9/11

*raises hand* 3 buildings fell "from a fire" that day.

Originally posted by The big EH
in about 1 minute all of the americans on this website is going to hate me, and think i'm a total *******, which i'm not i actually know someone who's dad had to clean up the towers, and that brought him to retiring.

9/11
i know it was a terrible thing that happenned to america, the people died and everything, but america really needs to move on and accept it as past history like they did with Pearl Harbor, WW2, and WW1, all very horridable times, all milatary movements, and i think like PH, 9/11 was a milatary movement aswell, or just an act the government put up to use fear to help rule. anyway it is pretty much the only foriegn attack on america besides PH, and it's such a huge deal, it's like a city was taken out. in 6 years there as been 3 movies, almost as if somebody doesn't want anybody toforget those horridable moments, while PH has only had 2 or 3 movies in over 50 years. so what i wanna know why is 9/11 such a huge deal, so many things go on in europe everyday, you don't see them complaining and making movies about everysingle attack. and really casting nick cage in 9/11 is just awful he's a crapptacular actor, he prettymuch ruined skullrider (that and the storyline was extremely simple) and United 93 is a completly awful movie, trying to make a uge 2 and a half hour movie that lasted less time than that was crappy

sad really, millions die in africa, thousands massacred in palestine, over 2.5% of the population exterminated in iraq, hundrerds of thousands raped and murdered in kashmir, billions livin in worse than hell situations{children included} in south american islands/nations and world over and all we can think of are the victims of september eleventh. im not implying they should be forgotten/hated. as individuals who knew them, they should be remembered{just like all the other more pained ones who are forgotten} but as an ISSUE and PUBLIC discussion point, it should be abandoned as its been corrupted beyond repair because of its{actually minor historic significance} use in rationalisations to wipe out significant part of nations people and livelehoods. its worth NOTHING compared to them. on top of the fact that it has never been proven to be done by alqaeeda{no matter how much the media makes it seem so, there is no formal evidence or admittance} and the fact that it has, to all unbiased engineers and people who know even highschool physics{and have seen the recordings of what happened and pointed to the parts that matter} been almost proven to be an inside job as the buildings did not collapse from the impact of the planes{theres no evidence of a plane near the pentagon, NONE, no parts no debree not even vapourized metal colled deposits, and atleast one of the planes striking the twin towers was probably not civilian} and {also unconfirmed reports of there being absolutely no jews on a normal day in a large place with atleast a significant amount of jewish employees and businessmen}. whatever it was, it should at BEST be forgotten socially{not by the individuals concerned}. as the american nation's actions have disgraced the innocent victims to the extent. i lost sum people close to me there, and have close friends whove lost family{medics n such} in iraq, but it is the duty of even the victim's loved ones to not hype the social/political part of it anymore, inn respect for those who have died.

{btw im not a conspiracy theorist at all. im a sceptic who looks at the evidence and if u think what im saying is idiotic/far fetched/lack of facts, search some places online or some RESPECTABLE news channels not affiliated to the west like aljazeera/geo n lotsa other ones, ull see what im talkin about, stories were run on this for weeks and not for political gain or brainwashing{as those do exist, but this wasnt the same thing} im also an agnostic who is at best against islam/christianity etc, and am not anti jewish specifically, take that into account before making up your mind about what ive said.

the reason these stories are being hyped, recirculated and movies being made about it{for the most part} is for political gain, trying to keep the public scared and supporting the illegal/criminally corrupt bush administration, whose equal can perhaps not be found anywhere but in the third reich as far as the overall harm and willingness to decieve, hurt and take advantage of people you dont see as necessary goes{albeit, this one is far better at hiding its true face from the world}.

Originally posted by Firefighterchik
I'll tell you what I think and you can think what you want of me!
But I almost lost a cousin in the Twin Towers but thankfully I didn't.But I believe that sometimes there's something called going to far!
Right on the corner of My street there's a store that has been vandalized over and over again and Stolen from!People start to believe that all people with wraps on their heads are all Terrorist's!Well thats not true and some people need to remember that.And I think that everyone us and them are wrong!
They judge us by the way we look and act and we think their wrong but here we turn around a do the same thing!WTF!!!
So I told you think what you want of me!But I put my 2 sense in.
And I'm sorry if offend anyone.

Originally posted by Schecter
im not trying to offend you or put you in a defensive stance, but that's a really stupid thing to say. everything is relative and to imply that it wasnt "actual devestation"....maybe you just worded it wrong and didnt mean to suggest that?

Originally posted by Devil King
9/11 was a terrible day. No one is arguing that. But, the hard part to swallow is just how hard it has remained in our memory. It's often called a day that changed everything. [b]That simply is not true. It changed a lot, but it changed not one damn thing that really matters. President Bush told us to go out and shop, to maintain our way of life. Well, if you want to talk about a squandered opprotunity, one need look no further. We were told to go shopping, keep travelling, go to work, eat fast food, etc. The citizens of this country were willing to do damn near anything in the months after 9/11, and we didn't do anything. We weren't asked to do a damn thing.

Pearle Harbor was 1000X more influential than 9/11 will ever be. In the days, weeks and months that followed the bombings, Americans were asked to change their lives, pool their resources, help each other adjust.

I think it's a crime for this administration, for this government, to treat it like so much political propoganda. It changed everything when it needs to have changed everything. It changed everything when you go to pack for a plane ride, but that's just so much window dressing to give the illusion of safety and compotency. Otherwise, 9/11 only changed our spending habits. Now, we go to movies about that day and we buy collectors coins that commemorate it. "WE WILL NEVER FORGET" is a nice slogan, but it should be followed with "BUT WE HARDLY REMEMBER EITHER!" [/B]

Look, I feel sorry for everybody who died in 9/11, and all the families affected by it. And I'm not saying America had it coming - nobody deserves that.

But...

Nobody, apart from a few journalists who are labeled as biased and 'unobjective', have really pursued the question of WHY people were driven so far over the edge that they felt willing to not only attack America, but also sacrifice their own lives in the process.

Instead, everybody - following Bush's lead - focused on vengeance and retaliation: A war on terrorism was declared.

You know that another word for terrorist is 'freedom fighter'?

So, let me pose this question: What, in your opinion, did America do to antagonise people to such an extent that they felt the need to plan an operation, do the training, infiltrate America, hijack the planes and fly them into the Towers, taking thousands of lives (including their own) in the process?

Might America's foreign policies have something to do with it?

Or are you trying to convince yourselves that these were the random acts of a few madmen?

Here are some 'random' facts, that I have been pondering:

Quotes from Bill Hicks, long before 9/11:

---"I'm so sick of arming the world, then sending troops over to destroy the ****ing arms, you know what I mean? We keep arming these little countries, then we go and blow the shit out of them. We're like the bullies of the world, y'know. We're like Jack Palance in the movie Shane, throwing the pistol at the sheepherder's feet.
”Pick it up."
"I don't wanna pick it up, Mister, you'll shoot me."
"Pick up the gun."
"Mister, I don't want no trouble. I just came downtown here to get some hard rock candy for my kids, some gingham for my wife. I don't even know what gingham is, but she goes through about ten rolls a week of that stuff. I ain't looking for no trouble, Mister."
"Pick up the gun."
(He picks it up. Three shots ring out.)
"You all saw him - he had a gun."

---Banned MTV 9/11 Ads

http://www.ad-titude.com/comments.php?postid=183

---"It is a grim reality that every year over 18 000 South Africans are murdered and 50 000 are raped."

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/&articleid=299225

So, like I said, I feel sorry for the losses Americans suffered on 9/11, and absolutely nobody deserves that.

But...

Though I am not very fond of quoting the Bible, in this case one of the verses seem somewhat appropriate: Something about removing the splinter from your own eye before pointing out the beam in another's.

In summary, and in conclusion, my suggestion is this: America needs to change its foreign policy - otherwise this is going to happen again. And again. And again.

If a country has made it clear that America's presence is not welcome - then LEAVE! Otherwise, and as a South African I speak from personal experience - you are forcing people into a position where they have absolutely nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by picking up arms in an attempt to gain what they perceive as freedom.

America always used to stand for the pursuit of freedom, liberty and justice. Now, I am sorry to say, America is being perceived more and more as an international bully...

Originally posted by Schecter
i live in jersey, so 9/11 isnt some trend here. you dont have to look far to meet people who had lost someone then. in the face of world tragedy its not much at all, yet the shock and horror of it all is what amplified that tragedy.

PH was a military operation, and a sound one. 9/11 was the murder of 3000+ people, which was superficial to their plans. the real plan was an attempt to cripple our economy through fear. worked like a charm, since through fear we allow bush to cripple our economy for years to come. so while some will kneejerk and say it was simply terrorism and murder, i guess it can be argued that it was a military operation in the sense that it's sole intention was to cripple the nation, as opposed to just doing it to terrorise for the sake of making some point, or just killing people for the hell of it.

You all know that war makes the economy go UP, right?

Originally posted by The big EH
in about 1 minute all of the americans on this website is going to hate me, and think i'm a total *******, which i'm not i actually know someone who's dad had to clean up the towers, and that brought him to retiring.

9/11
i know it was a terrible thing that happenned to america, the people died and everything, but america really needs to move on and accept it as past history like they did with Pearl Harbor, WW2, and WW1, all very horridable times, all milatary movements, and i think like PH, 9/11 was a milatary movement aswell, or just an act the government put up to use fear to help rule. anyway it is pretty much the only foriegn attack on america besides PH, and it's such a huge deal, it's like a city was taken out. in 6 years there as been 3 movies, almost as if somebody doesn't want anybody toforget those horridable moments, while PH has only had 2 or 3 movies in over 50 years. so what i wanna know why is 9/11 such a huge deal, so many things go on in europe everyday, you don't see them complaining and making movies about everysingle attack. and really casting nick cage in 9/11 is just awful he's a crapptacular actor, he prettymuch ruined skullrider (that and the storyline was extremely simple) and United 93 is a completly awful movie, trying to make a uge 2 and a half hour movie that lasted less time than that was crappy

And Nickolas Cage is a good actor when he wants to be. He was pretty good in Lord of War.

Originally posted by Dreampanther

But...

Nobody, apart from a few journalists who are labeled as biased and 'unobjective', have really pursued the question of WHY people were driven so far over the edge that they felt willing to not only attack America, but also sacrifice their own lives in the process.

Instead, everybody - following Bush's lead - focused on vengeance and retaliation: A war on terrorism was declared

we wanted al qaeda brought to justice. take someone who has nothing to live for and offer them their families salvation, and you can get them to 'sacrifice' anything. you seem to think that the very notion that they would commit a suicide attack directly justifies their actions (or at least makes them sympathetic and in turn the u.s. and victims of 9/11 just asking for it). i find this to be completely presumptuous horseshit. sorry 😬

No one is saying that the PEOPLE deserved to die...but America was very ignorant of what was giong on in the world.

Originally posted by Alliance
No one is saying that the PEOPLE deserved to die...but America was very ignorant of what was giong on in the world.

nor did i say that he implied that they deserved it.
his implication is clearly along the lines 'the idiots were asking for it'.

thanks btw for continuing to refer to 'america' as this solid entity of ignorance, all sharing the same views and opinions. gotta keep that myth going that america consists of 99.999999% idiots and .000001% smart people who are really canadians in disguise 🙄

Originally posted by Schecter
we wanted al qaeda brought to justice. take someone who has nothing to live for and offer them their families salvation, and you can get them to 'sacrifice' anything. you seem to think that the very notion that they would commit a suicide attack directly justifies their actions (or at least makes them sympathetic and in turn the u.s. and victims of 9/11 just asking for it). i find this to be completely presumptuous horseshit. sorry 😬

My questions remain:

What, in your opinion, did America do to antagonise people to such an extent that they felt the need to plan an operation, do the training, infiltrate America, hijack the planes and fly them into the Towers, taking thousands of lives (including their own) in the process?

Might America's foreign policies have something to do with it?

Or are you trying to convince yourselves that these were the random acts of a few madmen?

Well...just kind of running throught the Reagan foreign policy ALONE should be sufficient.

Nothing as poetic as 9-11 could be termed "random:

Originally posted by Dreampanther
My questions remain:

What, in your opinion, did America do to antagonise people to such an extent that they felt the need to plan an operation, do the training, infiltrate America, hijack the planes and fly them into the Towers, taking thousands of lives (including their own) in the process?

Might America's foreign policies have something to do with it?

Or are you trying to convince yourselves that these were the random acts of a few madmen?

so let me get this straight. any intervention by america, corrupt of otherwise, justifies any and all attacks on u.s. citizens? so i guess once those planes hit the towers, by your logic, america was instantly justified in attacking any islamic militants they deemed a threat? seems that way. maybe 9/11, the u.s. occupations in the middle east, or whatever bloodbaths occur in the future, are NOT justified? or do you just want to run to the side of whomever strikes the u.s. with sympathy and understanding, while withholding the same evolved sensability from the other side? seems that way.

and please please ffs PLEASE, dont try that strawman nonsense about "random acts" as i never said that. you want to debate me or bush's neocon talking points? let me know so i dont end up wasting my time

Originally posted by Schecter
so let me get this straight. any intervention by america, corrupt of otherwise, justifies any and all attacks on u.s. citizens? so i guess once those planes hit the towers, by your logic, america was instantly justified in attacking any islamic militants they deemed a threat? seems that way. maybe 9/11, the u.s. occupations in the middle east, or whatever bloodbaths occur in the future, are NOT justified? or do you just want to run to the side of whomever strikes the u.s. with sympathy and understanding, while withholding the same evolved sensability from the other side? seems that way. and no, dont try that strawman nonsense about "random acts" as i never said that. you want to debate me or bush's neocon talking points? let me know so i dont end up wasting my time

Umm, deliberately misinterpreting what I say and twisting my statements seem to be unhelpful, to say the least.

I started my statement by saying: "Look, I feel sorry for everybody who died in 9/11, and all the families affected by it. And I'm not saying America had it coming - nobody deserves that."

Then I asked whether you think that perhaps America's foreign policies might have done something to antagonise people from a much weaker country so much that they felt the need to plan and execute such a horrific act, against a much stronger country - or whether you believe the attacks to be completely unprovoked.

Then you went on a rant, and you seem to be a bit over-defensive, to say the least.

Now, since we are talking about "u.s. occupations in the middle east", let me ask you another question: Do you think the Middle East will continue these kind of attacks if America withdraws from there, where it is clearly unwelcome?

Or do you think that America should continue to tell the Middle East what to do, and how to do it, and furthermore label everybody who responds negatively to this kind of interference as dissenters and potential terrorists?

Or, to put it another way: How would you react if armed troops pulled into your country, and told you your beliefs are wrong, your society is wrong, your religion is wrong, your government is wrong - and they used superior force of arms to lay down the law - THEIR LAW.

And you ask them to leave, you tell them America is YOUR country, not theirs, and that if they do not like the way you live they should go back to their country? And they refuse, and use military force to attempt to make you conform to their way of life?

Do you think, after a while, you might be tempted to do something desperate as well?

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Umm, deliberately misinterpreting what I say and twisting my statements seem to be unhelpful, to say the least.

oh i did? shame on me. my appologies in advance. with that said, let's see here:

Originally posted by Dreampanther
I started my statement by saying: "Look, I feel sorry for everybody who died in 9/11, and all the families affected by it. And I'm not saying America had it coming - nobody deserves that."

ok, so america didnt have it coming and was not asking for it. therefore the attackers were coldblooded murderers, correct? they made a conscious decision to murder people who clearly did not invite the situation. wonderful. agreed. approved. gold star.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Then I asked whether you think that perhaps America's foreign policies might have done something to antagonise people from a much weaker country so much that they felt the need to plan and execute such a horrific act, against a much stronger country - or whether you believe the attacks to be completely unprovoked.

the foreign policy of the executive branch for the past half-century toward the middle east has been disgustinly exploitative, reckless, and downright criminal. agreed. no, i dont feel the attacks were unprovoked, just as i feel the current wars were not unprovoked. what is unfortunate is when those who do not provoke suffer in place of those who do. moving along

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Then you went on a rant, and you seem to be a bit over-defensive, to say the least.

try having to validate your intelligence to countless people who just hate everyone from your country and call them (and you) ignorant and retarded, and im sure you'll develope the same knee-jerk reflex.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Now, since we are talking about "u.s. occupations in the middle east", let me ask you another question: Do you think the Middle East will continue these kind of attacks if America withdraws from there, where it is clearly unwelcome?

yes. i do believe it will happen. you have to understand that this isnt one nation versus another. this is a battle of opportunistic powers which are fueled by violence and fear. bin laden, insurgent leaders, and king dubya's power and influence are DIRECTLY proportional to the level of fear and irrationality among their citizens. all sides know this and exploit it. and make no mistake. al qaeda leaders are nothing more than fetal versions of brutal dictators, as we saw their will practiced in afghanistan. fear is their enabler, power is their obsession, and whoever they (u.s. or al qaeda) dupe into dying for this farse is inconscequential to the overall point: its all bullshit. bush doesnt shed a tear for our troops and al qaeda leaders dont give a rats ass about the people they claim to defend. its all about gaining power and keeping people in a constant state of fear.

so yes, imho if the u.s. pulled out of the middle east, middle easterners would dance in the streets and a temporary utopia would ensue...except for in a some remote area of pakistan/afghanistan where a powerless al qauda/whoever would plan their next attack. make no mistake, this is mutually beneficial for all those in power, and universally damning to those who live under that power. im not implying that they are coordinated, but rather there is no genuine want for peace.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Or do you think that America should continue to tell the Middle East what to do, and how to do it, and furthermore label everybody who responds negatively to this kind of interference as dissenters and potential terrorists?

i think we need to find practical means of pushing alternate fuels and rendering the entire middle east irrelevant to our needs. however that will especially never happen so long as texas oil billionares hold such power. do i think its wrong that our military is permanently committed in the middle east? absolutely.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Or, to put it another way: How would you react if armed troops pulled into your country, and told you your beliefs are wrong, your society is wrong, your religion is wrong, your government is wrong - and they used superior force of arms to lay down the law - THEIR LAW.

i really didnt need that to understand, and also its not relevant and completly dramatised into falsehood. america is not dictating law or damning any religion. all our government really did in iraq was kill of a dictator which they helped put in power, and are now keeping the largest cities on lockdown indefinately (all pointless, i know)

Originally posted by Dreampanther
And you ask them to leave, you tell them America is YOUR country, not theirs, and that if they do not like the way you live they should go back to their country? And they refuse, and use military force to attempt to make you conform to their way of life?

Do you think, after a while, you might be tempted to do something desperate as well?

all this talk of iraq...whats this have to do with 9/11?

Originally posted by Schecter

all this talk of iraq...whats this have to do with 9/11?

NAIL ON THE ****ING HEAD

Originally posted by ~Pielover~
I find it humorous that people thin Bush crippled the economy, when he really did the best thing he could ever do for it.

You all know that war makes the economy go UP, right?

You do not have any clue how the economy works do you?

Originally posted by Dreampanther
My questions remain:

What, in your opinion, did America do to antagonise people to such an extent that they felt the need to plan an operation, do the training, infiltrate America, hijack the planes and fly them into the Towers, taking thousands of lives (including their own) in the process?

That's not what happened. I'll let someone else explain it.