearances, but it was clear he was Connor Hawke's superior. 😬.
Though my vote's already been taken into account, I'd like to say that I am against moving Taskmaster down. While it is unclear how much of his fighting prowess (probably nearly all of it) is a direct result of his power, the fact remains unchanged that the fighting prowess was there. He obtained his skills by alternative means but, regardless, he has them NOW. If he suddenly lost his 'powers,' his skills would remain. He isn't analogous to Prometheus, who if you removed his helmet, he would drop tiers (though, with it, I think he should be higher than he currently is.) The best analogy that comes to mind right now is from the Matrix, as lame as that is. Neo and company didn't train all their life for their martial skill. They downloaded it into their head. They obtained it by alternative means. At the end of the day, though? That still made them the most skilled fighters on the planet.
Snake eyes? 😕.
I think that's everything. 😬.
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
IMO Bullseye > Daredevil... but not by a lot.
🤨 And that would be because?
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
And for all the skills that Taskmaster has, he still gets his ass handed to him by a chained up, limbs-bound Deadpool, with ease, and then comments on how good Wilson is...What are people's thoughts on Agent X/Deadpool for top tier?
Taskmaster is probably more skilled than all street lvl characters in Marvel. The thing that separates him from the Caps, DD's, Wolvie, etc is that his fighting ability/smarts suck. The skills arent the problem.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He has fought DD and Elektra at the same time and held his own?<.<
>.>Elektra is Daredevils superior also. 😎
Mainly due to durability Bullseye has held his own against the both. DD alone has his way with him more times than not.
Secondly Elektra isnt Matts superior. He always holds back when fighting her.✅
Although Taskmaster does have a mutant power it's sole function is to improve his memory. Photographic reflexes just speed the rate that he learns, they don't effect his actual ability to fight.
Using his powers to mirror every move his opponent makes in a fight in order to force a stalemate would be using his power to directly effect the outcome but I don't know if he's ever done that.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Although Taskmaster does have a mutant power it's sole function is to improve his memory. Photographic reflexes just speed the rate that he learns, they don't effect his actual ability to fight.Using his powers to mirror every move his opponent makes in a fight in order to force a stalemate would be using his power to directly effect the outcome but I don't know if he's ever done that.
Taskmaster isn't a mutant... he just has photographic reflexes.
And contrary to popular belief its not just a "monkey see monkey do" thing. He has to be able to actually perform the move.
And no matter how you look at it they are "his" skills. He just acquired them by watching how they are performed. If you take away his photographic reflexes he can still perform all the moves he's learned so they count as his.