Can you handle the Truth?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

This isn't Spam it's filet mignon.

Einstein's calculations indicate that the universe is expanding. This discovery revealed that the universe had a beginning. Einstein did not want to believe that the universe had a beginning because that would imply a Creator so he incorporated a (cosmological) constant into his equation to counteract the expansion to provide for a static, eternal universe. However, Hubble's red shift findings substantiated Einstein's original calculations that the universe is indeed expanding.

Einstein admitted that this was the biggest error (blunder) that he's ever made.

Question: If Einstein can admit that he made an error can you? Is it possible that you have erred in your thinking about the existence of God?

Still believe that the universe is eternal? The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics contradicts you. All of the discoveries of the last 100years (perhaps even further back) continue to agree with or support Bible revelation.

What say you?

[b]Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [/B]

Einstein's equations did not indicate that the universe was expanding. His calculations showed that the universe could not be static. In other words, the universe must be expanding or contracting. Some people believe that the universe will stop expanding and then contract back down to a big crunch. It is possible that this is what happened before the big bang. The universe maybe a never ending expanding and contracting universe.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

This isn't Spam it's filet mignon.

Einstein's calculations indicate that the universe is expanding. This discovery revealed that the universe had a beginning. Einstein did not want to believe that the universe had a beginning because that would imply a Creator so he incorporated a (cosmological) constant into his equation to counteract the expansion to provide for a static, eternal universe. However, Hubble's red shift findings substantiated Einstein's original calculations that the universe is indeed expanding.

Einstein admitted that this was the biggest error (blunder) that he's ever made.

Question: If Einstein can admit that he made an error can you? Is it possible that you have erred in your thinking about the existence of God?

Still believe that the universe is eternal? The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics contradicts you. All of the discoveries of the last 100 years (perhaps even further back) continue to agree with or support Bible revelation. The universe came into existence by an outside phenomenon.

What say you?

[b]Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [/B]

einstien wasnt afraid of a CREATOR, just reasoned on logic based on what was available at the time. he was talking about mathematically and physicall observable and quantifyable phenomenon. you are talking about a never seen, never heard, never sensed, abstract, self contradicting entity without a shred of evidence. there is a difference.

p.s. you wont get far in the field of science, or understanding for that matter, if the entirety of your physical knowledge depends on out of contect psuedo scientific articles from creationist websites.

Originally posted by AngryManatee

This isn't Spam it's filet mignon.

Question: Do springs wind themselves? Do dumb, unintelligent, impersonal, non-volitional quantum fluctuations cause the four fundamental forces, predictable, mathematically quantifiable laws (i.e. of nature), time, matter, and space to exist in a highly organized, life-sustaining, finely-tuned system?

What are the odds?

“The degree of fine-tuning is difficult to imagine. Dr. Hugh Ross gives an example of the least fine-tuned of the above four examples in his book, The Creator and the Cosmos, which is reproduced here:

One part in 1037 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 1037.” (p. 115)

Side note: Dr. Carl Sagan of Cornell University convincingly demonstrated that the probability of life arising through the slow process of evolution is for all practical intents and purposes zero (exceedingly, exceedingly improbable. Don't believe me look it up under Borel's Law. It is followed by two billion zeros).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

This isn't Spam it's filet mignon.

Question: Do springs wind themselves? Do dumb, unintelligent, impersonal, non-volitional quantum fluctuations cause the four fundamental forces, predictable, mathematically quantifiable laws (i.e. of nature), time, matter, and space to exist in a highly organized, life-sustaining, finely-tuned system? What are the odds?

“The degree of fine-tuning is difficult to imagine. Dr. Hugh Ross gives an example of the least fine-tuned of the above four examples in his book, The Creator and the Cosmos, which is reproduced here:
One part in 1037 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 1037.” (p. 115)

Dr. Carl Sagan of Cornell University convincingly demonstrated that the probability of life arising through the slow process of evolution is for all practical intents and purposes zero (exceedingly, exceedingly improbable. Don't believe me look it up under Borel's Law. It is followed by two billion zeros).

predictability and quantifyability is a constant inside AND outside this universe in the entire multiverse so yes it does for a FACT. it isnt organised or finely tuned, these words have no meaning, you only find this reality organised and finely tuned because your only familiar with this one, the consistancy of the fundamental constants is true in ALL universe, even when they are different from ours, so they are JUST as fine tuned and ORGANISED as ours. s as for the last part, WE werent born IN the universe or just happened to be PUT in it{as your mind reasons based on christian/egotistical ideas} we are born OF it. and only the universe having the proper constants would have born life. your argument fails because you are thinking that we sumhow exist seperately from this universe and then you go on to question the probability of the chance that we would be born into sumthing that woul sustain us so well. the point is you didnt EXIST before or outside this universe, this universe bore you BECAUSE it had the constants to sustain you, there is no coincidence here.

your analogy is similar to a single plant growing surrounded by a hostile lifeless desert in the only place which had water dripping from a rock and a tiny shade. who question whether sum1 specifically created it, because "it" cant understand why "it" got so lucky. ofcourse, luck would mean that he was actually around before being born to be placed at random places and THEN it happened to end up in that oppurtune place. which is wrong ofcourse, only one plant cud grow in that area, and that plant WAS it and "it" came to be because that one seed took root there.

as for the evolution statistics, you are not only misinformed, you are also being hypocritical and quoting only from creationist propganda. according to the christian mythos, exactly TWO human beings are responsible for the genetic code of the entire human race. now how do you account for skin colour/physicality/height/fatial and body features/body heair etc CHANGING to fit the needs of the surrounding as people begin to populate all corners of the earth?!!?!!?! {even assuming it was 4-6 thousand years ago that the world was made} see then creationists go on to say that it is microevolution. but even if you inevitably have to admit that, you are COMPLETELY destroying the argument of dr carl sagan! as you have ACCEPTED that evolution CAN infact account for significantly beneficialchanges in the genome in just a few thousand years{as opposed to the billions of years this earth has beem around with favourable habitat}. {and if ou further beleive in the 4-6 thousand year old earth than you are fastening the rate of OBSERVABLE evolution up a thousand fold}. so it is EXTREMELY hypocritical to deny evolution by quoting extracts saying that the probability for evolution producing us is zero even in billions of years and then also accepting micro evolution and the genesis version of events with adam and eve.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
predictability and quantifyability is a constant inside AND outside this universe in the entire multiverse so yes it does for a FACT. it isnt organised or finely tuned, these words have no meaning, you only find this reality organised and finely tuned because your only familiar with this one, the consistancy of the fundamental constants is true in ALL universe, even when they are different from ours, so they are JUST as fine tuned and ORGANISED as ours. s as for the last part, WE werent born IN the universe or just happened to be PUT in it{as your mind reasons based on christian/egotistical ideas} we are born OF it. and only the universe having the proper constants would have born life. your argument fails because you are thinking that we sumhow exist seperately from this universe and then you go on to question the probability of the chance that we would be born into sumthing that woul sustain us so well. the point is you didnt EXIST before or outside this universe, this universe bore you BECAUSE it had the constants to sustain you, there is no coincidence here.

your analogy is similar to a single plant growing surrounded by a hostile lifeless desert in the only place which had water dripping from a rock and a tiny shade. who question whether sum1 specifically created it, because "it" cant understand why "it" got so lucky. ofcourse, luck would mean that he was actually around before being born to be placed at random places and THEN it happened to end up in that oppurtune place. which is wrong ofcourse, only one plant cud grow in that area, and that plant WAS it and "it" came to be because that one seed took root there.

as for the evolution statistics, you are not only misinformed, you are also being hypocritical and quoting only from creationist propganda. according to the christian mythos, exactly TWO human beings are responsible for the genetic code of the entire human race. now how do you account for skin colour/physicality/height/fatial and body features/body heair etc CHANGING to fit the needs of the surrounding as people begin to populate all corners of the earth?!!?!!?! {even assuming it was 4-6 thousand years ago that the world was made} see then creationists go on to say that it is microevolution. but even if you inevitably have to admit that, you are COMPLETELY destroying the argument of dr carl sagan! as you have ACCEPTED that evolution CAN infact account for significantly beneficialchanges in the genome in just a few thousand years{as opposed to the billions of years this earth has beem around with favourable habitat}. {and if ou further beleive in the 4-6 thousand year old earth than you are fastening the rate of OBSERVABLE evolution up a thousand fold}. so it is EXTREMELY hypocritical to deny evolution by quoting extracts saying that the probability for evolution producing us is zero even in billions of years and then also accepting micro evolution and the genesis version of events with adam and eve.

But...there is no evidence that a multiverse exists.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

This isn't Spam it's filet mignon.

Question: Do springs wind themselves? Do dumb, unintelligent, impersonal, non-volitional quantum fluctuations cause the four fundamental forces, predictable, mathematically quantifiable laws (i.e. of nature), time, matter, and space to exist in a highly organized, life-sustaining, finely-tuned system?

What are the odds?

“The degree of fine-tuning is difficult to imagine. Dr. Hugh Ross gives an example of the least fine-tuned of the above four examples in his book, The Creator and the Cosmos, which is reproduced here:

One part in 1037 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 1037.” (p. 115)

Side note: Dr. Carl Sagan of Cornell University convincingly demonstrated that the probability of life arising through the slow process of evolution is for all practical intents and purposes zero (exceedingly, exceedingly improbable. Don't believe me look it up under Borel's Law. It is followed by two billion zeros).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But...there is no evidence that a multiverse exists.

but you brought up quantum fluctuations, which is direct evidence for a multiverse. 😄

Originally posted by King Kandy
It could easily be an accident. In fact the improbable event would HAVE to have happened because otherwise we would not be here to perceive it. Humans exist. The odds could be infinitely low that we exist and it would not matter. The event of the low odd justifies it's own existence.

Two billion zeros denotes incredible improbability.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but you brought up quantum fluctuations, which is direct evidence for a multiverse. 😄

But I don't believe that quantum fluctuations exist. Case in point: when was the last time a multi-million dollar lottery ticket appeared in your wallet out of nothing?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Two billion zeros denotes incredible improbability.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't think you understand what i'm saying, which is my fault because I wasn't making my point clearly. What I mean to say is that the fact that we observe the results of this improbable event justifies the fact that the event occurred, however improbable it may have been.

I believe that you are misinformed.

The exceedingly improbable event in this contextual discussion is the notion that this universe and all of its laws, parameters, forces, and phenomenon just caused and somehow, inexplicably, sustains itself--intelligently, with intellectual precision, wisdom, and immense power.

Our existence is not proof that the improbable occurred--through natural means/process--it is evidence that we exist by virtue of the will of the Creator i.e. through supernatural means/process.

Again, two billion zeros is a lot to dispense with and it explodes the probability that we could exist without divine intervention.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I believe that you are misinformed.

The exceedingly improbable event in this contextual discussion is the notion that this universe and all of its laws, parameters, forces, and phenomenon just caused and somehow, inexplicably, sustains itself--intelligently, with intellectual precision, wisdom, and immense power.

Our existence is not proof that the improbable occurred--through natural means/process--it is evidence that we exist by virtue of the will of the Creator i.e. through supernatural means/process.

Again, two billion zeros is a lot to dispense with and it explodes the probability that we could exist without divine intervention.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But I don't believe that quantum fluctuations exist. Case in point: when was the last time a multi-million dollar lottery ticket appeared in your wallet out of nothing?

but quantum fluctuation do exist.

wron analogy, which ive explained ample well. our birth wasnt a lottery because we werent around before it to put our names in the ballot, we only came to exist AFTER the winners forms were chosen and we became inevitable progressions of the forms which DID come to exist. RE read my argument.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You'd need some evidence that God is a viable option here because there could be third options we aren't looking at. You have admitted there is a probability that it was created by accident, even gave a figure for it. I have not seen any figure showing God is even in that realm of probability. The fact is that if you pull a red ball out of an infinite pool of yellow balls, babbling about how "improbable" it is is meaningless. Had the universe not been exactly on-point, we couldn't have known it was ever off-point. Hence, there was no other option other than for it to have occurred.

The beauty of mathematics is that it is unemotional, precise, and cuts straight to the chase. Math does not care what color you are, where you live, how much money you make, what car you drive, or how intelligent you are--it remains unbiased, impersonal, and objective in all situations. There is a reason that we can use math to determine the likelihood of certain occurences (affluent insurance companies depend heavily on mathematics, particularly statistics--that's why they are so profitable). With the same predictability and ironclad assurance, it can be maintained through the aid of mathematics that the universe did not come into existence through natural means/process.

It just could not have happened.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Two billion zeros denotes incredible improbability.

...but not impossible.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The beauty of mathematics is that it is unemotional, precise, and cuts straight to the chase. Math does not care what color you are, where you live, how much money you make, what car you drive, or how intelligent you are--it remains unbiased, impersonal, and objective in all situations. There is a reason that we can use math to determine the likelihood of certain occurences (affluent insurance companies depend heavily on mathematics, particularly statistics--that's why they are so profitable). With the same predictability and ironclad assurance, it can be maintained through the aid of mathematics that the universe did not come into existence through natural means/process.

It just could not have happened.

How many time can improbably happen in infinity? The answer is infinite. You are right, math is great. 😄

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The beauty of mathematics is that it is unemotional, precise, and cuts straight to the chase. Math does not care what color you are, where you live, how much money you make, what car you drive, or how intelligent you are--it remains unbiased, impersonal, and objective in all situations. There is a reason that we can use math to determine the likelihood of certain occurences (affluent insurance companies depend heavily on mathematics, particularly statistics--that's why they are so profitable). With the same predictability and ironclad assurance, it can be maintained through the aid of mathematics that the universe did not come into existence through natural means/process.

It just could not have happened.

Let's face it: every outcome for the universe could have happened. If things HAD turned out different and we HAD evolved into shlorkians, we'd still be talking about how improbable it all was. There's nothing special about the way things are now, it's just because we are living in the here and now that this outcome seems to be the "important one". This outcome was just as likely as any other one.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You admit that it could have happened. You gave an exact probability. The probability we have arrived where we are is 100%; we can see that with our own eyes. You have typed out posts about this topic, residing in a country on a planet in a certain solar system. We clearly did not evolve to be formless energy or aliens on the planet shlork. We are now contemplating an event that has already occurred and no amount of whining will change that.

Let's face it: every outcome for the universe could have happened. If things HAD turned out different and we HAD evolved into shlorkians, we'd still be talking about how improbable it all was. There's nothing special about the way things are now, it's just because we are living in the here and now that this outcome seems to be the "important one". This outcome was just as likely as any other one.

I did? I did? Uh...it is? We can? I did? But I don't believe in evolution. We are?

It could? Shlorkians? What did you do with those two billion zeros? There isn't? Really? It is?

“The degree of fine-tuning is difficult to imagine. Dr. Hugh Ross gives an example of the least fine-tuned of the above four examples in his book, The Creator and the Cosmos, which is reproduced here:

One part in 10^37 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 10^37.” (p. 115)

My mistake I failed to raise my power (in bold) with a symbol.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I did? I did? Uh...it is? We can? I did? But I don't believe in evolution. We are?

It could? Shlorkians? What did you do with those two billion zeros? There isn't? Really? It is?

Two billion zeros? Do you mean a one followed by two billion zeros?

Infinity/one followed by two billion zeros=infinity