Can you handle the Truth?

Started by Classic NES432 pages
Originally posted by Allankles
He didn't have to prove anything to Satan.

Yet, he did by allowing The Satan to persecute Job. That's a funny way of not showing something.

Originally posted by Allankles

Only by recognizing Satan as a single entity in opposition to God does the whole exchange make sense in the context of an all powerful God.

No, it does not, that's just how you wish to interpret it.

Originally posted by Allankles

There's no reason why he needs to test Job's faith when he already knows that Job is righteous, he even claims that Job is righteous.

Because he believes he is Righteous, just because he is testing it does not mean he lost faith in Job. He is simply testing it to prove tha his claim about Jobs character is correct.

Originally posted by Allankles

No reason why he needs to play with the lives of Job and his family unless it was a lesson for this angel, unless he wanted to show the accuser the capacity for righteousness that Man possesses.

And, he does that by testing his character. . .How does that change what I said? He wanted to affirm his character by testing his faith.

Originally posted by Allankles

Of course it was a trying test for Job but God knew his heart and praised him for it at the beginning. There's nothing in Job that suggests that God's intent was to test Job.

Are you kidding me, So, tell me what was The Satan trying to show when he persecuted Job and why was the book emphasizing the fact that Job did not curse God? Was it not proof of Jobs piety that was the issue at hand?

Originally posted by Allankles
He doesn't need to test anybody is the point. He tested Abraham for no other reason than that he would choose righteousness through obedience. However for Job he had already counted Job as a righteous man and it was Satan trying to goad Job into cursing God, different scenarios, no?

why the hell did god give job a new family instead of reviving his old one?

and god test mankind all the time its the christian creed and fall back motto........... why do i suffer why do bad things happen why the the hurricane//////

common answer : because god is testing you

http://www.geocities.com/~Alyza/Jewish/satan.html

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Translating the Word

Standing behind the translation "Satan" in almost all translations is the Hebrew word hasatan. In Hebrew the "ha" is the definite article. If we were, therefore, to take the name directly over into English it would be "The Satan." Every time the word is used in the first two chapters of Job (an amazing 12 times), the creature is called hasatan. Never once is it called "satan." Thus, as any good translator must do, you must render what you have. It is "The Satan." Therefore, the word hasatan is more of a title than a proper name, more of a designation than an appellation. The creature first appearing in Job 1:6 is hasatan. He/she/it also appears in Zech.3:1-2 as hasatan. The root s-t-n in Hebrew means "adversary" or "opponent," so the best translation of hasatan in Job 1-2 is "The Adversary" or "The Opponent." We will learn better what his name means when we understand what it does.

The Satan in Job 1-2

The first thing we notice about hasatan in Job 1 is that it appears in the presence of God along with the "sons of God." The picture assumed by Job 1 is similar to what is described in I Kings 22 where Micaiah ben Imlah says:

19 "Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21 until a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' 22 'How?' the LORD asked him. He replied, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then the LORD said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.'"

That is, a few Old Testament texts assume that God, though One, is surrounded in heaven by a sort of heavenly court, with messengers coming to and fro to do God's bidding and report on affairs throughout the kingdom. It is certainly an anthropomorphism--Near Eastern and Egyptian understanding of kingship also had a royal figure who employed many functionaries to gather data for and report back to the king. It is in this context that hasatan, The Adversary appears.

Second, it isn't clear whether the Adversay is a member of the heavenly court or is a sort of interloper. Verse 6, which says that The Satan was among them (the "sons of God"😉 is ambiguous on this question. The text says that the sons of God came to stand before God, "and The Satan also came among them." We can infer neither that The Satan was part or wasn't a regular part of the group. We do know, however, that when God speaks to The Satan, it is on cordial or even friendly terms.

Third, following up on the point just made, there is no indication that The Satan in Job is to be identified with Satan in the New Testament. That Satan is unalterably opposed to God and is not portrayed as living or traveling in the heavenly court with God. Satan in the New Testament portrayal is already in hell with his minions. There is no way that The Satan in Job and Satan in the New Testament share the same world.

Fourth, when the text mentions the name as The Satan or the Adversary, we should realize that the primary adversary of this creature is Job and not God (while the New Testament Satan is inveterately opposed to God). As a matter of fact, God strikes up a rather amiable conversation with The Satan. The Satan isn't out to "get Job," as it were. In fact, it is God who is seemingly unsure of Job's absolutely loyalty, and The Satan proposes a test to determine the genuineness of Job's faith. Thus, The Satan devises a scheme that goes against Job and not God. Rather than opposing God, as the Book of Job portrays it, The Satan is actually helping God figure out whether or not Job's piety is induced by favorable economic and familial blessings.

Conclusion

The most that can be said by those who want to maintain that The Satan in Job is the same as Satan in the New Testament is that The Satan has certain "personality traits" which, if "developed" might help him morph in to Satan. However, most conservatives don't like to think or argue like this. Thus, if they are honest with the text they need just to render its name The Satan or The Adversary and see this creature as a sort of agent of or subordinate to God whose special task it is to bring human conduct to God's attention. The world assumed by the author of Job is one of royal courts, where kings send their ministers out to perform various functions. God, too, must be set up like a human king. The Satan, then, may be crafty and sneaky, but God doesn't seem to be able to see through the Satan's sneakiness (which creates a bit of a problem for those maintaining the absolute sovereignty and ominscience of God). The Satan, however, is not a totally evil figure, trying to wreck the designs of a good God.

I've had this debates with Jews in another forum a few years ago. Jewish-chrsitian section of netscape.

So I know Satan is actually a translation of the adversary.

Also the whole Satan is crafty and sneaky and god can't see through his sneakiness part that sought of comes into the discussion with orthodox Jews I think misses the whole relationship of God and Satan.

I look at it like this (my interpretation) to me it doesn't really matter, because there's a lot of ambiguity. For me the Satan of the NE is the same as the Satan of the Hebrew Bible.

He may be an angel cast away at the foundation of the world and who (powerless) set about to tempt Man into relinquishing their inheritance. For one he sets Man up against God by tempting them to sin. He has no power except that which is given to him and Man relinquishes the authority he had in Eden to Satan by acting on Satan's lies.

By commandeering this authority through guile alone he usurps Man's throne and is able to come before God like he did in Job.

Why didn't God intercede in the Garden? Freewill. By giving Adam and Eve free will he wants them to come to righteousness by freely choosing to obey God.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
why the hell did god give job a new family instead of reviving his old one?

and god test mankind all the time its the christian creed and fall back motto........... why do i suffer why do bad things happen why the the hurricane//////

common answer : because god is testing you

http://www.geocities.com/~Alyza/Jewish/satan.html

Do you always drop the Dead pool scans when you post? I might think about getting some dead pool after reading some of these what titles do you propose?

Anyway I don't believe in God testing people. I don't see why he'd need to. I think the world is just imperfect and in an imperfect world shit happens, crisis happen. So how you cope is what is important.

whatever.... there is no personified evil.... Christians made it up through their ignorant mistranslation of the hebrew bible and added the satan as person in order to control the populance.... forgetting the context in how he was used in old literature... even made up his fall from grace and turned the serpent into him..

http://www.geocities.com/~Alyza/Jewish/satan.html

simplified the view of editing all his stuff is funny i like cable and deadpool

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
whatever.... there is no personified evil.... Christians made it up through their ignorant mistranslation of the hebrew bible and added the satan as person in order to control the populance.... forgetting the context in how he was used in old literature... even made up his fall from grace and turned the serpent into him..

http://www.geocities.com/~Alyza/Jewish/satan.html

simplified the view of editing

I don't see Satan as the personification of evil. And interpretations are just that. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. In the Bible he is always in opposition of Man so it's easy to see why people would view him as being evil whether he is or not, he certainly doesn't benefit mankind.

God test people to see their worth in his divine plan.

Originally posted by Classic NES
God test people to see their worth in his divine plan.

And you believe that?

there you go your A OK in my book just from that open minded comment....

'member faith is ok but blind faith can b dangerous

That's what I've heard from some Christians. It's an interesting position that is apparent in the Bible. I dunno if I could proscribe to it.

need you to jump off this tree... why? its a trust exercise...
but that guy hates me he threaten to hurt me last night at the bar...
its ok that was yesterday this is today... now jump.. OK

(why does he have that smile on his face?) ow!! broke my arm he didnt catch me!!! well i hope you learned something about trust and blind faith..

What does Blind faith have to do with what I'm talking about?

[That isn't even my personal belief, BTW.]

Originally posted by Classic NES
What does Blind faith have to do with what I'm talking about?

[That isn't even my personal belief, BTW.]

i know i was bored wanted to write my own parable... i should b a religious writer maybe a messiah or prophet make some prophet

Merry Christ-mas everyone

😄

happy holiday 🙂

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Merry Christ-mas everyone

😄

Happy 9 months ago when Mary got knocked up and pulled a fast one about the whole virgin thing 😆 😛

Happy Holidays no matter what you believe in.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Happy 9 months ago when Mary got knocked up and pulled a fast one about the whole virgin thing 😆 😛

That was basically the Christmas Eve sermon at my church this year.

Originally posted by Classic NES
God test people to see their worth in his divine plan.

Yeah, he gets bored...

thats what i would do... hell i mess with my pets when i get bored. i could see god doing the same

repent of your unholy sins

Preach the truth, brother! The unholy members of this board will burn in hell forever if they don't repent of their ways. Those idolators who have replaced Jesus with Superman and God with Wolverine will suffer an eternity of fire, brimstone, and reruns of Full House....

Repent of your sins for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All blacks, homosexuals, women, and dwarfs must repent of their unholy sins and give their lives to christ,...for it is a sin to be shorter than Wolverine, to have black sin or to menstrate.....

Marvel is of Satan for it teaches the lie of EVILution that human beings can evolve into higher beings. My friends, reading about how mutations can cause people to heal instantly or have steel-hard skin only leads to confusion and disconnection with the Word of God. Only wholesome, Christian stories that portray the earth as 6000 years old and convey the reality of people coming back to life are acceptable and true.

My friends we have a true Savior in Christ Jesus for not only did he walk on water but also defeated Satan in three panals.....repent now and give your lives over to Christ...