All I am saying is that, in my opinion, this isn't as big a "theme" as it is in Christianity. In Christianity, such a focus is made of the fact that people did not choose God but God chose them. While I'm sure other religions address this, it's not a major focal point. At least not in the experiences of people I know of different religions. It is a unique factor of Christianity in that God actually became a human for a while. I fail to see how debating extent of focus is a contradiction.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
All I am saying is that, in my opinion, this isn't as big a "theme" as it is in Christianity. In Christianity, such a focus is made of the fact that people did not choose God but God chose them. While I'm sure other religions address this, it's not a major focal point. At least not in the experiences of people I know of different religions. It is a unique factor of Christianity in that God actually became a human for a while. I fail to see how debating extent of focus is a contradiction.
If God becoming human = God wants to be close to people. I'm fairly certain that Hinduism has Christianity beat in that aspect. I believe God has taken many human froms (avatars) throughout the Hindu faith.
Maybe you should convert, as it seems this is a focal point of you, religion and God.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[b]Surah 4:171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.Surah 6:101 The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort, when He created all things and is Aware of all things ?
Surah 18:4,5 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son, (A thing) whereof they have no knowledge, nor (had) their fathers, Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.
Surah 23:91 Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.
Unlike YHWH--the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob i.e. the God of the Bible--Allah does not have a son. In fact, Allah has no children. The God of the Bible (i.e. YHWH) desires to make all people His children by adoption through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Therefore, based on these Qu'ranic references it is clear that Allah does not seek to know his creation on a personal level (he doesn't even have a son). Again, the God of the Bible (YHWH) has a Son, but Allah does not.
2 Corinthians 6:17-18
17 Therefore
Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “ I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty.”John 1:12
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:Romans 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [/B]
None of that answered my question: Where did God in the Koran say that he does not seek to know his creation on a personal level?
You made that assertion, now I want you to show me the verse in the Koran that says so.
Originally posted by Devil King
You don't think maybe your opinion might be a little biased since you subscribe to one of the religions in question?
We should remember that next time homosexuality comes up for debate...
Originally posted by willofthewisp
All I am saying is that, in my opinion, this isn't as big a "theme" as it is in Christianity. In Christianity, such a focus is made of the fact that people did not choose God but God chose them. While I'm sure other religions address this, it's not a major focal point. At least not in the experiences of people I know of different religions. It is a unique factor of Christianity in that God actually became a human for a while. I fail to see how debating extent of focus is a contradiction.
Have you ever looked into it? Or are you just relying on what Pastor Chuck tells you?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
We should remember that next time homosexuality comes up for debate...Have you ever looked into it? Or are you just relying on what Pastor Chuck tells you?
Why wouldn't you consider me biased when it comes to homosexuality? I hope you didn't think that was a "gotcha" moment or something.
Have you ever looked into it? Or are you just relying on what the Pope tells you?
Originally posted by Devil King
Why wouldn't you consider me biased when it comes to homosexuality? I hope you didn't think that was a "gotcha" moment or something.
Not at all, just hoping you could be objective...
Originally posted by Devil King
Have you ever looked into it? Or are you just relying on what the Pope tells you?
I have never looked into it, and am thus not commenting on it...
I hope you don't think that was a "gotcha" moment...
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
None of that answered my question: Where did God in the Koran say that he does not seek to know his creation on a personal level?You made that assertion, now I want you to show me the verse in the Koran that says so.
There are many things in both the Bible and Qu'ran that are inferred, but not stated verbatim. This is one such example. Another example is the Trinity. There is no verse that states, God is a Trinity, or that God is a Triune Being, but there are plenty Scriptures that support this doctrine, albeit without stating this letter for letter. Furthermore, there is no word for word verse that states that God desires for people to practice good hygiene, but it can be inferred from other passages in the Bible that we should use wisdom. It is wise to maintain proper hygiene for a variety of health reasons, but the actual chapter and verse for it does not exist.
Do you follow me Quiero Mota?
I was simply inferring that Allah does not seek to know his creation on a personal level because he is purported to be transcendent, has no essence, and no children, (i.e. he is not a father).
Now, have you ever heard of the Law of noncontradiction?
Originally posted by Robtard
JIA,What you still fail to realize, Islam worships the same god, ie The God of Abraham. It seems they believe God never split himself into three parts for whatever reasons you believe and that God is simply God.
But I beg to differ. I have shown you time and time again with Scriptures from the Bible and Surahs from the Qur'an that your views are untenable, contradictory, and just plain false.
Have you ever heard of or are you familiar with the Law of noncontradiction?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There are many things in both the Bible and Qu'ran that are inferred, but not stated verbatim. This is one such example. Another example is the Trinity. There is no verse that states, God is a Trinity, or that God is a Triune Being, but there are plenty Scriptures that support this doctrine, albeit without stating this letter for letter. Furthermore, there is no word for word verse that states that God desires for people to practice good hygiene, but it can be inferred from other passages in the Bible that we should use wisdom. It is wise to maintain proper hygiene for a variety of health reasons, but the actual chapter and verse for it does not exist.Do you follow me Quiero Mota?
I was simply inferring that Allah does not seek to know his creation on a personal level because he is purported to be transcendent, has no essence, and no children, (i.e. he is not a father).
Now, have you ever heard of the Law of noncontradiction?
I follow you perfectly, and you're wrong. Nothing can be inferred from the Koran, because its to be taken literally. If it's not explicitly stated, then it isn't. So you're inference is wrong from the beginning, because it's inapplicable.
The Koran repeatedly asserts that God is "all-knowing", "fully aware" and "knows the secrets of the heart". None of those are metaphors. What do you think 'secrets of the heart' means?: knowing you on a personal level. Besides, "all-knowing" covers all bases anyways.
Bottom line: I pressed you to produced a verse to substantiate your claim, but I knew you wouldn't and couldn't, because one doesn't exist.
----
You also committed a logical fallacy: he had no kids, so therefore he can't know his creation? Again, wrong.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But I beg to differ. I have shown you time and time again with Scriptures from the Bible and Surahs from the Qur'an that your views are untenable, contradictory, and just plain false.Have you ever heard of or are you familiar with the Law of noncontradiction?
So if we have some different views of Jesus, Jesus would then be two different entities? Your logic is laughable.
Yes, saying "God knows everything and God knows nothing" would be an example. This isn't the case, Islam and Christianity simply have different views (not all though) of God's M.O. E.g. Christians believe God became flesh to save us and teach us his final "laws", Islam believes God spoke them to the prophet Muhammad. Views of methods differ, same God.
In regards to "Allah is not a father", your ignorance is on clear display there. Islam views God as the creator of all, just like Christianity and Judaism, ergo, God would be "a father".
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I follow you perfectly, and you're wrong. Nothing can be inferred from the Koran, because its to be taken literally. If it's not explicitly stated, then it isn't. So you're inference is wrong from the beginning, because it's inapplicable.The Koran repeatedly asserts that God is "all-knowing", "fully aware" and "knows the secrets of the heart". None of those are metaphors. What do you think 'secrets of the heart' means?: knowing you on a personal level. Besides, "all-knowing" covers all bases anyways.
Bottom line: I pressed you to produced a verse to substantiate your claim, but I knew you wouldn't and couldn't, because one doesn't exist.
----
You also committed a logical fallacy: he had no kids, so therefore he can't know his creation? Again, wrong.
Let me explain what I meant by Allah does not know his creation on a personal level. I mean in a familial manner i.e. like a Father knows his children. Allah is not a father (this is firmly established in the Qur'an) so he does not know what it is to be a father to children in that sense. But YHWH, the God of the Bible, is a Father, has a Son (Jesus), and has a family i.e. sons and daughters/believers in Jesus Christ. We are the children of God by virture of our faith in Jesus, albeit by adoption. So this is what I meant by personal level. No Muslim refers to Allah as father because Allah is not a father. It just is what it is. But YHWH is my Heavenly Father just as He is the Father of Christ. I have received the authority to be a child of God thanks to Jesus Christ.
This is but one difference between YWHW and Allah that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are not one and the same.
I did furnish Surahs that I believed buttressed my point but you did not accept them as support.
Again, have you heard of or are you familiar with the Law of noncontradiction?
I had a FRIEND...give his qur'an to look at I did not get further than the part where jesus was absolved of claiming to be god..brought up to heaven for judgement..brought str8 up like moses...I just simply gave it back....my whole faith is based on this cool dude sent by God to choose if we were worth saving..he saw what we had to go thru and died for us...to save us....I'd die 2 save my children....if I had 2...(i Only had one but she's a great kid!!)...Christ was here had a choice he saw we can be kewl...we have potential ....so he died for his kingdom...earth is His
Originally posted by Robtard
So if we have some different views of Jesus, Jesus would then be two different entities? Your logic is laughable.Yes, saying "God knows everything and God knows nothing" would be an example. This isn't the case, Islam and Christianity simply have different views (not all though) of God's M.O. E.g. Christians believe God became flesh to save us and teach us his final "laws", Islam believes God spoke them to the prophet Muhammad. Views of methods differ, same God.
In regards to "Allah is not a father", your ignorance is on clear display there. Islam views God as the creator of all, just like Christianity and Judaism, ergo, God would be "a father".
These are not merely different views, it is not as simplistic as that. There are huge, fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam. For example, according to the Bible God has a Son, but the Qur'an vehemently denies this verity (Surah 4:171; 6:101; 18:4,5; 23:91). Second, the Bible affirms that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but the Qur'ran rejects this basic Biblical truth and simply views Jesus as just a Messenger or Prophet of Allah (Surah 4.171). Third, the Bible states that Jesus Christ was crucified between two thieves, but the Qur'an contradicts this Biblical fact (Surah 4.157). Fourth, the Bible clearly reveals that God is comprised of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but the Qur'an denounces this (Surah 4.171).
As you can see Robtard these are not just differing views, these are examples of the Law of noncontradiction being violated. YHWH is either triune (i.e. eternally existing in three equally divine Persons) or He is not. He cannot be both. The Bible preceded the Koran by hundreds of years, and it proves that YHWH is three Persons, one God.
Creator does not mean father in the same vein as YHWH is Father to Jesus and to believers. God is my Creator and my Father. But before I became born again, God was simply my Creator. There is a distinction that exists (see John 1:12). God is the Father of all spirits and the God of all flesh, but all spirits and all flesh are not God's children. In order to become a child of God a person must come to God through Jesus Christ. That is how a sinner is able to approach God Who is holy. The Bible states that the Lord knows those who are His:
John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name :
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
So, based on the above verses the whole Fatherhood of God, brotherhood of man tradition is false and inconsistent with the Scriptures.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Let me explain what I meant by Allah does not know his creation on a personal level.
What "you mean" doesn't matter, because the book isn't up for inferring or interpretation.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
he does not know what it is to be a father to children in that sense.
What part of "all knowing" do you not understand?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
This is but one difference between YWHW and Allah that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are not one and the same.
You didn't prove a damn thing. Different name, same entity.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I did furnish Surahs that I believed buttressed my point but you did not accept them as support.
Because they don't support your point. They affirm Tahwid (the Muslim doctrine of Oneness), and nothing more. So then you jump to the conclusion that he doesn't know what it likes to be a father, since there is no other way for an all knowing being to know the very thing he made.
Like I said; do you understand what "all knowing" means??
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Again, have you heard of or are you familiar with the Law of noncontradiction?
I know what it is, and you're not one to be giving lectures on logic.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
What "you mean" doesn't matter, because the book isn't up for inferring or interpretation.What part of "all knowing" do you not understand?
You didn't prove a damn thing. Different name, same entity.
Because they don't support your point. They affirm Tahwid (the Muslim doctrine of Oneness), and nothing more. So then you jump to the conclusion that he doesn't know what it likes to be a father, since there is no other way for an all knowing being to know the very thing he made.
Like I said; do you understand what "all knowing" means??
I know what it is, and you're not one to be giving lectures on logic.
Since you know what the Law of noncontradiction is do you understand that you have just violated it by claiming that YHWH and Allah are the same entity with a different name? That is not possible. YHWH has a Son and Allah denies having a son can you not see this enormous contradiction? The Bible reveals that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but the Qur'an denies this. God (YHWH) is triune and He has a Son.
Do you follow me Quiero Mota?
These are glaring, conspicuous contradictions that cannot be ignored nor swepped under the rug. I put them right out on front street for you to deal with. But, you don't have to if you choose not to.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Since you know what the Law of noncontradiction is do you understand that you have just violated it by claiming that YHWH and Allah are the same entity with a different name? That is not possible. YHWH has a Son and Allah denies having a son can you not see this enormous contradiction? The Bible reveals that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but the Qur'an denies this. God (YHWH) is triune and He has a Son.Do you follow me Quiero Mota?
These are glaring, conspicuous contradictions that cannot be ignored nor swepped under the rug. I put them right out on front street for you to deal with. But, you don't have to if you choose not to.
I didn't violate it because it doesn't apply. Remember Adam's example earlier? Two people witness the same car accident and their stories aren't identical, but that doesn't mean that they didn't see the same event. The Bible and the Koran are like two police reports that agree on approx. 85% percent of things.
Now you said that God according to the Koran cannot know his creation or understand what fatherhood is like. But if he is all knowing, then yes, he knows. That obliterates your claim, and the Suras you quoted didn't do anything. The concept of omnipotence isn't very hard to understand.
Do you follow me JIA?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Not at all, just hoping you could be objective...I hope you don't think that was a "gotcha" moment...
Being biased is not being objective, but I know what you mean.
No, I don't consider it a gotcha moment. See, I have already heard what you have to say about homosexuals. So, despite what the pope has told you to believe, you feel differenty than he has told you to believe, which illustrates some measure of independant thought and ability to reacch conclusions. (And can I just say the Pope worship in the couple of threads you and your fellow catholics have been discussing him is a little creepy? Maybe it's just one thread and I've read it more than once but it's a little weird.) (Especially in the one thread where you were talking about the ramifications of being involved in the cover up of the molestation, when I had read this Pope was the one who ordered the diocese to do what they had to in order to cover it up. (Before he was Pope) If I'm ill-informed, I'm certainly open to more information.)