KMC Comic Book Tiers

Originally posted by darthgoober
Cap can pretty much match Batman feat for feat(arguably with some left over) and while he doesn't have the versatility of Batman's utility belt the offensive capabilities of his shield are WAAAY up there and grants him the same effectiveness against meta's that Bat has via gadgets. Bat's can take down meta's with gas or an exploding batarang, Cap can do the same with an effective shield bash/throw. If anything Cap would make the more sensible choice to move to the meta tier since he can do things like run nearly 60 MPH for extended stretches that are beyond the capabilities of even "peak humans".

That's not to say that Bat's doesn't deserve the bump(which is why I'm not voting against it), but if he gets it Cap definitely warrants a bump too.

Both Batman and Captain America are more effective in combat than Jubilee, a mid meta.

Again, this isn't based on individual match ups. It's based on power output, which Bats has the advantage in.

Plus, as Kris and Cresh have outlined, Batman's versatility with his gadgets allows him to be more efficient in certain situations.

HOWEVER, you'll get your chance for voting on Captain America as soon as this thread reopens.

Originally posted by batdude123
No, ya freakin guinea. uhuh

As for the other discussion, I've never wanted to debate Bats vs Cap. IMO, they're both too close in feats, skills, etc. If people start getting into a feats war debating them, the thread would explode by the sheer magnitude of all that awesomeness in one spot.

I do think both Bats and Cap have the feats for a bump up in the rankings but it will set a precedent that may cause us to rethink the rankings of characters such as Spidey and Wolvie.

I will drop my vote for or against Batman tomorrow.<if that's not to late :/>

Originally posted by batdude123
Both Batman and Captain America are more effective in combat than Jubilee, a mid meta.

Again, this isn't based on individual match ups. It's based on power output, which Bats has the advantage in.

Plus, as Kris and Cresh have outlined, Batman's versatility with his gadgets allows him to be more efficient in certain situations.

HOWEVER, you'll get your chance for voting on Captain America as soon as this thread reopens.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. It's either about power output or individual matchup's, you can't have it one way in one sentence and the other in the next.

Switching my vote on Batman. And no, I won't be voting for Cap or the others up. And yes, I realize I was an ardent "against" recently. He's a popular character, and I didn't want him getting gifted into low meta. He needed a strong devil's advocate to make him earn it. But the votes are stacking in favor of it now, and I am as well. I had to sell it fully or it wouldn't have been believed.

Cap's aura, if you will, is about respect, leadership, inspiration, etc. It's not a jobber aura per se, but a "you will follow me" aura. Batman's aura is fear, respect, and, yes, always having a plan. Batman's helps more in a vs. setting, imo. It's not even about status...I couldn't care less that they're both their company's flagship street characters.

They both have the skills, they both have situations where one might be better. But why is Batman better? Because it's part of who he is to have a plan, to be able to work through any given situation. On paper, is Cap better suited against Klaw? Sure. But in a situation where Bats has an easy out and Cap doesn't (Sandman maybe), I don't trust Cap to "find a way." I do with Batman. Combat knowledge won't always help Cap. "Everything" knowledge will always help Batman.

Stealth can't be overlooked either. Even with equal skill to Cap, remaining hidden is an asset against higher-up opponents. Bats undoubtedly does it better.

We can also probably safely count the Batmobile as standard, which helps. He can call it from nearly anywhere, or whatever other vehicle he has.

So why him and not Cap? In a nutshell: he's Batman. I loathe such a priori defenses most of the time, but he's maybe the only figure in comics where I feel it's an acceptable argument.

Originally posted by Digi
Switching my vote on Batman. And no, I won't be voting for Cap or the others up. And yes, I realize I was an ardent "against" recently. He's a popular character, and I didn't want him getting gifted into low meta. He needed a strong devil's advocate to make him earn it. But the votes are stacking in favor of it now, and I am as well. I had to sell it fully or it wouldn't have been believed.

Cap's aura, if you will, is about respect, leadership, inspiration, etc. It's not a jobber aura per se, but a "you will follow me" aura. Batman's aura is fear, respect, and, yes, always having a plan. Batman's helps more in a vs. setting, imo. It's not even about status...I couldn't care less that they're both their company's flagship street characters.

They both have the skills, they both have situations where one might be better. But why is Batman better? Because it's part of who he is to have a plan, to be able to work through any given situation. On paper, is Cap better suited against Klaw? Sure. But in a situation where Bats has an easy out and Cap doesn't (Sandman maybe), I don't trust Cap to "find a way." I do with Batman. Combat knowledge won't always help Cap. "Everything" knowledge will always help Batman.

Stealth can't be overlooked either. Even with equal skill to Cap, remaining hidden is an asset against higher-up opponents. Bats undoubtedly does it better.

We can also probably safely count the Batmobile as standard, which helps. He can call it from nearly anywhere, or whatever other vehicle he has.

So why him and not Cap? In a nutshell: he's Batman. I loathe such a priori defenses most of the time, but he's maybe the only figure in comics where I feel it's an acceptable argument.

Wait are the tiers about individual matchups or not? Either it matters that the character in question can beat Sandman or not, it can't be both ways. And if we take Batman's ability to find a way to use his environment to beat an opponent like Klaw, we have to credit guys like Cap with the same in regards to Sandman.

And I disagree in regards to the Batmobile. More than a few heroes call up their vehicle whenever it's necessary(like Moonknight or BRB) but no one figures they constitute standard equipment.

Against batman. I think if he gets bumped alot of others in his tier would have to follow.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
It might be better to bump some people down

I've got no problem with that.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And if Bat's was fighting someone like X-Ray from the U-foes or Klaw he'd probably be f*cked, while Cap could take either down with his shield.

Well, I'm sure that LEAD is pretty standard equipment, or available for someone like Batman. I'm fairly sure that he's got some kind of lead with him now that Mon-El has been around for a while. So I fail to see how Batman would be in trouble against X-Ray. And Klaw is still vulnerable to a lot of other forms of attacks, so I fail to see how Cap having his kryptonite means that Batman would be in trouble. It's just an example of how Cap's shield can work well against someone in very rare cases, not a testament to his versatility.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I've got no problem with that.

Hmm I agree with that, I'm starting to regret some of my previous votes. Taking into account that the purpose of the list to be used as a basic outline for creating threads in the verses forum against Batman moving up but willing to vote people down. 😬

Originally posted by Digi
Switching my vote on Batman. And no, I won't be voting for Cap or the others up. And yes, I realize I was an ardent "against" recently. He's a popular character, and I didn't want him getting gifted into low meta. He needed a strong devil's advocate to make him earn it. But the votes are stacking in favor of it now, and I am as well. I had to sell it fully or it wouldn't have been believed.

Cap's aura, if you will, is about respect, leadership, inspiration, etc. It's not a jobber aura per se, but a "you will follow me" aura. Batman's aura is fear, respect, and, yes, always having a plan. Batman's helps more in a vs. setting, imo. It's not even about status...I couldn't care less that they're both their company's flagship street characters.

They both have the skills, they both have situations where one might be better. But why is Batman better? Because it's part of who he is to have a plan, to be able to work through any given situation. On paper, is Cap better suited against Klaw? Sure. But in a situation where Bats has an easy out and Cap doesn't (Sandman maybe), I don't trust Cap to "find a way." I do with Batman. Combat knowledge won't always help Cap. "Everything" knowledge will always help Batman.

Stealth can't be overlooked either. Even with equal skill to Cap, remaining hidden is an asset against higher-up opponents. Bats undoubtedly does it better.

We can also probably safely count the Batmobile as standard, which helps. He can call it from nearly anywhere, or whatever other vehicle he has.

So why him and not Cap? In a nutshell: he's Batman. I loathe such a priori defenses most of the time, but he's maybe the only figure in comics where I feel it's an acceptable argument.

David Cain in High Street Level

Mr. Terrific in Low Metahuman

Thor Girl in Low Herald

Swamp Thing is above Herald level imho

Originally posted by Digi
So why him and not Cap? In a nutshell: he's Batman. I loathe such a priori defenses most of the time, but he's maybe the only figure in comics where I feel it's an acceptable argument.

I smell moral law.

The case has been made, alot of votes are in..when will the tally be finalized and when will the bump happen? Time for the Black Panther to be discussed really.

Originally posted by batdude123
Both Batman and Captain America are more effective in combat than Jubilee, a mid meta.

Again, this isn't based on individual match ups. It's based on power output, which Bats has the advantage in.

Plus, as Kris and Cresh have outlined, Batman's versatility with his gadgets allows him to be more efficient in certain situations.

HOWEVER, you'll get your chance for voting on Captain America as soon as this thread reopens.

The others can be discussed after the updates.

Originally posted by Digi

So why him and not Cap? In a nutshell: he's Batman. I loathe such a priori defenses most of the time, but he's maybe the only figure in comics where I feel it's an acceptable argument.

Originally posted by batdude123

Originally posted by darthgoober
What would you need to see from Cap to convince you that he his aura is just as effective as Batman's? I know he's not up for a vote yet, but I can use the threads downtime to find the necessary evidence.

Wait are the tiers about individual matchups or not? Either it matters that the character in question can beat Sandman or not, it can't be both ways. And if we take Batman's ability to find a way to use his environment to beat an opponent like Klaw, we have to credit guys like Cap with the same in regards to Sandman.

And I disagree in regards to the Batmobile. More than a few heroes call up their vehicle whenever it's necessary(like Moonknight or BRB) but no one figures they constitute standard equipment.

The whole "not individual matchups" thing has been taken way out of context from when I first created it. It was in response to early discussions in this thread where a person would be moved up or down because they'd beat a single person in their tier all the time or never. Tiers were much smaller, but it was still a frustrating way to make decisions, because we can find lots of individuals who would cause this trend. It's one of the things that's being changed in the thread when I update it.

In any case, we have no way of gauging a tier except by who is in that particular tier. So, by the very definition of that, the rankings are based on matchups.

However. My original gripe comes into play even today when people will cherry pick 2-3 low-end people from a tier to highlight why a person should be moved up. A few people earlier were doing this by saying "Batman beats Angel, so he should move up," or something similar. While true, it's not sound logic for moving him to a tier. But if we're talking about a majority of the tier, there's no problem with this. But being selective about proposing matchups is clearly a form of bias. So where is the distinction between how much of a tier is acceptable or unacceptable to reference? 33%? 20? 50? There isn't one, nor will one ever be mandated. The spirit of the rule, then, that picking only a few matchups shouldn't be enough, should be observed by all. But the rigid number of characters that constitutes "enough" is open for interpretation.

Hopefully that clears things up.

Originally posted by Creshosk
If we're going back that far I saw Digi made an against at the same time those two did..

7 for and 3 against.. that's still a greater than. 2-to-1 ratio for.

how much longer does the vote go on for?

seems people stop voting for or against omega red.

Originally posted by Digi
I don't get upset over this thread. Never have. Please don't try to imply a negative tone to my disagreement.

The upcoming changes have nothing to do with my opinion. Frankly, you don't even know what they're going to be, so why you would jump to this conclusion is beyond me. As it is, they're mainly to clarify a lot of issues that have been cropping up in the last few weeks.

Anyway, I explained earlier with the GG argument when I used it for the first time, my point wasn't to set them up 1-on-1, but to show you that an average member of the low meta group could easily be shown to be well above Batman. I'm aware of my own rules.

As it is, there's a healthy majority for bats. He's getting moved, barring something catastrophic. Doesn't mean I can't voice my dissent, however.

20 to 13 is a healthy majority? Especially with people changing their votes for 'some reason'

21-14 actually

Considering 35 people have voted, a lead of 7 hardly seems like a healthy majority.