Can you handle the Truth?

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I have to agree that did sound poetic. xD

...but then again, as I've said, as a Christian, I (or.. well, we, anyway) just have to take on a lot of stuff by faith. If God says that we have free will and he's not controlling us like robots, then I just have to have faith in whatever He said. 😄

All I read was "god tells me what to do," which, in my knowledge, is not usually a relationship used to describe freedom of choice.

Given this, I can conclude the presence of god is actually a hindrance on your freedom, or, at least, has no consequence.

If a man holds a gun to your head and tells you to give him your wallet, there are not many people who I know who would refuse his demands. This is not to imply that they at least have the perception of choice...they could refuse...but they don't knowing the consequences. I dont see how your god is any different than the man sticking you up. It’s the same in any law: if you act under coercion you are generally exempt from your actions. The lack of choice under such pressure assumed and you are exempt from any legal consequences to your actions.

In fact, carrying this further, it is only when you know/assume that the gun is not loaded or that the man really won't shoot you (ie god does not exist) that you are free to make a free (or freer) choice.

So, "God tells me and I believe" (forgive me for paraphrasing) is in fact a total lack of choice. No word in your statement implied that you are actively allowed to make a choice. It is described as an automatic decision. This process is not choice but rather a form of mental degeneracy propagated by one of history's longest incarnations of the telephone game (ie the Bilbe). You as a "Christian" (that was half quote-half sarcasm) essentially self-regulate yourself, based on your own personal fears (the man with the gun to your head/“soul”), to the point where you sacrifice your freedom. Of course, the kicker in all of this is that you claim that this in fact makes you freer.

If this was a government bogeyman (Bush/Obama) and you said “I just have to have faith in whatever He said,” you’d be beaten off the streets for supporting some sort of facist/communist/socialist/Soviet/Nazi (pick 2-3 and arbitrarily combine them for the full effect) form of totalitarianism. Yet, when you do this based on a 2000ish year old story written buy a culture that I will bet you vaguely understand (if at understand all) over 100s of years, not to mention 40-80 years after the events took place, it suddenly become an admirable trait to brag about on an internet movie forum.

Please forgive me for not understanding your logic, but “because” isn’t really a descriptive answer.

Originally posted by Ordo
Well, you really didn't answer why you aren't "free without god"

All I read was "god tells me what to do," which, in my knowledge, is not usually a relationship used to describe freedom of choice.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
[B](I guess that statement needed clarification, eh? sorry if it got confusing or sounds like an attack or... whatever it could have sounded like...)

well, the way I see it, with or without God, no one really is free... there are rules and regulations and stuff, you know? so you can't really say that you really are "Free"-free.

so.. your freedom is restricted. you could choose to go against the law and stuff, but consequences come with it. Kind of like how God does it; He let's you do your thing within boundaries.

I like how JIA put it - God is righteous and just indeed. And yes, as believers, we do His Will anyway. to some it might matter if they control their life or not, to me it sort of does - but I can't rely on myself solely because... well, I'm not perfect. why choose to live by yourself if there's a God who is greater above you?

And yes, I could do so otherwise. believe me, I admit that sometimes I have done otherwise - as I have just said I'm not perfect. Then I experience the consequences of what I did - God's discipline and all that. (But the great thing about it is, you can always return to Him and because He loves us so much, He'll take us back.)

And about the perception thing - it's what we believe in. I could see your point, really, but well, you just have to take on a lot of things by faith.

😬 I did. right there.

"why choose to live by yourself if there's a God" to make your decisions for you.

Thats not being freer...thats not making ANY decision whatsoever.

<>

Then all you say is you "could see [my] point, really, but well, [I] just" are wrong.

Sorry, but if soemthing doesn't make sense I find out why.

<>

So I dont really see how your response provided any answer.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, actually when we disagree with rules, we do tend to have a problem with it. Just because there's a rule does not mean it's right or worthy of being obeyed. And don't tell me you've never played a game where you changed the rules a bit because you liked them better that way.

Think about all of the rules that you grew up under and currently live subject to city, state, nationally, employement-wise etc. My point is we recognize almost universally that life is not without rules but yet when it comes to God we seem to think that His way does not apply.

God has revealed to humanity through His Word that humankind are sinners in need of the Savior Jesus Christ. That is not subject to dispute. Just like many laws that we live by everyday we just accept them and comply. But when God tells us in His Word that if we die in our sins apart from Jesus Christ we will be separated from Him we reject this. We contend, argue, fight, and resist this. But there are many things that we are told by the state or by our parents that we simply accept. God tells us something and we don't accept this.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Think about all of the rules that you grew up under and currently live subject to city, state, nationally, employement-wise etc. My point is we recognize almost universally that life is not without rules but yet when it comes to God we seem to think that His way does not apply.

Recognizing that comeone made a rule is not even close to the same thing as thinking it is good. There are plenty of city, state and national laws I'd like abolished or changed.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That is not subject to dispute.

I hate to break it to you, but its been a point of dispute for millenia.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Think about all of the rules that you grew up under and currently live subject to city, state, nationally, employement-wise etc. My point is we recognize almost universally that life is not without rules but yet when it comes to God we seem to think that His way does not apply.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God has revealed to humanity through His Word that humankind are sinners in need of the Savior Jesus Christ. That is not subject to dispute.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Just like many laws that we live by everyday we just accept them and comply. But when God tells us in His Word that if we die in our sins apart from Jesus Christ we will be separated from Him we reject this. We contend, argue, fight, and resist this. But there are many things that we are told by the state or by our parents that we simply accept. God tells us something and we don't accept this.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Think about all of the rules that you grew up under and currently live subject to city, state, nationally, employement-wise etc. My point is we recognize almost universally that life is not without rules but yet when it comes to God we seem to think that His way does not apply.

God has revealed to humanity through His Word that humankind are sinners in need of the Savior Jesus Christ. That is not subject to dispute. Just like many laws that we live by everyday we just accept them and comply. But when God tells us in His Word that if we die in our sins apart from Jesus Christ we will be separated from Him we reject this. We contend, argue, fight, and resist this. But there are many things that we are told by the state or by our parents that we simply accept. God tells us something and we don't accept this.

"...God tells us..." You are talking like a mad man.

^^^ ooh the irony... 😐

Originally posted by King Kandy
Life is not without rules, but fortunately we live in a democracy where we have influence over these rules to a degree. If we live in a place where one person makes and enforces all the rules and we can't do anything about it, that is basic tyranny.

I would think that the by-now years you have spent arguing with atheists would show you that that is in fact a heavily disputed article. BTW, how many stalls of horses did king solomon have?

This is completely false. Any politically-active person will object and try to change laws he disagrees with. I do not accept and comply to any law that is completely against my morals without a fight. Maybe you do but there are plenty of people who actually put thought into laws before they blindly accept them.

The point I am making is that rules exist and for the most part we do not argue with them. For example, we drive on the right side of the road in the U.S. I don't see anyone arguing or disputing this. We pay taxes to the federal government. I don't see anyone arguing or disputing this. We pay high gas prices. Don't see anyone going down to the local gas station and arguing with the clerk behind the counter about the gas prices. We just accept all of these rules if you would and comply. Why don't we give God equal time and respect? He says in His Word that there is no other way to Him except through His Son Jesus and yet we argue this.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
"...God tells us..." You are talking like a mad man.

God tells us in His Word.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Recognizing that comeone made a rule is not even close to the same thing as thinking it is good. There are plenty of city, state and national laws I'd like abolished or changed.

By and large there are facts of life that we simply accept. That is the point that I am making. Although we may not agree with the speed limit, paying taxes, driving on the right side of the road, paying high gas prices etc. we comply with these things.

But when it comes to God saying that there is no other Name given among men by which we must be saved we resist, argue, debate, and deny. But God is higher than our parents, our city, our state, our country, and this world as a whole yet we don't give His rules or will equal respect and time.

Originally posted by Ordo
I hate to break it to you, but its been a point of dispute for millenia.

Take a moment and think about all the rules you comply with (at school, work, home, your town, this country) how many of those things do you just accept?

[Illustration follow me on this] Your instructor gives you a syllabus at the beginning of the semester and tells you that there will be a midterm exam and a final exam. If you do not take them and pass then you do not pass the class. You have one of two options comply or don't comply. My guess is that you don't argue, fuss, resist, or contend. You either accept this or you drop the course and perhaps take the class with another instructor. The point is that there is no room for debate as far as the instructor is concerned. The instructor is just a human being and yet he/she has the authority to make the rules regarding how his/her class will be conducted and yet most of the students in the class will without hesitation, contention, or controversy comply with this rule.

God who is not a human being but the Creator tells us in His Word that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between Himself and humanity and that no one can come to Him except through His Son and we resist. God says that all we have to do is confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe that He raised Him from the dead and we will be saved--and we fight this. We choose to argue, dispute, wrangle, and debate God's rule but we don't contend with our instructor's rule concerning the midterm and final exam. We recognize that the instructor has the final word on the matter but when it comes to God we think there is room for debate or opinion.

We give the university professor more credit and respect than we give the Creator of the college professor. It is okay for the professor to lay down the law as it were but when God does it we object. Not one thing has God told us to do is burdensome or grievous for us to do. But we will stay up all night writing a 30 page paper for a man or woman without so much as a word of disapproval. I am trying to show you that we obey all kinds of rules all the time and comply with things that may not make any sense everyday without a problem. We just do it. But we have a hard time doing this when it comes to God and His Word. We jump through all kinds of ignorant hoops on our jobs, in school, at home, in life in general without any resistance.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

We give the university professor more credit and respect than we give the Creator of the college professor. It is okay for the professor to lay down the law as it were but when God does it we object. Not one thing has God told us to do is burdensome or grievous for us to do. But we will stay up all night writing a 30 page paper for a man or woman without so much as a word of disapproval. I am trying to show you that we obey all kinds of rules all the time and comply with things that may not make any sense everyday without a problem. We just do it. But we have a hard time doing this when it comes to God and His Word. We jump through all kinds of ignorant hoops on our jobs, in school, at home, in life in general without any resistance.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps college students do it because if they don't, then they are unable to pursue the profession that they wish to follow? I mean, that's why I put up with ridiculous amounts of homework from my classes. For one, I have to do it or else I'm kicked out of the engineering school and then must find a job to pay for shit. I also have to do it because it helps me develop a better understanding of the subject, which will be expected of me once I graduate and get a job somewhere as an engineer.

Professors hold a lot of influence over a student's academic career(mainly due to that whole passing and failing business), so obviously the student is going to do whatever is asked of them from the professor. I've never had to do "things that may not make any sense everyday..." but then again, maybe it's because I know what I wanna do, and so I understand the hardships I'm enduring to accomplish this.

Furthermore, you're comparing a college professor to an unseeable deity. I'm not showing up to my mechanics of solids class and hearing a voice in my head say "find the modulus of elasticity of material B." It's a real person standing there in front of me, who probably went through similar hardships to get where they are today. Just a personal opinion, but I find this to be a much more believable experience. Just my personal opinion, but If you really think that exposure to "gawd and his werd" is comparable in reality to this, then I must ask where you buy your kool-aid from.

Originally posted by Ordo
"why choose to live by yourself if there's a God" to make your decisions for you.

Thats not being freer...thats not making ANY decision whatsoever.

<>

Then all you say is you "could see [my] point, really, but well, [I] just" are wrong.

Sorry, but if soemthing doesn't make sense I find out why.

<>

So I dont really see how your response provided any answer.

I meant that why live without His guidance, if you could have it anyway. God has His rules and stuff in the Bible, but its up to someone if he would follow them. And since God knows all and is already perfect, why not follow Him instead of following the wrong choices I make? If I followed what He says, it would be according to my own will if I want to or not.

I have restricted freedom. I'm bound by the same laws as you are, but in my case, I chose to follow God.

I have nothing to lose, really, by following Him, real or not. But if He is real, and everything the Bible says is true... well, you would be the one who would sorta lose more than a lot...

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I have nothing to lose, really, by following Him, real or not. But if He is real, and everything the Bible says is true... well, you would be the one who would sorta lose more than a lot...

Pascal's wager is a terribly flawed augment. If I was a dick I would direct you to Cthulu's wager. But I'm not, so I won't.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Pascal's wager is a terribly flawed augment. If I was a dick I would direct you to Cthulu's wager. But I'm not, so I won't.

I think I've heard of the first one (not so sure. to be fair, I sorta just quoted that and paraphrased, so...) , the second one... errr no.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I think I've heard of the first one (not so sure. to be fair, I sorta just quoted that and paraphrased, so...) , the second one... errr no.

Pascal's wager:
If God exists you should worship him and follow the Bible because you might go to Hell if you don't.

Cuthulu's wager:
If Cuthulu exists you should worship him because if you don't he might rend your body and soul to pieces.

Charon's wager:
If Charon exists you should give a penny to the dead because if you don't they might wander the world forever, unable to move on.

Quetzalcoatl's wager:
If Quetzalcoatl exists you should sacrifice people to him because if you don't he might eat the sun and cast the world into darkness.

n's wager:
If n exists you should x because if you don't y might happen.

In other words Pascal's wager assumes that the only thing people don't believe in is the Christian god. In reality there are an infinite number of potential deities to fear and thus worship. If one were really to take the wager seriously you should worship the deity with the worst possible punishment.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Pascal's wager is a terribly flawed augment. If I was a dick I would direct you to Cthulu's wager. But I'm not, so I won't.

I wanna see it. Don't be a dick by not posting it 😛

Edit: thx

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The point I am making is that rules exist and for the most part we do not argue with them.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
For example, we drive on the right side of the road in the U.S. I don't see anyone arguing or disputing this.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
We pay taxes to the federal government. I don't see anyone arguing or disputing this.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
We pay high gas prices. Don't see anyone going down to the local gas station and arguing with the clerk behind the counter about the gas prices.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
We just accept all of these rules if you would and comply. Why don't we give God equal time and respect?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
He says in His Word that there is no other way to Him except through His Son Jesus and yet we argue this.