Originally posted by Alfheim
Getting beaten by the Champion is not a low-showing hes an Elder who has dedictaed his life to H2H combat (billions of years), so that was expected. He then proceeded to fight SS and even though he lost it was a pretty good fight. Champion was punching him about everywhere and dodged one of his blasts.Hes also beaten Namor in H2H. I dont know where he goes but Namor has shown knowledge of pressure points and various martial arts and is not just a class 100 brick. Thor is not an MA expert but he has shown even while depowered that hes pretty good at H2H. Champion was dodging his blows and commenting on how sloppy Thor was.
We also have to bear in mind that powers gained through training is part of MA skill. Elders most likely don,t start off with vast superhuman powers but they gain it over billions of years of training. So Champions immortality, strength, durability is party of his skill.
And never did I say losing to Champion is a low showing.
I said Vision saving her twice is.
My statement said her losing easily to Champion means Mantis is not "Karate Kid level." Even outside of that fight there's being helpless against Drax and Wonderman.
Why do I say its not Karate Kid level you ask? Well Mantis has not shown esoteric skills like KK IMO as well. But from what I hear current showings of KK are also going down hill.
So maybe the old Pre Crisis KK is gone for good.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Should I take that as a vote against Champion to Cosmic (alongside the likes of Gamora and Karate Kid) or a vote against moving Mantis down, or both? 🙂
Ok you do realise that if people gain powers through martial art training that this counts as skill?
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4811/vsheroes2lo5.jpg
Do you know any MAs that can do this? The Elders powers vary according to what pastimes they have commited themselves to for example Contemplator has vast mental powers. Collector has no powers (apart from immortality) because all he does is collect stuff and has alot of hi-tech.
The Champions vast power comes from his MA training so when we see him fighting Silver Surfer for example that is counted as skill.
I very much doubt that without the Power Primordial and the Power Gem etc. etc. he could have attained class 100 strength, endurance, durability, being able to "blast people with fury" etc. etc. (i.e. all the stuff he's supposed to have yet still manages to kinda suck with) no matter how much training he decided to do. And it's going to take a lot more than speculation to convince me that such a notion is more than speculation.
I'm satisfied with where he is now, so my vote remains.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I very much doubt that without the Power Primordial and the Power Gem etc. etc. he could have attained class 100 strength, endurance, durability, being able to "blast people with fury" etc. etc.
I could say the samething about Iron Fist. 😬 He doesnt have class 100 strength but he has powers due to his MA training. Its blantantly obvious that Elders do not start with vast superhuman powers but get powerful as time goes by.
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Elders_of_the_Universe
Each of the Elders have spent their eons-long life engaged in highly individual pursuits and pastimes. Long ago, the various Elders discovered that if they did not choose an all-encompassing pastime to pursue, they would lose their will to live thus surrendering their immortality. The Collector's wife Mattani lived for billions of years before succumbing to apathy. Some Elders have chosen to develop their full physical and mental potentials, thus becoming extremely powerful beings. Others have not and rely on technology to perform various feats. It is not known precisely how many Elders there are in the universe.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
(i.e. all the stuff he's supposed to have yet still manages to kinda suck with) no matter how much training he decided to do.
Curbstomping Namor and Mantis? Giving Silver Surfer a run for his money?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And it's going to take a lot more than speculation to convince me that such a notion is more than speculation.
What on earth are you talking about whats speculation that has his powerd due to MA training? If thats what you are refering to its not look at my quote.
its not going to make any difference but this is my last 2cents
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah I know, anyway think ive had enough talking about Champion. Interetingly enough it was stated to an extent that the Elders where not using the gems properly in the Thanos Quest, so alot of those feats could have been done without the gems, as Champion stated afterwards "the thing never worked anyway".Even after She-Hulk beat Champion she implied that Champion would have still beaten the others without the gem.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/SheHulk80067.jpg
Gladiator: Though you do realize that without his gem of power, any one of us could have defeated him.
She-Hulk: Yeah, Gladiator? Keep tellin yourself that.
Who said I even considered Iron Fists non-skill powers when I voted for where he is (if I did even vote for where he is.)
It's "blatantly obvious" to me that his class 100 strength, endurance durability etc etc is derived from his ability to utilize the Power Primordial. If we're going to use bios then:
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/championoftheuniverse.htm
"The limits of the Champion's strength are not known. In Earth's gravity, he can lift (press) at least 100 tons. His strength derives from the channeling of cosmic energy for physical use."
"The Champion controls the power primordial, the energy derived from the Big Bang itself. He has channeled this power into the development of his physical form: his musculature, his reflexes, his stamina, and his strength, while the exercise of human strength taps electro-chemical energies of the complex molecules in the body, the Champion's strength taps cosmic nuclear energies. His physical strength is only determined by the amount of cosmic energy his finite form can contain. This limit has yet to be seen. He apparently never tires since his body has the ability to tap whatever energies it needs to recuperate. He cannot be hurt by any means short of molecular dispersion. Having channeled all of the cosmic energy as his command into making his body a perfect fighting machine, the Champion can no longer direct that energy from his body into force-blast as many other energy manipulators can."
It's powers derived from Power Primordial.
Marvel.com doesn't currently have an entry for Champion that I'm aware of, so I deferred to Marvel Directory - which one should note has the exact same entry for the Elders of the Universe as the link you posted above.
It's also irrelevant as to me at least, having cl100 strength doesn't make me go "Wow, how skilled." regardless of where that strength derives.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Who said I even considered Iron Fists non-skill powers when I voted for where he is (if I did even vote for where he is.)
I never said that you did. It has been established that powers gained through training can be considered to be skill.
Originally posted by Alfheim
If reflexes are increased from MA training then it should be accounted for. If reflexes are increased by superhuman powers then it should not be.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Are we counting Chi mastery as part of skill?
Originally posted by Soljer
If the guy is human, and can shred Iron Man's armor through mere training, I'd say we have to. 😬.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
N.B. a "power" derived from what one would define as a "skill basis" such as chi amping, may be taken into consideration in the rankings.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It's "blatantly obvious" to me that his class 100 strength, endurance durability etc etc is derived from his ability to utilize the Power Primordial. If we're going to use bios then:
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/championoftheuniverse.htm
"The limits of the Champion's strength are not known. In Earth's gravity, he can lift (press) at least 100 tons. His strength derives from the channeling of cosmic energy for physical use."
"The Champion controls the power primordial, the energy derived from the Big Bang itself. He has channeled this power into the development of his physical form: his musculature, his reflexes, his stamina, and his strength, while the exercise of human strength taps electro-chemical energies of the complex molecules in the body, the Champion's strength taps cosmic nuclear energies. His physical strength is only determined by the amount of cosmic energy his finite form can contain. This limit has yet to be seen. He apparently never tires since his body has the ability to tap whatever energies it needs to recuperate. He cannot be hurt by any means short of molecular dispersion. Having channeled all of the cosmic energy as his command into making his body a perfect fighting machine, the Champion can no longer direct that energy from his body into force-blast as many other energy manipulators can."It's powers derived from Power Primordial.
Marvel.com doesn't currently have an entry for Champion that I'm aware of, so I deferred to Marvel Directory - which one should note has the exact same entry for the Elders of the Universe as the link you posted above.
Temugin can shread Iron mans armour through Chi ampage.....and? No Chi ampage no shredded armour and thats why he is where he is.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It's also irrelevant as to me at least, having cl100 strength doesn't make me go "Wow, how skilled." regardless of where that strength derives.
Thats irrelevant wether it doesnt impress your or not. Class 100 strength is dangerous and he got it through training. You know why...because the Collector is a wealking because he didnt spend his time developing powers. The power promordial does not automatically give you powers you still have to train, but it does give you immortality 😬
Furthermore they gained the power primodial from being dedicated to their tasks. Thats why other species died out and they didnt.
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Elders_of_the_Universe
Long ago, the various Elders discovered that if they did not choose an all-encompassing pastime to pursue, they would lose their will to live thus surrendering their immortality. The Collector's wife Mattani lived for billions of years before succumbing to apathy.
If Champion had not been obsessed with his training he would not have gained the power. No training no power primordial. They didnt actively seek out the power primordial it was a side affect of being obsessed by their pastimes. 😐
The Collector didn't use the Power Primordial to augment physical strength. The Power Primordial doesn't give any specific powers but among other things it can be channeled into physicality. You've posted nothing, to convince me at least, that in absence of his external cosmic power source he'd have any of the superhuman abilities he has.
Champion's strength comes from that he has access to the Power Primordial. Champion's endurance comes from that he can tap into near infinite cosmic energy. Champion's durability comes from that he's an immortal whose body is infused with cosmic energy. It as much as spells this out clearly and definitively in the quotes I posted above.
If the Silver Surfer channels the Power Cosmic into augmenting his physicality, I'm not going "Ooh, look he's strong; must be skilled."
It's relevant whether or not it impresses me or anyone else, because it's my and others' votes he's after - and my vote still remains as is, so it's still three votes nay, one vote aye. Edit: Four votes nay, reminder to self, I missed Fake McCoy's vote in the last update.
Also NB it doesn't state anywhere in that passage (you've posted twice now for some reason,) that they attained ability to manipulate the cosmic energy of the Power Primordial by dedication to a hobby; unless one somehow manages to interpret it really really loosely. All it states is that should they lose their will to live, they would lose their immortality and die.
Originally posted by llagrok
You need to read up on some really basic Iron Fist.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/Fist/Iron_Fist_8_0007.jpg
****ing moron.
Originally posted by Alfheim
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/Fist/Iron_Fist_8_0007.jpg****ing moron.
Iron Fist doesn't use regular chi, his one is coming from mystical dragon and it's assumed it is>>>> regular chi.
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Iron Fist doesn't use regular chi, his one is coming from mystical dragon and it's assumed it is>>>> regular chi.
So? He got it by training didnt he? He also has used chi even when he doesnt have the Iron fist.
Im also not even sure if its more powerful tahn regular chi. Ive seen Temugin heal instantly from Iron Mans attacks and he just uses chi. We can clearly see him in the scans meditating. Obvoulsy he had to learn to train to do that.
