Originally posted by Creshosk
Well it does seem like the Wally discussion hasn't been going for a while.
Which is when I like to wrap things up and make a decision. No sense in rushing with this list.
Cyclops can be added to the being-discussed list, along with Batman and Omega Red. I'll move Wally shortly. Though I hope everyone that voted "for" knows that the'll have to be adding Barry to HH very, very soon. If you don't like Barry, it's kind of a cacth-22, because he's destined for Alpha-dog status among the Flashes.
Originally posted by Digi
Fair enough.I happily concede that intelligence plays a part in the rankings. But we don't consider prep, so it's worth is limited. Nearly everyone Batman shares a tier with currently has combat acumen and MA skill. So my point was only that it's a small consideration. Batman could range from street to Herald if we allowed prep, so it was necessary from a clarity standpoint to not consider it in the ranks. As such, I think he belongs where he is.
Now, more to the point, there isn't an exact demarcation between the tiers, so if you're looking for a point where they pass into "superhuman" to vote them up to LM, then you're reading the tiers incorrectly. The tier is not just "do you have a power?" because that would create an arbitrary line that wouldn't be an actual judge of total power. The tiers are defined by who is in them, not an arbitrary power line. Thus, my point was never that Batman doesn't have an occasional high-end feat that could be considered metahuman. He very well might. But my point was simply that he didn't belong with the others in low meta. You said yourself how it would be strange for Bats and Cap to keep such company, and that should be all the evidence you need to keep them where they are.
I also don't think such a divide exists that we need a new tier just for Batman and Cap. Are they really that much above their peers in a non-prep scenario? Black Panther? Hawkeye? Batgirl? Classic Kingpin? I could go on. These are characters that should be mentioned in the same breath, not as lessers.
I will be voting for some of them later also to be moved up one level.
Originally posted by Digi
Or put it this way, for another example (to go with my earlier one): Midnighter dump trucks Batman in a non-prep scenario. He does. He's Batman+, minus insane prep feats (though he has a few). He's what Batman would need to be in order to be low meta. Imo, at least.
I can sense that you don't read Batman that much?
Originally posted by The Nuul
I will be voting for some of them later also to be movie up one level.
Then there would really be no one left in High Street. And since there IS a clear difference between people like Cap, Hawkeye, Bats, etc. and those like Spidey, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Midnighter, etc. etc. then how do you justify them sharing the same tier? It's pretty ridiculous, imo. Low meta isn't "do you have superhuman powers" it's judged based off of those it the tier. And the low metas are far and away ahead of the high streets.
Originally posted by The Nuul
I can sense that you don't read Batman that much?
I read plenty of Batman. He's one of my favorite DC franchises. And he's not a low meta. Not without prep and with only his standard equipment, as he would be for this thread.
Originally posted by The Nuul
Screw this thread and its silly rules.
Now this makes me sense something else entirely. Take your votes seriously, back them up with legit reasoning, and don't spam the thread with trollish comments, or your voting rights will be revoked or worse.
Originally posted by Digi
Then there would really be no one left in High Street. And since there IS a clear difference between people like Cap, Hawkeye, Bats, etc. and those like Spidey, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Midnighter, etc. etc. then how do you justify them sharing the same tier? It's pretty ridiculous, imo. Low meta isn't "do you have superhuman powers" it's judged based off of those it the tier. And the low metas are far and away ahead of the high streets.I read plenty of Batman. He's one of my favorite DC franchises. And he's not a low meta. Not without prep and with only his standard equipment, as he would be for this thread.
Now this makes me sense something else entirely. Take your votes seriously, back them up with legit reasoning, and don't spam the thread with trollish comments, or your voting rights will be revoked or worse.
Its calls being on the low end of LM. Bats, Cap, DD, Hawkeye and some others make peak human athletes look like amatures. Bane who would destroy peak humans is at MS level. He should be low end LM.
Then why or how does Bats consistently beat LM characters without prep?
I am not trolling, The rules are just kinda messed up a bit IMO and I am sure some others can say the same.
Originally posted by The Nuul
I am not trolling, The rules are just kinda messed up a bit IMO and I am sure some others can say the same.
Which I can respect. However. The proper way to go about addressing such issues is bringing it up in conversation and working towards positive change. Not...
Originally posted by The Nuul
Screw this thread and its silly rules.
See the difference?
If you think something needs changed, talk to me about it. I promise I'll listen and try to gauge peoples' reactions, and see if something does indeed need changed. But don't undermine a thread by making votes simply to spite rules that you don't agree with.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Dude, don't argue with the mod about the rules in his thread, that he's gracious enough to allow us to have.
Also not helping. I have no problem with disagreements, and have changed or added many aspects of the forum because of member ingenuity and complaints. I only have problems when they are addressed in an immature manner.
Originally posted by The Nuul
Just because there are rules that doesn't mean I have to like them.
Again, I agree. But there are productive ways of getting them changed. Your approach was not one of them. You haven't even said what you disagree with specifically, nor have you offered an alternative. As such, there's no way we can engage in discussion that works towards an understanding.
Pm me with anything further. We're not going to spam the thread with this any longer.
Nuul Pm'd me, and there will likely be proposed updates to the list in coming weeks. And please note, some of his gripes were based on a misunderstanding about the tiers themselves. Discussing them openly in a respectful manner is always better than simply complaining, because a compromise, understanding, or change can usually be reached.
Page 1 will also be getting updated to disambiguate some of the rules.
Also, everyone, keep in mind that this is only intended as a rough gauge of power, for use in the vs. forum and for those new to comics. If you dislike something a lot, copy/paste it, change it to your liking, and make your own Word File tier list. Hell, I have one. That's what this is: a tool. Not to be 100% correct, which no tier list will ever be.