Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, Ilgarok, we don't need you insulting Artemis. We talk about the characters and decide to move them up/down/etc. She made her point, you made yours....no need to devolve this thread into the mindless bashing drivel that dominates the vs. forum.😬
I'm sorry, you missed the part where she started by repeatedly calling me a retard, AFTER I told her not to start insulting? I was just as guilty, but there's no reason to single me out.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Shang Chi is low meta?
I think he's supposed to be one of the top street levellers, isn't he? I'll vote for if you give me a feat comparable to a random low meta.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
😑 I didn't change anything. All I did was add a few suggestions at the end. I figured I might have to argue to get the 4th world guys in. 😕
Ah.
Originally posted by llagrok
I'm sorry, you missed the part where she started by repeatedly calling me a retard, AFTER I told her not to start insulting? I was just as guilty, but there's no reason to single me out.
I just have to call it like I see it. Sorry if it was one-sided, but it's never really valid justification. But it seems to be over with now, so no worries unless it repeats itself.
Beta Ray Bill is getting hosed in this thing. He's no Thor Wanabe. He beat Thor straight up and took his hammer (showing he's worthy). Then in a hand-to-hand contest with Thor, he won again. Now, one may argue that his hammer isn't as powerful as Thor's, but they would be wrong. It's equal and to put him below Thor is also wrong.
His hammer is equal in potential but Thor has done dozens of things with his hammer that Bill never has. And when it comes to wielding a weapon as diverse as theirs, experience counts for a lot, since it takes centuries to use the hammer to its maximum potential. That's been the point all along. Beyond that, the closest thing Bill has to a "win" over Thor is the stalemate brawl where they both knocked each other out and Odin rigged the environment to favor BRB's physiology.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
His hammer is equal in potential but Thor has done dozens of things with his hammer that Bill never has. And when it comes to wielding a weapon as diverse as theirs, experience counts for a lot, since it takes centuries to use the hammer to its maximum potential. That's been the point all along. Beyond that, the closest thing Bill has to a "win" over Thor is the stalemate brawl where they both knocked each other out and Odin rigged the environment to favor BRB's physiology.
I readily concede the experience element. Good point there. However, the stalemate brawl was not a stalemate. Bill got up and save Thor. That's a win for him. I have Rocky II precidence that for that. Both went down...Rocky got the win and the belt. The "rigged environment" was just an environment...not rigged. Lastly, what was the reason they even had that brawl? Answer. Beta Ray Bill got his hat handed to him by a Bill without a hammer, he took Thor's hammer and they were fighting for the rights to it.
Actually, now that I think about it. Experience with the hammer is still not enough to bring Bill down a level. Fine, give him the nod in a fight against Thor...a very long, protracted fight that leaves Thor spent. But to put him an entire level below just because of experience with the hammer itself? Naw...Bill can do all that stuff if needed. Bill did some amazing stuff vs a herald of Galactus.
The List
Sub-Skyfather (Transcendent)
Amazo, Appolyon, The Asgardian Destroyer,Black Racer, Blackheart, Blaze, Circe, Count Abyss, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, Gray Man, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), Jenny Quantum, The Keeper, King Thor, Magus (original), Mangog, Mongul I (Pre Crisis), Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Queen of Fables, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Solomon Grundy (Peak), Solusandra, Stayne, Strange Visitor, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Tanaraq, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus
Herald
High
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Beta Ray Bill, Cyborg Superman, The Eradicator (Fortress Mode), Genis-Vell, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Hal, Kilowog), Infinity-Man, Majestic, Mon-El, Moonstone (w/ both stones), Qztr, The Sentry, The Silver Surfer, Sinestro, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman (including B/R and AS), Thor, The Void
Middle
Alexander Nero, Binary, Black Adam, Black Bolt, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Cpt. Comet,Captain Marvel (DC), Damien Hellstrom, Doomsday, Evinlea, The Fallen One, Firelord, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), General Zod, Green Lantern (Guy, John, Katma, Kyle, Alan), Hyperion, Ikaris, Imperiex Probes, Kid Omega, Lobo, Loki, Magus (Post-IG), Martian Manhunter, Maxima\, Morg, Nate Grey, Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Swamp Thing, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Wonder Woman
Low
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, Argent, The Atom, Aztek, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Count Nefaria, Damage, Darkness, Darwin, Death's Head 3.0, Death Metal, Dr. Doom, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firestorm, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gammid, Gamora (w/Godslayer), Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, Green Lantern (Soranik Natu), He-Man, Hector Hammond, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jade, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jack of Hearts, Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Lightray, Living Monolith, Lunatik, Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Man-Beast, Manchester Black, Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Mr. M, Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Richard Rider (current), Plastic Man, Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Sersi, Shadow King, Shaman, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Ultra-Humanite, Ultron, Union, Vulcan, Winter, Zauriel,
Metahuman (Mid-tier "Iron Man" level)
High
Abomination, Adam Strange, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Batman 1 Million, Battalion (Jackson King), Blastaar, Blob, Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Death's Head II, Donna Troy, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian I, Havok, Hellstrike, Hercules (Mortal), Holocaust, The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Jenny Sparks, Juggernaut (Depowered), Kang, Karate Kid, Living Laser, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Mercer Drake, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Nightshade, Nimrod, Northstar, Ocean Master, Osiris, Pitt, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Radioactive Man, Sand, Sasquatch, Shassa, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Supernova, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Vision, War Machine, Wonder Man, Zzaxx
Middle
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Beetle (Jamie Reyes), Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Box, Carnage, Cloak, Corrin, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Death's Head, Death Wreck, Dust, Electro, Elijah Snow, Farenheit, Flint, Fuji, Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze), Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Grace Choi, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, Matua, M.O.D.O.K., Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Ogun, Quicksilver (classic), Ragman, Rogue, rom, Shadowcat, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Tiger Shark, Toxin, Vance Astro, Vengeance, Wonder Girl, Enchantress
Low
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Blue Beetle (Dan Garrett), Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Cyber, Dagger, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Elixer, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Molly Hayes, Multiple Man, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Omega Red, Orka Humbug, Prometheus, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2099, Spider-Woman, Swift, Thunder Cats, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Warlock (Technarchy/Phalanx), Warpath, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar
Street Level
High
Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, Captain America, The Cat, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Hush, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, Union Jack, X-23
Middle
Red Hood , Arsenal/Red Arrow, Baron Zemo, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Crossbones, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Joker, Mach IV, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Peacemaker, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Rose Tattoo, Turok, Wildcat
Low
Alfred, Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Christine Trelane, Colleen Wing, Night Thrasher, Obregon Kaine, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Robin, Talia, White Tiger
Falcon and Vulture at the same level as Spider-man, Green Goblin and Venom? Just because they can fly? No.
Barry Allen below Bart and Wally? He could vibrate his hand in such a way that it could give a super-powered punch. He could vibrate so fast he could become intangible. He was a master at time travel and dimensional jumps. He's out-raced LIGHTNING!!!
Doomsday should go up another step. He is CONSTANTLY improving and adapting and is pure bloodlust. If he were thrown into the event horizon of a black hole, he'd still find a way to eventually get out. He was even able to adapt to Manhunter's intangibility. (side note: Doomsday has one of the best origins in history)
Cable, even at full power, is not one above Apocolypse.
Power Girl so low? At the same level as the Tick? I don't even want to hear an explanation for this one.
Black Widow needs to be one higher. Marvel Knight series shows why.
Adam Strange so high? At the same level as Power Girl? No....
Due to recent events, Mary Marvel needs to go up one or two levels.
I'm guessing that Mr. Fantastic's level is due to intelligence and his ability to defeat baddies with science...no objection here...just thinking and typing at the same time.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
His hammer is equal in potential but Thor has done dozens of things with his hammer that Bill never has. And when it comes to wielding a weapon as diverse as theirs, experience counts for a lot, since it takes centuries to use the hammer to its maximum potential. That's been the point all along. Beyond that, the closest thing Bill has to a "win" over Thor is the stalemate brawl where they both knocked each other out and Odin rigged the environment to favor BRB's physiology.
and the Surfer has been using the PC faaar longer than Stardust yet they're on the same level...
meh, just throwing it out there...
