Can you handle the Truth?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[b]"Mohammed

Many Muslims claim that Mohammed also never sinned. But compare his life to Jesus' life:

Broken treaties

While ruling in Medina, Mohammed made a treaty not to attack Mecca for ten years. He then attacked them the very next year. [CRI-33f]

Violence and assassination

Mohammed used violence, including assassination, to defeat and convert men to Islam [WR-98; EB, XV-648]. Jesus converted people by teaching, persuasion, and example. He never used force, nor would He allow His disciples to use force, even when His enemies attacked Him.

Polygamy

Mohammed had 12 wives and 2 concubines at the time of his death. [CRI-32]

Revelations for personal convenience and benefit

* Mohammed revealed that men could have plural wives, but not more than four at a time (Koran 4 - p48). However, a special revelation said that he himself could have more than 4 wives. He had 12 when he died. (Koran 33:50,51 - p228)

* He revealed that no man could marry his own daughter-in-law. Then a special revelation allowed him to take the wife of his adopted son. (Koran 33:37 - p227)

* Arabs once starved him, because they opposed his teaching against idolatry. He then received a "revelation" condoning idolatry. As soon as they released him, he reversed the revelation and again said idolatry was wrong. [EB, XV-647]

Mohammed himself never claimed to be sinless.

In fact he admitted he and other prophets committed sin. But he never claimed that Jesus sinned. [CRI-26,50; WR-99]

So, whereas Christians and Muslims agree Jesus was sinless, there is much reason to doubt Mohammed's sinlessness. Based on their character then, who was greater: Mohammed or Jesus?"

http://www.gospelway.com/religiousgroups/islam.php [/B]

actually, I agree with you. Islamic tradition says that Mohammad was mortal, and thus subject to the imperfections of mortals.

Were I a believer, I feel this is way more rational than Christianity and its 3 as 1 divinity, but certainly not what draws me to Islam. It would be the idea of "Submission" at its core, the military and political success of Islam during the life of the Prophet and the subsequent 200 years, but mostly from the Sufi traditions in the wake of the death of the prophet, as they are essentially anarchist Islam.

But, I'm not a believer, so I don't find most of this relevant.

YouTube video

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
YouTube videoIn other words the universe is not eternal.

Originally posted by inimalist
actually, I agree with you. Islamic tradition says that Mohammad was mortal, and thus subject to the imperfections of mortals.

Were I a believer, I feel this is way more rational than Christianity and its 3 as 1 divinity, but certainly not what draws me to Islam. It would be the idea of "Submission" at its core, the military and political success of Islam during the life of the Prophet and the subsequent 200 years, but mostly from the Sufi traditions in the wake of the death of the prophet, as they are essentially anarchist Islam.

But, I'm not a believer, so I don't find most of this relevant.

So then we are back at the original subject? The universe is not eternal. Anything that begins to exist must have a cause. The universe began to exist therefore it has a cause.

"Singularity Problems

What is a "singularity"? The big-bang universe begins in a singularity (all matter, energy, space, and time crushed into a point of infinite density).

There is no known mechanism to start the universe expanding out of the singularity - the equations in the theory only work after the expansion has begun. (3) A singularity is considered to be a breakdown of theory. That is, it cannot be assumed that the laws of physics as we know them can apply to the event, thus presenting serious questions about it.
W.B. Bonnor (in 1960) wrote that, "a singularity in mathematics is an indication of the breakdown of a theory" that must be done away with, and Cambridge astrophysicist B. J. Carr (in 1982) said that "all known physics breaks down" in a singularity. Oxford professor of astrophysics Dennis Sciama (in 1967) declared the big-bang singularity to be "one of the botches" of the universe. (4)

Possibly the most serious aspect of the big-bang singularity, of course, is that it is the creation of all the mass and energy of the entire universe out of nothing. According to Standard big-bang theory, before the big-bang there was nothing: no space, no time, no matter, no energy. No explanation had been given for that within reasonable bounds of known physical science.

Other difficulties which need explanation:

- The dynamics of speeds greater than light that would be necessary.
- The universe as a black hole. The infinitely dense big-bang universe would initially be in exactly that state.
- A closed cycling big-bang universe which deals with the collapsing of the present universe or a previous one.
- A convergence problem for a closed cycling universe which deals with irregularities in the distribution of matter in space.
- Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics in a closed cycling universe, which necessitates the total entropy of the universe decreasing from a high level to nearly zero. (5)
- The dynamics of speeds greater than light that would be necessary.
- The universe as a black hole. The infinitely dense big- bang universe would initially be in exactly that state.
- A closed cycling big-bang universe which deals with the collapsing of the present universe or a previous one.
- A convergence problem for a closed cycling universe which deals with irregularities in the distribution of matter in space.
- Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics in a closed cycling universe, which necessitates the total entropy of the universe decreasing from a high level to nearly zero. (5)"

Mitchell, William C., Bye Bye Big Bang Hello Reality, Cosmic Sense Books,
2002,
3. Williams, Alexander and Hartnett, John, Dismantling the Big Bang, Master Books,
2005
4. Mitchell, p. 52
5. Mitchell, pp. 52-55

http://www.creationstudies.org/Education/big_bang

"A further difficulty concerns black holes. A black hole is a collapsed star which is so dense that, if one is sufficiently close to it (the "event horizon"😉, nothing can escape from it, not even light. Using general relativity, one can prove that it takes an infinite amount of energy to remove a single particle from inside the event horizon of a black hole. The problem, of course, is that if the entire universe was originally squashed into a singularity, then that singularity was the granddaddy of all black holes. Whatever caused the Big Bang must have had infinite energy."

http://www.messiahtruth.com/bang.html

The only possible explanation for the existence of the universe is God. He has the energy (power) to create it (God is omnipotent) and the wisdom, intelligence, and understanding (God is omniscient) to sustain it through His laws (fundamental forces etc.).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So then we are back at the original subject? The universe is not eternal. Anything that begins to exist must have a cause. The universe began to exist therefore it has a cause.

[b]"Singularity Problems

What is a "singularity"? The big-bang universe begins in a singularity (all matter, energy, space, and time crushed into a point of infinite density).

There is no known mechanism to start the universe expanding out of the singularity - the equations in the theory only work after the expansion has begun. (3) A singularity is considered to be a breakdown of theory. That is, it cannot be assumed that the laws of physics as we know them can apply to the event, thus presenting serious questions about it.
W.B. Bonnor (in 1960) wrote that, "a singularity in mathematics is an indication of the breakdown of a theory" that must be done away with, and Cambridge astrophysicist B. J. Carr (in 1982) said that "all known physics breaks down" in a singularity. Oxford professor of astrophysics Dennis Sciama (in 1967) declared the big-bang singularity to be "one of the botches" of the universe. (4)

Possibly the most serious aspect of the big-bang singularity, of course, is that it is the creation of all the mass and energy of the entire universe out of nothing. According to Standard big-bang theory, before the big-bang there was nothing: no space, no time, no matter, no energy. No explanation had been given for that within reasonable bounds of known physical science.

Other difficulties which need explanation:

- The dynamics of speeds greater than light that would be necessary.
- The universe as a black hole. The infinitely dense big-bang universe would initially be in exactly that state.
- A closed cycling big-bang universe which deals with the collapsing of the present universe or a previous one.
- A convergence problem for a closed cycling universe which deals with irregularities in the distribution of matter in space.
- Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics in a closed cycling universe, which necessitates the total entropy of the universe decreasing from a high level to nearly zero. (5)
- The dynamics of speeds greater than light that would be necessary.
- The universe as a black hole. The infinitely dense big- bang universe would initially be in exactly that state.
- A closed cycling big-bang universe which deals with the collapsing of the present universe or a previous one.
- A convergence problem for a closed cycling universe which deals with irregularities in the distribution of matter in space.
- Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics in a closed cycling universe, which necessitates the total entropy of the universe decreasing from a high level to nearly zero. (5)"

Mitchell, William C., Bye Bye Big Bang Hello Reality, Cosmic Sense Books,
2002,
3. Williams, Alexander and Hartnett, John, Dismantling the Big Bang, Master Books,
2005
4. Mitchell, p. 52
5. Mitchell, pp. 52-55

http://www.creationstudies.org/Education/big_bang

"A further difficulty concerns black holes. A black hole is a collapsed star which is so dense that, if one is sufficiently close to it (the "event horizon"😉, nothing can escape from it, not even light. Using general relativity, one can prove that it takes an infinite amount of energy to remove a single particle from inside the event horizon of a black hole. The problem, of course, is that if the entire universe was originally squashed into a singularity, then that singularity was the granddaddy of all black holes. Whatever caused the Big Bang must have had infinite energy."

http://www.messiahtruth.com/bang.html

The only possible explanation for the existence of the universe is God. He has the energy (power) to create it (God is omnipotent) and the wisdom, intelligence, and understanding (God is omniscient) to sustain it through His laws (fundamental forces etc.). [/B]

If I was going to side with a fictional character, I'd choose one way better than Jesus. Like the California Raisins.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So then we are back at the original subject? The universe is not eternal. Anything that begins to exist must have a cause. The universe began to exist therefore it has a cause.

This is an incorrect statement. Energy cannot be created of destroyed. Fundamentally everything in the universe is energy. Therefore, the universe cannot be created or destroyed. What about the Big Bang, you may then ask. The Big Bang was not a creation; it was a change.

I love it when people consider their philisophical arguments (mostly likely acquired in an intro to philosophy class) to be fact.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The only possible explanation for the existence of the universe is God. He has the energy (power) to create it (God is omnipotent) and the wisdom, intelligence, and understanding (God is omniscient) to sustain it through His laws (fundamental forces etc.).

""General relativity can be used to describe the universe back to a point at which matter becomes so dense that its equations don't hold up," says Abhay Ashtekar, Holder of the Eberly Family Chair in Physics and Director of the Institute for Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State. "Beyond that point, we needed to apply quantum tools that were not available to Einstein." By combining quantum physics with general relativity, Ashtekar and two of his post-doctoral researchers, Tomasz Pawlowski and Parmpreet Singh, were able to develop a model that traces through the Big Bang to a shrinking universe that exhibits physics similar to ours.

In research reported in the current issue of Physical Review Letters, the team shows that, prior to the Big Bang, there was a contracting universe with space-time geometry that otherwise is similar to that of our current expanding universe. As gravitational forces pulled this previous universe inward, it reached a point at which the quantum properties of space-time cause gravity to become repulsive, rather than attractive. "Using quantum modifications of Einstein's cosmological equations, we have shown that in place of a classical Big Bang there is in fact a quantum Bounce," says Ashtekar. "We were so surprised by the finding that there is another classical, pre-Big Bang universe that we repeated the simulations with different parameter values over several months, but we found that the Big Bounce scenario is robust.""

http://www.universetoday.com/2006/05/17/before-the-big-bang/

Originally posted by Da Pittman
So if these guys mathmatical theory is correct this would show that their was a universe before ours.

""General relativity can be used to describe the universe back to a point at which matter becomes so dense that its equations don't hold up," says Abhay Ashtekar, Holder of the Eberly Family Chair in Physics and Director of the Institute for Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State. "Beyond that point, we needed to apply quantum tools that were not available to Einstein." By combining quantum physics with general relativity, Ashtekar and two of his post-doctoral researchers, Tomasz Pawlowski and Parmpreet Singh, were able to develop a model that traces through the Big Bang to a shrinking universe that exhibits physics similar to ours.

In research reported in the current issue of Physical Review Letters, the team shows that, prior to the Big Bang, there was a contracting universe with space-time geometry that otherwise is similar to that of our current expanding universe. As gravitational forces pulled this previous universe inward, it reached a point at which the quantum properties of space-time cause gravity to become repulsive, rather than attractive. "Using quantum modifications of Einstein's cosmological equations, we have shown that in place of a classical Big Bang there is in fact a quantum Bounce," says Ashtekar. "We were so surprised by the finding that there is another classical, pre-Big Bang universe that we repeated the simulations with different parameter values over several months, but we found that the Big Bounce scenario is robust.""

http://www.universetoday.com/2006/05/17/before-the-big-bang/

Wow! that would agree with the fact that energy cannot be created.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[b]"Mohammed

Many Muslims claim that Mohammed also never sinned. But compare his life to Jesus' life:

Broken treaties

While ruling in Medina, Mohammed made a treaty not to attack Mecca for ten years. He then attacked them the very next year. [CRI-33f]

Violence and assassination

Mohammed used violence, including assassination, to defeat and convert men to Islam [WR-98; EB, XV-648]. Jesus converted people by teaching, persuasion, and example. He never used force, nor would He allow His disciples to use force, even when His enemies attacked Him.

Polygamy

Mohammed had 12 wives and 2 concubines at the time of his death. [CRI-32]

Revelations for personal convenience and benefit

* Mohammed revealed that men could have plural wives, but not more than four at a time (Koran 4 - p48). However, a special revelation said that he himself could have more than 4 wives. He had 12 when he died. (Koran 33:50,51 - p228)

* He revealed that no man could marry his own daughter-in-law. Then a special revelation allowed him to take the wife of his adopted son. (Koran 33:37 - p227)

* Arabs once starved him, because they opposed his teaching against idolatry. He then received a "revelation" condoning idolatry. As soon as they released him, he reversed the revelation and again said idolatry was wrong. [EB, XV-647]

Mohammed himself never claimed to be sinless.

In fact he admitted he and other prophets committed sin. But he never claimed that Jesus sinned. [CRI-26,50; WR-99]

So, whereas Christians and Muslims agree Jesus was sinless, there is much reason to doubt Mohammed's sinlessness. Based on their character then, who was greater: Mohammed or Jesus?"

http://www.gospelway.com/religiousgroups/islam.php [/B]

1. the treaty of hudaibia was broken when two of the opposing tribes decided not to pay blood money for tribeseman they had killed and instead decided to dissolve the treaty. it was broken by the quraish, not muhammad

2. he didnt have any concubines

3. he never condoned idolatry

4. he claimed that jesus was a prophet of god. by your logic that makes jesus a sinner. and indirectly he claimed many times that he was sinless and his actions were the physical embodiement of the word of god, a living quran.

ofcourse its all made up bullshit, but still, if you wanna switch topics and defame a relegion, learn sumthing about it first.

Leonheartmm, another pagan who can't handle "the truth."

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So, whereas Christians and Muslims agree Jesus was sinless, there is much reason to doubt Mohammed's sinlessness.Based on their character then, who was greater: Mohammed or Jesus?"

Originally posted by Robtard
In Vs fight, I do think Mohammad would defeat Jesus. Mohammad was supposed to be something of a warlord, before he took up the profession of prophet.

He was a bit of a warlord after he became a prophet too.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He was a bit of a warlord after he became a prophet too.

Just solidifies my stance, Mohammad would definitely "pwn" Jesus.

One thing of note, Jesus is a bit of a damage sponge, he took the beatings, crucifixion and finally died from a spear stab, Mohammad is going to have to be on his A-game.

Spamming

Spamming

Energy being created would brake the first law of thermodynamics.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Spamming

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Spamming

Was that directed at me? Because you asked the question 'who was greater', I gave you reasons why Mohammad is, from a fight perspective.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Spamming

Originally posted by Robtard
Was that directed at me? Because you asked the question 'who was greater', I gave you reasons why Mohammad is, from a fight perspective.

This isn't Spam it's filet mignon.

Einstein's calculations indicate that the universe is expanding. This discovery revealed that the universe had a beginning. Einstein did not want to believe that the universe had a beginning because that would imply a Creator so he incorporated a (cosmological) constant into his equation to counteract the expansion to provide for a static, eternal universe. However, Hubble's red shift findings substantiated Einstein's original calculations that the universe is indeed expanding.

Einstein admitted that this was the biggest error (blunder) that he's ever made.

Question: If Einstein can admit that he made an error can you? Is it possible that you have erred in your thinking about the existence of God?

Still believe that the universe is eternal? The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics contradicts you. All of the discoveries of the last 100 years (perhaps even further back) continue to agree with or support Bible revelation. The universe came into existence by an outside phenomenon.

What say you?

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.