The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
13:1That was the introduction,isaiah was talking about babylon and it's king
And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 13:19
more proof it's about babylon.
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
What nations did satan cut?
No, Lucifer is a latin word which means "Light Bringer" or "Morning Star", jesus is called lucifer in revalations. when it was first used in the book of Isaiah, it was towards the babylonian king and babylons "Sun worship".
Originally posted by Classic NES
Except that The Satan was allowed to test Job piety on the lords behalf.
He didn't test Job on anyone's behalf but his own. He took it upon himself to test Job and God allowed him the freedom to do so.
God in this instance didn't propose testing job that was the adversaries intent not God's.
It was Satan's intent to test Job not God's, God doesn't put obstacles to test man he only allows the obstacles to be there, he allows this test hoping that it'll strengthen rather than weaken Job's faith, understanding etc.
Read Job again, it was all Satan. God merely allows this angel the freedom to test Job.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) does not assign this level of personification to the devil; there, the Adversary (Ha-satan) is a servant of God whose job it is to test humankind.In the book of Job (Iyov), ha-satan is the title, not the proper name, of an angel submitted to God; he is the divine court's chief prosecutor. In Judaism ha-satan does not make evil, rather points out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind. In essence ha-satan has no power unless humans do evil things. After God points out Job's piety, ha-satan asks for permission to test the faith of Job. The righteous man is afflicted with loss of family, property, and later, health, but he still stays faithful to God. At the conclusion of this book God appears as a whirlwind, explaining to all that divine justice is inscrutable. In the epilogue Job's possessions are restored and he has a second family to "replace" the one that died.
Why would God need to have a court system for sin given it's nature? If a person commits a sin, it's like a crime by itself you don't need a prosecution for something that is clear-cut - as sin would be - to an entity like the Judeo-Christian God.
Further, observing God's character from Genesis throughout, whenever he's actually tested people directly it always had to do with achieving righteousness through obedience. Abraham with Isaac, Adam and Eve with the tree of knowledge.
Based on what he said of Job he never had any reason to directly test his righteousness. The only reason he allows Satan to test him is to prove what he says at the beginning about Job.
Is there any actual evidence that Satan was a heavenly presecutor? From reading Job it just seems like a gathering of angels and the Bible seems pretty clear on idenitifying a single angel as the Adversary. It may or may not be a title but the article "the" makes it seem like it's reserved to one angel not a number of angels occupying one title.
I beleive one other instance Jesus talks about the "accuser of Man", who is constantly tearing down mankind's legitimacy to the inheritance of God's promise.
To me given how all powerful the Judeo-Christian God is said to be I don't see what purpose a prosecutor (acting on his command) would serve, given that God can identify the crime for himself and has already done so since the foundation of the world.
Such a system would be contrary to the character of God in those books. Not to mention no such system is ever said to exist in those same books.
Originally posted by Allankles
He didn't test Job on anyone's behalf but his own. He took it upon himself to test Job and God allowed him the freedom to do so.
Wrong, he tested his character so he and the lord could see if he was really pious. The lord allowed him because he wanted to see.
Originally posted by Allankles
God in this instance didn't propose testing job that was the adversaries intent not God's.
It was his intent as well to see Jobs character, it doesn't matter who proposed it.
Originally posted by Allankles
It was Satan's intent to test Job not God's, God doesn't put obstacles to test man he only allows the obstacles to be there, he allows this test hoping that it'll strengthen rather than weaken Job's faith, understanding etc.
I did not say he put the obstacles there, I said he wanted to test his faith.
why dont you over analyze the bible it would explain more then just his court system.....you learn the firmament is made of clay, brass or iron..
im sure your clerks forgot to tell you half the stuff or ppl simply glance through it...or it could be they mistranslate alot of stuff from the hebrew bible..
Originally posted by Classic NES
Wrong, he tested his character so he and the lord could see if he was really pious. The lord allowed him because he wanted to see.
He allows Satan to have the power to test him he doesn't test him himself.
Originally posted by Classic NES
It was his intent as well to see Jobs character, it doesn't matter who proposed it.
He already knew Job's character. He is the one who mentions how righteous Job is.
Originally posted by Classic NES
I did not say he put the obstacles there, I said he wanted to test his faith.
He had no intention of testing Job's faith. The one with the intent was Satan. Reread Job.
EDIT: He basically says: "Fine test Job Satan everything he has is in your hands except the man's life". Nowhere does he claim to be testing Job himself.
Originally posted by Allankles
He allows Satan to have the power to test him he doesn't test him himself.
Originally posted by Allankles
He already knew Job's character. He is the one who mentions how righteous Job is.
He knew jobs character as he was when he was successful. He wanted to test his character to see if he would remain so if he was stricken with calamity.
Originally posted by Allankles
He had no intention of testing Job's faith. The one with the intent was Satan. Reread Job.
Wrong, he wanted to test his faith which is why he allowed it to happen. Take your own advice, because you're wrong.
Originally posted by Allankles
EDIT: He basically says: "Fine test Job Satan everything he has is in your hands except the man's life". Nowhere does he claim to be testing Job himself.
Where did I say he is testing Job Himself?
there you go heavenly court system.. and nxt time you question why god does crap reread the bible and see him do things.... just as ubsurd to his station and power page 208
Originally posted by Classic NES
He doesn't have to because it's obvious that his piety was a stake. Why else would he allow The Satan to antagonise Job?
He didn't have to prove anything to Satan.
Only by recognizing Satan as a single entity in opposition to God does the whole exchange make sense in the context of an all powerful God.
There's no reason why he needs to test Job's faith when he already knows that Job is righteous, he even claims that Job is righteous. No reason why he needs to play with the lives of Job and his family unless it was a lesson for this angel, unless he wanted to show the accuser the capacity for righteousness that Man possesses.
Of course it was a trying test for Job but God knew his heart and praised him for it at the beginning. There's nothing in Job that suggests that God's intent was to test Job.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
http://books.google.com/books?id=QJfmvbJZovkC&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=hebrew+heavenly+court&source=web&ots=NsdjxfTTZl&sig=ZPRLpmLMX8jLqHT5CAGkf9le2uE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPP1,M1there you go heavenly court system.. and nxt time you question why god does crap reread the bible and see him do things.... just as ubsurd to his station and power page 208
I asked for passages in the Bible that speak of a court in heaven and you give me an article on a book (Tree of Souls)? Am I supposed to believe this single interpretation? It's not even an interpretation based on the orthodox works which is where my focus is.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
god didn't need to test abraham , but he did it any ways...common sense is tingling
He doesn't need to test anybody is the point. He tested Abraham for no other reason than that he would choose righteousness through obedience. However for Job he had already counted Job as a righteous man and it was Satan trying to goad Job into cursing God, different scenarios, no?
Translating the Word
Standing behind the translation "Satan" in almost all translations is the Hebrew word hasatan. In Hebrew the "ha" is the definite article. If we were, therefore, to take the name directly over into English it would be "The Satan." Every time the word is used in the first two chapters of Job (an amazing 12 times), the creature is called hasatan. Never once is it called "satan." Thus, as any good translator must do, you must render what you have. It is "The Satan." Therefore, the word hasatan is more of a title than a proper name, more of a designation than an appellation. The creature first appearing in Job 1:6 is hasatan. He/she/it also appears in Zech.3:1-2 as hasatan. The root s-t-n in Hebrew means "adversary" or "opponent," so the best translation of hasatan in Job 1-2 is "The Adversary" or "The Opponent." We will learn better what his name means when we understand what it does.
The Satan in Job 1-2
The first thing we notice about hasatan in Job 1 is that it appears in the presence of God along with the "sons of God." The picture assumed by Job 1 is similar to what is described in I Kings 22 where Micaiah ben Imlah says:
19 "Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21 until a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' 22 'How?' the LORD asked him. He replied, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then the LORD said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.'"
That is, a few Old Testament texts assume that God, though One, is surrounded in heaven by a sort of heavenly court, with messengers coming to and fro to do God's bidding and report on affairs throughout the kingdom. It is certainly an anthropomorphism--Near Eastern and Egyptian understanding of kingship also had a royal figure who employed many functionaries to gather data for and report back to the king. It is in this context that hasatan, The Adversary appears.
Second, it isn't clear whether the Adversay is a member of the heavenly court or is a sort of interloper. Verse 6, which says that The Satan was among them (the "sons of God"😉 is ambiguous on this question. The text says that the sons of God came to stand before God, "and The Satan also came among them." We can infer neither that The Satan was part or wasn't a regular part of the group. We do know, however, that when God speaks to The Satan, it is on cordial or even friendly terms.
Third, following up on the point just made, there is no indication that The Satan in Job is to be identified with Satan in the New Testament. That Satan is unalterably opposed to God and is not portrayed as living or traveling in the heavenly court with God. Satan in the New Testament portrayal is already in hell with his minions. There is no way that The Satan in Job and Satan in the New Testament share the same world.
Fourth, when the text mentions the name as The Satan or the Adversary, we should realize that the primary adversary of this creature is Job and not God (while the New Testament Satan is inveterately opposed to God). As a matter of fact, God strikes up a rather amiable conversation with The Satan. The Satan isn't out to "get Job," as it were. In fact, it is God who is seemingly unsure of Job's absolutely loyalty, and The Satan proposes a test to determine the genuineness of Job's faith. Thus, The Satan devises a scheme that goes against Job and not God. Rather than opposing God, as the Book of Job portrays it, The Satan is actually helping God figure out whether or not Job's piety is induced by favorable economic and familial blessings.
Conclusion
The most that can be said by those who want to maintain that The Satan in Job is the same as Satan in the New Testament is that The Satan has certain "personality traits" which, if "developed" might help him morph in to Satan. However, most conservatives don't like to think or argue like this. Thus, if they are honest with the text they need just to render its name The Satan or The Adversary and see this creature as a sort of agent of or subordinate to God whose special task it is to bring human conduct to God's attention. The world assumed by the author of Job is one of royal courts, where kings send their ministers out to perform various functions. God, too, must be set up like a human king. The Satan, then, may be crafty and sneaky, but God doesn't seem to be able to see through the Satan's sneakiness (which creates a bit of a problem for those maintaining the absolute sovereignty and ominscience of God). The Satan, however, is not a totally evil figure, trying to wreck the designs of a good God.