Originally posted by Galan007From what I gathered:
So what's the score right now? Who needs to be added/moved?
Ka-Zar- MS
Conan- MS
Enchantress- LH
Crimson Dynamo- MM
Darkstar- MM
Wolverine- LM [as a starting point at least? he's tier-variant]
Ursa Major - HS
Sandman - HM
We need to clarify the environment, imo. Any word from Pr/Bada?
Wow I didn't even realize this thing was back up and running so I'm going to throw in my two cents even though it's a little late on the topic... it's absolutely ridiculous for Captain America to remain at low street. We're talking about someone who trounces metas far too consistently to be considered street level. Spidey, US Agent, Gambit, Warpath, Lady Deathstrike, Scorpion, Rhino, Wrecker, a Namor Clone, Hulk, and God only knows how many others have all fallen before Cap. And beyond the one's he's outright beaten you've got to look at the ones who're even more powerful that he's proven that he can hang with like Ironman. He's less "Batman with a shield" than he is a "light" version of Karate Kid. Now I understand Batman being bumped up due to the versatility of his gear, but while Cap's shield is less versatile, it's more uber and allows him to defend against most conventional attacks regardless of the power behind them as well as to actually hurt characters with a fair degree of invulnerability like Wonderman. Sure if I were entering a 2 character amalgam tourney restricted to street/low meta characters I can see how Bat's versatility might prove to be more useful, but if it were a low level character combined with a high level character... I think his shield would be more useful to Thor or Supes than Bat's standard gear. As far as feats go, it's been established on panel that he can actually see bullets flight, he's outraced bullets to their target, his combat speed has been said to rival Quicksilver by someone who'd just fought Quicksilver on the previous page(don't get me wrong it was Quicksilver way back in the early days of the Avengers), he's pulled a helicopter out of the sky, dragged an army supply truck with a broken axle(and I think flat tires, though I might be wrong about that part) that was loaded down with orphans for miles through the desert, sheared the tops off of tanks, and brought down an ICBM that had a decent head start with a shield throw. If versatility is the primary concern of the thread now then all talk of bumping Supes up to trans should be stop in favor of bumping up Surfer(and no, I don't think Supes or Surfer should get bumped up, I'm simply using it as an example). Ranking him at low meta shouldn't even be all that big of a question...
"He's less "Batman with a shield" than he is a "light" version of Karate Kid."
...
Jesus. We've all read Cap, we all know his feats, only we know better than to use "Cap has beaten Hulk!!!!" as a rational position. Otherwise Batman could be made a high-meta/low herald just with his physicals. He beat the goddamn Justice League just by going h2h. Callling him Bruce Wayne with a shield is accurate - and we both know you'd have a hard time proving he is much above, if at all, Bruce Wayne in pijamas in physicals.
On the forum, Cap is too limited, and vulnerable by being overly dependent on the shield, for which there's numerous precedent of it being dodged, deflected or removed - and there's no two ways about it. If "I throw my shield" fails, then he's basically "ummm....yeah". If Nightwing's [high]/Tim Drake's [mid!] goddamn utility belts, Green Arrow/Hawkeye's arrows, don't make them low meta, neither does Cap's shield. I don't want to move half the street tier up, just to accomodate Cap.
It seems this is a recurrent discussion, as we've already had it twice, and both times we disagreed on moving him. I'm not into going at it for a third time.
We'd vote...again...but this is like not being satisfied with "elections" and re-doing it until one gets the results he wants.
Meh.
----
So, I'll move on.
My next proposals:
Weather Wizard to high meta?
Mogo to high herald?
White Martians to mid herald?
Static to high meta?
Red Hulk [no energy absorbtion] to low-herald? Should we even put him on the list anymore?
Wiccan to low/mid herald?
I think I need to weigh in on this. Quite frankly I'm getting fed up with this. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks to me that how this tier is being run is kinda disgraceful and certain posters need to be chewed out in and put in their place.
This needs to be discussed because it seems a grwoing number oif posters don't like how this tier is being run and I maybe need to open another thread
Originally posted by Deadline
I think I need to weigh in on this. Quite frankly I'm getting fed up with this. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks to me that how this tier is being run is kinda disgraceful and certain posters need to be chewed out in and put in their place.This needs to be discussed because it seems a grwoing number oif posters don't like how this tier is being run and I maybe need to open another thread
dunno about the other voters, but galan and phil are two of the most knowledgables comic book fans out of any battle boards I've been to
the list been pretty impartial and extensive so far, obviously its not gonna make everyone happy
Originally posted by MrMind
dunno about the other voters, but galan and phil are two of the most knowledgables comic book fans out of any battle boards I've been to
Just because they know more doesnt mean that they're objective and can debate. But what it looks like to me is that certain posters get unofficially elected to be viewed with esteem when they don't really deserve it.
Originally posted by MrMind
the list been pretty impartial and extensive so far, obviously its not gonna make everyone happy
Certain posters is one problem but I think a bigger issue is how this thread is being run and I think it's being done badly. Maybe I'm wrong about that but I'll post later....hopefully.
Galan is just counting the votes. I think the issue is that one posters has decided to make versatility the factor between high streets and low metas. When it should be just a factor like stats, skills, etc. And then that distinction is being applied against Cap and not all others. Moreover Cap has a great defense against most of the versatility of hs and lm.
Some posters like me are just now paying attention to this thread and even now my interest is fading. But I certainly don't see a problem with more posters giving their opinions on it.
Cap is different than Ollie w/out arrows because his feats show meta stats, and he is way more skill in h2h. Plus he is a tactical genius in combat.
The starting distance here certainly gives projectile based characters an advantage, but that can be overcome. Otherwise any fodder with a rocket launcher would win if versatility was the only factor to consider with streets/low metas.
Originally posted by Philosophía
"He's less "Batman with a shield" than he is a "light" version of Karate Kid."...
Jesus. We've all read Cap, we all know his feats, only we know better than to use "Cap has beaten Hulk!!!!" as a rational position. Otherwise Batman could be made a high-meta/low herald just with his physicals. He beat the goddamn Justice League just by going h2h. Callling him Bruce Wayne with a shield is accurate - and we both know you'd have a hard time proving he is much above, if at all, Bruce Wayne in pijamas in physicals.
On the forum, Cap is too limited, and vulnerable by being overly dependent on the shield, for which there's numerous precedent of it being dodged, deflected or removed - and there's no two ways about it. If "I throw my shield" fails, then he's basically "ummm....yeah". If Nightwing's [high]/Tim Drake's [mid!] goddamn utility belts, Green Arrow/Hawkeye's arrows, don't make them low meta, neither does Cap's shield. I don't want to move half the street tier up, just to accomodate Cap.
It seems this is a recurrent discussion, as we've already had it twice, and both times we disagreed on moving him. I'm not into going at it for a third time.
We'd vote...again...but this is like not being satisfied with "elections" and re-doing it until one gets the results he wants.
Meh.
----
So, I'll move on.
My next proposals:
Weather Wizard to high meta?
Mogo to high herald?
White Martians to mid herald?
Static to high meta?
Red Hulk [no energy absorbtion] to low-herald? Should we even put him on the list anymore?
Wiccan to low/mid herald?
I didn't say we should go strictly off the Hulk showing, I simply pointed out to show his ability to KO goes damn near all the way up the scale. If he KO'd Hulk level guys on the regular, I wouldn't be saying that he's "light" version of Karate Kid(who's high meta I believe), I'd be saying that he's outright Karate Kid. I'm saying that he belongs at low meta because of his overall effectiveness, which it seems that the tier thread should really be about. Otherwise yes, Green Arrow, Nightwing, and Haweye SHOULD be bumbed up to low meta for their versatility, Karate Kid should be brought way down, and Supes and Gladiator should be in the same tier.
*Made the following changes to the list:
Ka-Zar- MS
Conan- MS
Enchantress- LH
Crimson Dynamo- MM
Darkstar- MM
Wolverine- LM [as a starting point at least? he's tier-variant]
Ursa Major - HS
Sandman - HM
**I'll PM Pr and Bada to clarify the battlefield locale soon.
Originally posted by DeadlineWhat are you talking about? I have literally been as objective and unbiased as it can possibly get in this thread. I follow whatever the consensus is, and make those changes accordingly. Nothing more, nothing less.
Just because they know more doesnt mean that they're objective and can debate.
Originally posted by Supermutant
Galan is just counting the votes.
One of my main issues isn't even what people's opinion on where certain characters lie or the defintions for ranking. If you're going to have a thread were you vote in where characters lie in a tier you need to give posters enough time to make their case. There was barely any discussion and it was shutdown, Pr was going to chime in and you chimed in later but we don't know what your opinion is because not enough time was given.
I don't feel that saying that the thread is being derailed is a logical explanation it seems pretty illogical to me. When you have votes it's normal human bahaviour to discuss your reason for voting and been given ample time. I can't really make this any clearer, discussion is normal but for some strange reason it isn't in this thread. One reason I think is maybe it can be hard for people building the tier to keep track, however I don't remember it being a problem in the martial arts hierachy thread, because you had to have the discussion. Anyway if that's the case then I suggested we open up a thread for discussing tiers.
Originally posted by Supermutant
I think the issue is that one posters has decided to make versatility the factor between high streets and low metas. When it should be just a factor like stats, skills, etc. And then that distinction is being applied against Cap and not all others. Moreover Cap has a great defense against most of the versatility of hs and lm.Some posters like me are just now paying attention to this thread and even now my interest is fading. But I certainly don't see a problem with more posters giving their opinions on it.
Cap is different than Ollie w/out arrows because his feats show meta stats, and he is way more skill in h2h. Plus he is a tactical genius in combat.
The starting distance here certainly gives projectile based characters an advantage, but that can be overcome. Otherwise any fodder with a rocket launcher would win if versatility was the only factor to consider with streets/low metas.
Thing is I don't think I actually disagree with this poster. Certain characters have certain gear which allows them versatility that other heroes don't. What certain posters don't seem to comprehend is that that doesn't neccesarily mean they are more effective. However what seems to be confusing is on one hand peoeple seem to be arguing that people are getting spots on the tier because there gear lets them win battles, and in some cases it's not even neccesarily the case they are just getting spots because they are versatile period. So another thing that needs to be done is that we need to clarify how we are going to define what is the criteria for this thread and discuss it.
Maybe post in here for discussions about this thread
Originally posted by Philosophía
We are ranking effectiveness - on the forum.That's why you see Flash at high-herald, instead of high-meta/low herald [as is his effectiveness in comic books]
You're confusing story with forum.
Then look at his perceived effectiveness on the forum where's it pretty much readily acknowledged that he's actually a superhuman who takes the W over plenty of metas. Not by using sonics, gas, or other tricks like Bat's, but just by strait up out fighting them the way he does in the comics. Going by combat showings, Cap's meta. Going by feats, Cap is meta. On the forum, Cap is meta. If you don't believe me, start a poll thread in the vs forum about it.
I mean if you're flatly refusing to change your mind fine, you're one. Who are the other "super voters" aside from you and leo, I'll see if I can convince them.
Originally posted by darthgooberHe is not.
Then look at his perceived effectiveness on the forum where's it pretty much readily acknowledged that he's actually a superhuman who takes the W over plenty of metas. Not by using sonics, gas, or other tricks like Bat's, but just by strait up out fighting them the way he does in the comics. Going by combat showings, Cap's meta. Going by feats, Cap is meta. On the forum, Cap is meta. If you don't believe me, start a poll thread in the vs forum about it.
I understand your frustration, given how much you love Cap, but repeating yourself, trying to appeal to the imaginary majority [which is a logical fallacy, that somebody your years on forums should not fall into], using PIS [Cap beat Hulk!] then making dramatic statements is not an actual argument.
Steve Rogers is very comparable in strength, speed and durability to Batman without his tech. His shield, being uni-dimensional and easily countered, isn't enough to put him into the low-meta tier, not when we have people with insane tech [Nightwing/Tim Drake], insane range and tech [Green Arrow/Hawkeye], insane combat capability and tech [Batgirl], and people with insane physical capability [Bane/Kingpin, the latter already having humiliated Cap fiercely] all sitting comfortably at high-street.
If you want, not to derail this thread [too late already], we can have a debate, on the 'physical gap' between Batman [without his gadgets] and Steve, in a battlezone. I mean, Cap is a 'light Karate Kid' and not Batman, no? Cap 'takes metas down without tricks unlike Batman'? No.
Let's see you show that gap and stop crying all over this thread. Cap is just one of hundreds of characters here.
Nobody will ever stop you, or anybody here, from putting Cap against whomever you want, from any tier. These are not "you can only make match-ups from these sub-tier, or else". What's with these bleeding hearts? Geez.
At least, that way, the rest can actually move over the other characters.
----
@Galan, leo, and the rest
My next proposals:
Weather Wizard to high meta?
Mogo to high herald?
White Martians to mid herald?
Static to high meta?
Red Hulk [no energy absorbtion] to low-herald? Should we even put him on the list anymore?
Wiccan to low/mid herald?
Nobody will ever stop you, or anybody here, from putting Cap against whomever you want, from any tier. These are not "you can only make match-ups from these sub-tier, or else".
i think this is the most important bit in the recent dialogue. i think the reason we haven't gotten bogged down is because--and let's say it altogether--THE THREAD ISN'T PERFECT. nor is it intended to be. i've said i think cap should be lm. the others voted and he's not. being a single level below where you feel he should be is, by definition, NOT AN EGREGIOUS ERROR. the idea behind revamping this was to correct egregious errors. to that end, i think we've done a pretty good job.
whether cap is in meta or street has ZERO relevance on the way people will perceive cap, or treat cap in vs matches. so ask yourself--what impact does moving or leaving him have on....anything?
answer: none. THAT's why i can move on despite the fact that more than one of my suggestions has been overruled by the group. if cap were mid street, you might have a complaint. one level? just not seeing it as a hill to die on.
Weather Wizard to high meta?
Mogo to high herald?
White Martians to mid herald?
Static to high meta?
Red Hulk [no energy absorbtion] to low-herald? Should we even put him on the list anymore?
Wiccan to low/mid herald?
i can get behind most of these. mid herald seems high for wiccan though. feats in mind for that?
red hulk should be in imo but not sure he should be above guys like simon and abomination in high meta....
thinking on it, should all white martians be automatically in the same tier as jonn? maybe lh would be better, with specific versions listed separately? i mean if we say mh, does that mean we have to bump mgann to mh just because she's a white martian?
Originally posted by leonidas👆
i think this is the most important bit in the recent dialogue. i think the reason we haven't gotten bogged down is because--and let's say it altogether--THE THREAD ISN'T PERFECT. nor is it intended to be. i've said i think cap should be lm. the others voted and he's not. being a single level below where you feel he should be is, by definition, NOT AN EGREGIOUS ERROR. the idea behind revamping this was to correct egregious errors. to that end, i think we've done a pretty good job.whether cap is in meta or street has ZERO relevance on the way people will perceive cap, or treat cap in vs matches. so ask yourself--what impact does moving or leaving him have on....anything?
answer: none. THAT's why i can move on despite the fact that more than one of my suggestions has been overruled by the group. if cap were mid street, you might have a complaint. one level? just not seeing it as a hill to die on.
At this point, I'd be ok to move him just to get people to shut up, Jesus Christ.
It's like we're treating this as a straight from comic book canon "official list". It's just a guideline...
Anyway...
Originally posted by leonidasMagneto stated that Wiccan is more powerful than him in Children's Crusade [but he also stated that Doom is so meh!], and in the same series he held his own against Doom. He has some nifty versatility spells, shields, teleportation, stuff like that. I'm ok with both low/mid. He's kind of a bootleg Zatanna.
i can get behind most of these. mid herald seems high for wiccan though. feats in mind for that?red hulk should be in imo but not sure he should be above guys like simon and abomination in high meta....
thinking on it, should all white martians be automatically in the same tier as jonn? maybe lh would be better, with specific versions listed separately? i mean if we say mh, does that mean we have to bump mgann to mh just because she's a white martian?
Red Hulk did pretty good against Avengers [Sentry included] and gave the impression that he's a bit higher than high-meta, imo. I'll try to find some scans.
I think the White Martians have the feats [speed/strength/tp/shapeshifting etc.] to say they'd be mid-meta. It's weird having them with J'onn there...but it's also weird having them that far low, considering their ridiculousness. You've got a point about 'generic ones', I was thinking the original JLA ones [both first arc and Terror Incognita].
Originally posted by Philosophía
He is not.I understand your frustration, given how much you love Cap, but repeating yourself, trying to appeal to the imaginary majority [which is a logical fallacy, that somebody your years on forums should not fall into], using PIS [Cap beat Hulk!] then making dramatic statements is not an actual argument.
Steve Rogers is very comparable in strength, speed and durability to Batman without his tech. His shield, being uni-dimensional and easily countered, isn't enough to put him into the low-meta tier, not when we have people with insane tech [Nightwing/Tim Drake], insane range and tech [Green Arrow/Hawkeye], insane combat capability and tech [Batgirl], and people with insane physical capability [Bane/Kingpin, the latter already having humiliated Cap fiercely] all sitting comfortably at high-street.
If you want, not to derail this thread [too late already], we can have a debate, on the 'physical gap' between Batman [without his gadgets] and Steve, in a battlezone. I mean, Cap is a 'light Karate Kid' and not Batman, no? Cap 'takes metas down without tricks unlike Batman'? No.
Let's see you show that gap and stop crying all over this thread. Cap is just one of hundreds of characters here.
Nobody will ever stop you, or anybody here, from putting Cap against whomever you want, from any tier. These are not "you can only make match-ups from these sub-tier, or else". What's with these bleeding hearts? Geez.
At least, that way, the rest can actually move over the other characters.
----
@Galan, leo, and the rest
My next proposals:
Weather Wizard to high meta?
Mogo to high herald?
White Martians to mid herald?
Static to high meta?
Red Hulk [no energy absorbtion] to low-herald? Should we even put him on the list anymore?
Wiccan to low/mid herald?
And he's got better combat feats than the whole damn high street tier. You keep harping cause I guess your mad that Cap KO'd Hulk, but I listed a lot more than just Hulk in regards to the metas Cap's taken down.
And again, you and I don't have to argue this anymore. Unless I'm mistaken leo is ok with Cap moving up, that's why I asked who the other super voters are. Obviously no feat Cap ever pulls off will convince you that he's more than High Street that you won't lable as PIS so feel free to vote no and say that nothing can possibly change your mind, but I'd like a chance to talk to them about it.