Originally posted by DigiDigi, it seems like you're reading into my post way too much. I was very succinct in my opinion. If you would rather leave low meta and up for characters that have some sort of "super power", then that's cool.
Trying to objectify tiers would cause too many problems. We gauge the tiers by who is in them, aside from the occasional benchmark character like Surfer.We also don't include prep. So the "brilliant minds" bit can only mean so much.
As for Batman, take for example Green Goblin. While his bag o' tricks might not always be as diversified as Batman's, we should be able to agree that his "standard" arsenal at least matches Batman's in offensive output (and I believe I'm being generous there). Now add to that his Class 10 strength and durability, and you have a character clearly beyond a no-prep Batman. And Goblin is hardly the class of the low meta tier, and could be considered beneath a fair number of low metas.
Individual matchups don't make a placement. But that's not what I'm doing here. I'm showing someone clearly beyond Batman, then asserting that he's in the lower half of the low meta tier.
Finding 1-2 that Batman might take a majority off of is a popular tactic for anyone looking to get someone moved up. But it's not sufficient, imo, and that's the best anyone has been able to do. This isn't the "can he beat Angel sometimes" tier, which, according to some recent scans, he might not even be capable of.
Brilliant minds do play a role with or without prep. Tactical skills, martial arts/fighting skills, threat recognition as well IQ are all part of "total power in all its forms" as stated in the opening post.
My point is very simple. Characters like Bats, Cap and Daredevil have regularly exceeded what's considered peak human levels for years. And it's just my opinion that since those characters exceed what a peak human can accomplish through strength, endurance, brains, training, weapons, knowledge, etc, that they be given due consideration.
As for the tiers, it would be odd to have Bats, Cap, Spidey and Wolvie all in the same category. That's why I thew out a new tier between high street and low meta.
If we're grading characters by other characters, then it's close but I still think Bats and Cap to be low meta.
Originally posted by Badabing
Digi, it seems like you're reading into my post way too much. I was very succinct in my opinion. If you would rather leave low meta and up for characters that have some sort of "super power", then that's cool.Brilliant minds do play a role with or without prep. Tactical skills, martial arts/fighting skills, threat recognition as well IQ are all part of "total power in all its forms" as stated in the opening post.
My point is very simple. Characters like Bats, Cap and Daredevil have regularly exceeded what's considered peak human levels for years. And it's just my opinion that since those characters exceed what a peak human can accomplish through strength, endurance, brains, training, weapons, knowledge, etc, that they be given due consideration.
As for the tiers, it would be odd to have Bats, Cap, Spidey and Wolvie all in the same category. That's why I thew out a new tier between high street and low meta.
If we're grading characters by other characters, then it's close but I still think Bats and Cap to be low meta.
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Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Konton, Zatanna was voted to mid-herald, not sure why she wasn't added. These seem to be changes that have garnered enough votes to make for official changes.Wally West to high herald
Zatanna to mid herald
Jubilee to mid meta
Gamora to high metaOf course not, I just wanted to make Smurph's day.
for wally.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Which would be why Cyclops is in mid meta. This does nothing to diminish Cap's feats at all, which, as you've now pointed out, are very good.
no offence, but bad example. cyclops being mid meta is ridiculous, tbh, he should be in high.
Originally posted by Badabing
Digi, it seems like you're reading into my post way too much. I was very succinct in my opinion. If you would rather leave low meta and up for characters that have some sort of "super power", then that's cool.Brilliant minds do play a role with or without prep. Tactical skills, martial arts/fighting skills, threat recognition as well IQ are all part of "total power in all its forms" as stated in the opening post.
My point is very simple. Characters like Bats, Cap and Daredevil have regularly exceeded what's considered peak human levels for years. And it's just my opinion that since those characters exceed what a peak human can accomplish through strength, endurance, brains, training, weapons, knowledge, etc, that they be given due consideration.
As for the tiers, it would be odd to have Bats, Cap, Spidey and Wolvie all in the same category. That's why I thew out a new tier between high street and low meta.
If we're grading characters by other characters, then it's close but I still think Bats and Cap to be low meta.
Fair enough.
I happily concede that intelligence plays a part in the rankings. But we don't consider prep, so it's worth is limited. Nearly everyone Batman shares a tier with currently has combat acumen and MA skill. So my point was only that it's a small consideration. Batman could range from street to Herald if we allowed prep, so it was necessary from a clarity standpoint to not consider it in the ranks. As such, I think he belongs where he is.
Now, more to the point, there isn't an exact demarcation between the tiers, so if you're looking for a point where they pass into "superhuman" to vote them up to LM, then you're reading the tiers incorrectly. The tier is not just "do you have a power?" because that would create an arbitrary line that wouldn't be an actual judge of total power. The tiers are defined by who is in them, not an arbitrary power line. Thus, my point was never that Batman doesn't have an occasional high-end feat that could be considered metahuman. He very well might. But my point was simply that he didn't belong with the others in low meta. You said yourself how it would be strange for Bats and Cap to keep such company, and that should be all the evidence you need to keep them where they are.
I also don't think such a divide exists that we need a new tier just for Batman and Cap. Are they really that much above their peers in a non-prep scenario? Black Panther? Hawkeye? Batgirl? Classic Kingpin? I could go on. These are characters that should be mentioned in the same breath, not as lessers.
So my vote stands, but thanks for clarifying.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Clearly a demonstration of as much power as Batman's demonstrated.
It's completely irrelevant/worthless in a combat related scenario.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
How is that relevant?Cyclops wouldn't survive a building destroying blast either. Should he be in high street?
Earlier I stated that Mr. Terrific had human durability and you countered this point by saying the equivalent of "yeah, well that doesn't matter considering he can create.... " etc.
It seemed, at least to me, that you were implying Mr. Terrific's tech could compensate for human durability and allow him some form of protection.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
lolwut?All that I said was that Elektra's proficiency for telepathy allowing her to take over multiple soldiers on a whim and directing them to do her bidding was as much a demonstration of power as Batman's capacity to survive or cause a destructive blast.
Ergo, Elektra has as much reason to be in low meta.
Meh, I see Batman as being above/more powerful than her. And her telepathy isn't really all that impressive.
However, out of everyone you listed, I could easily see a case for her being moved to low meta. Especially considering the fact that guys like Shang Chi are there. I assumed she was there already before we even had this discussion. We should vote on her next.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Proof that that's all it was? If so, has he ever used one that powerful? Sounds pretty groundless to me.
He uses exploding batarangs on a rather consistent basis. Plus, the League was dragged into an alternate dimension by "Z" without warning. It's not like there was any time to prepare for it.
And Batman has used explosives that have destroyed Alexander Nero's constructs before.
It's not groundless at all.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Ah, my mistake, I forgot that we were only allowed to consider Batman's highest feats.
I'm not even using Batman's "highest feats" in order to bump him up to low meta.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Batman surviving a ground zero explosion is less PIS than Batman surviving a powerful punch because less people have done it?
Cap, DD, Spidey, etc. have all taken shots from Hulk before. That's just the way it goes.
But can you honestly say they'd be able to survive at ground zero of a building destroying blast? No, because there's absolutely no logical reason for it, and no justification to back it up.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
It's also one of Batman's highest, which is not the basis by which we judge characters.
One of Batman's highest? He's done the same feat multiple times. It's a pretty consistent showing, which is what we base the tiers off of.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Which would be why Cyclops is in mid meta. This does nothing to diminish Cap's feats at all, which, as you've now pointed out, are very good.
It has more to do with comic book politics more than anything.
Batman has beaten on WW, Lobo, Grundy, Aquaman, etc. However, I'm not using any of that in order to justify his move up.
Batman bloodies up Darkseid, but Lobo breaks his hand trying to punch Darkseid. It's the same type of shit with Cap.
In any case, Batman has more power output which is the reason why I see him getting the bump to low meta.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Except Cap's shield is more consistent than a batkick, significantly harder to avoid, hits multiple opponents, deals more damage, etc.It's just far more "powerful".
I guess it's a good thing Batman has the batkick + his utility belt + his armor to fall back on.
For Wally to High Herald- Raoul/Pr (Does that count as two?), Kris, Rage, iceman24567, Philosophia, Endless Mike, Average Savage, Naija, Habinger, WarLord, Battlehammer, Leonidas, Creshosk, Enyalus
Against Wally to High Herald- Digi, kgkg, xJLxKing, darthgoober, NewJak, Batdude
That's, 14 for, and 6 against. 15 if you count Pr/Raoul as two votes
Wally needs to be moved.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
For Wally to High Herald- Raoul/Pr (Does that count as two?), Kris, Rage, iceman24567, Philosophia, Endless Mike, Average Savage, Naija, Habinger, WarLord, Battlehammer, Leonidas, Creshosk, EnyalusAgainst Wally to High Herald- Digi, kgkg, xJLxKing, darthgoober, NewJak, Batdude
That's, 14 for, and 6 against. 15 if you count Pr/Raoul as two votes
Wally needs to be moved.
why would you count me as two votes? did i vote twice by accident?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You voted for as Raoul a while back, in the original discussion we never finished, and you recently voted in your Pr account. That's why.
oh... see, i thought the one i posted in before had been shot down. my bad...
cyclops to high meta, based on a) power output b) tactical genius on par with damn near anyone and accuracy that puts most people to shame, and c) some nice feats.
for people worried about his durability, he's been shot and smacked by sentinels and been fine.
Btw, does anyone else besides me find that Digi's justification for why Batman doesn't belong in the low meta tier a little... I don't know... hypocritical?
He's saying that the tiers aren't based on individual match ups, but that's exactly what he's doing in his reasoning for Batman staying at street level.
This is getting pretty ridiculous. Batman's power output more than justifies his position in low meta.
And as Kris said earlier, Jubilee was just moved into the mid meta tier based on power output alone. If this was based on individual match ups rather than power, Jubs would probably be high street.
Originally posted by -Pr-
oh... see, i thought the one i posted in before had been shot down. my bad...cyclops to high meta, based on a) power output b) tactical genius on par with damn near anyone and accuracy that puts most people to shame, and c) some nice feats.
for people worried about his durability, he's been shot and smacked by sentinels and been fine.
All good.
Originally posted by batdude123
Btw, does anyone else besides me find that Digi's justification for why Batman doesn't belong in the low meta tier a little... I don't know... hypocritical?He's saying that the tiers aren't based on individual match ups, but that's exactly what he's doing in his reasoning for Batman staying at street level.
This is getting pretty ridiculous. Batman's power output more than justifies his position in low meta.
And as Kris said earlier, Jubilee was just moved into the mid meta tier based on power output alone. If this was based on individual match ups rather than power, Jubs would probably be high street.
Agreed.
Originally posted by -Pr-
oh... see, i thought the one i posted in before had been shot down. my bad...cyclops to high meta, based on a) power output b) tactical genius on par with damn near anyone and accuracy that puts most people to shame, and c) some nice feats.
for people worried about his durability, he's been shot and smacked by sentinels and been fine.
Agreed on high meta.