Can you handle the Truth?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Pascal's wager:
If God exists you should worship him and follow the Bible because you might go to Hell if you don't.

Cuthulu's wager:
If Cuthulu exists you should worship him because if you don't he might rend your body and soul to pieces.

Charon's wager:
If Charon exists you should give a penny to the dead because if you don't they might wander the world forever, unable to move on.

Quetzalcoatl's wager:
If Quetzalcoatl exists you should sacrifice people to him because if you don't he might eat the sun and cast the world into darkness.

n's wager:
If n exists you should x because if you don't y might happen.

In other words Pascal's wager assumes that the only thing people don't believe in is the Christian god. In reality there are an infinite number of potential deities to fear and thus worship. If one were really to take the wager seriously you should worship the deity with the worst possible punishment.

oh. Okay.

well, anyway, that's not really what I'm pointing at.. I'm pointing at I lose nothing if I follow God - He be real or not, and if He's real and you don't, you lose... well, a lot.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
oh. Okay.

well, anyway, that's not really what I'm pointing at.. I'm pointing at I lose nothing if I follow God - He be real or not, and if He's real and you don't, you lose... well, a lot.

And my point is that the same can be said for, literally, anything.

For example I might be God, by choosing not to worship me you could lose a lot when you die.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And my point is that the same can be said for, literally, anything.

For example I might be God, by choosing not to worship me you could lose a lot when you die.

oh, gotcha. *laugh to self*

well, then I lose, and you don't have to worry about me.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Take a moment and think about all the rules you comply with (at school, work, home, your town, this country) how many of those things do you just accept?

Very few. I think. However, don't imply obedience wias acceptance. I believe in assisted suicide, but you don't find me out there helping people die. I comply with the law but I do not accept it.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God who is not a human being but the Creator tells us in His Word that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between Himself and humanity and that no one can come to Him except through His Son

lol...sounds like a lot of hoops to jump through to say "I'm right"

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
We recognize that the instructor has the final word on the matter but when it comes to God we think there is room for debate or opinion.

There is no debate with the instructor because the class is a means to an end. I want a good paying job, that requires that I pass this class.

This, however is not a sincere CHOICE, which is what my conversation with Jaeh is about. The choice has a consequence that is so unacceptable that it ceases to become a fair choice, though technically a "choice" does exist.

That is the only issue here.

You're just defensive because I have questioned not only the legitimacy of your god, but also your arguments about your god. Thus, you are trying to change this conversation away from a question of choice to a question of ignorance. You then use that to preach.

Thank you for proving my point though. You wish that no one questioned your god. Choice is not involved in your (twisted) version of Christianity.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
And since God knows all and is already perfect, why not follow Him instead of following the wrong choices I make? If I followed what He says, it would be according to my own will if I want to or not.

This again, hits home perfectly.

Any choice you make that does not align with your conception of god is "wrong." Thats hardly a freedom of choice. Infact, it is complete LACK of choice. Every choice you have has only one acceptable outcome, defined and predetermined by your god.

Originally posted by Ordo

This again, hits home perfectly.

Any choice you make that does not align with your conception of god is "wrong." Thats hardly a freedom of choice. Infact, it is complete LACK of choice.

*tear* you know I'm called Jaeh! (facepalm for random childish comment)

okay, let me rephrase.

And since God knows all and is already perfect, why not follow Him instead of following the choices I make that might have bad consequences? If I followed what He says, it would be according to my own will if I want to or not.

better?

1. God didn't express all his important decisions 3200-2000 years ago. He didn't tell you to monitor your blood sugar and cholesterol levels...and yet you do. Likewise, he told you how to treat mildew:

Leviticus 14

35 the owner of the house must go and tell the priest, 'I have seen something that looks like mildew in my house.'
36 The priest is to order the house ot be emptied before he goes in to examine the mildew, so that nothing in the house will be pronounced unclean. After this the priest is to go in and inspect the house.
37 He is to examine the mildew on the walls, and if it has greenish or reddish depressions that appear to be deeper than the surface of the wall,
38 the priest shall go out the doorway of the house and close it up for seven days.
39 On the seventh day the priest shall return to inspect the house. If the mildew has spread on the walls,
40 he is to order that the contaminated stones be torn out and thrown into an unclean place outside the town.
41 He must have all the inside walls of the house scraped and the material that is scraped off dumped into an unclean place outside the town.
42 Then they are to take other stones to replace these and take new clay and plaster the house.

Yet I doubt everytime your socks get moldy you dont just WASH them with detergent.

<><><>

You're still missing the point.

1. If god knows all, he already knows the future, which is based on your decisions, hence they are already made.

2. I'm not trying to say you dont have a choice, but aside from the spiritual equivilant of a stickup. If you dont do it my way you suffer for eternity. Thats not a fair/free choice.

You said that without god there is no "freedom of choice". As we saw in point 1. an omnipotent god eliminates choice completely. even if you ignore that, point 2. still presents you with a unfair choice. Netierh shows how god garuntees free choice and how is absence eliminates it.

Originally posted by Ordo

1. If god knows all, he already knows the future, which is based on your decisions, hence they are already made.

I know this has already been said repeatedly in this epic thread, but to further the point[again], an Omnipotent and Omniscient God would already know if any particular person would be heaven [aka saved] or hell bound before they were born.

So from a Christian point of view, your life is preset for you.

well, for any Christian view with that of an omnipotent god

* never would a loving God condemn anyone to hell before they were born... hell - in the first place - is not intended for humans originally:

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"
Matthew 25:41

* hell was intended for satan and his minions... now, for us humans, God desires all of us to be saved:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
I Timothy 2:3-4

* as a Christian, i disagree that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, or rather the use of those terms attributed to God because it's not in accordance to the character of God in the Bible...

* i believe that God is the Supreme Being, the most powerful and almighty but there are things which God cannot do, example:

"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."
Hebrews 6:18

* i believe that God is the Supreme Being, the most powerful and almighty but there are things which God does not know, example:

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."
Jeremiah 7:31

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:"
Jeremiah 19:5

* this makes sense perfectly because God gave man the freedom to choose - free will - that is one of the reasons why God tests us:

"You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."
Deuteronomy 13:3

* eventhough God can read minds and hearts of man, what God does not know is the decision man will take before it comes to the mind and heart...

* knowing this, no one is really bound to heaven or hell... the Bible tells us some people which were of God in the beginning but was not saved in the end (ex: Adam, Solomon, Judas Iscariot) and some people which were wicked in the beginning but repented and candidates for salvation (ex: Zacchaeus, Saul/Paul, people in Nineveh)...

* yes, God did predestination because He wants all people to be saved, and it's up to us we want to obey in His words, we still have free will, we can choose to obey or disobey:

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;"
Deuteronomy 30:19

"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another."
Galatians 5:13

* God gave us freedom but He also gave a recommendation: choose life and do not make it an excuse as an opportunity for the flesh...

* the doctrine, "Once Saved, Always Saved" is wrong in the Bible because anyone who attained salvation can very much well lose it:

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
If they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
Hebrews 6:4-6

"They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved.
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."
II Peter 2:19-21

* a reminder from an apostle of Christ who preached the word of God for people to be saved:

"Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward."
II John 8

* remember, we have freedom, we are created upright but people chose not to obey God:

"Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes."
Ecclesiastes 7:29

* if we are to obey God, this is what would happen:

"A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps."
Proverbs 16:9

🙂

Whats all that?

Seriously, if I want to read crap I'll go read this case study on alpha1 antitrypsin disease thats due for seminar tomorrow. This is like quoting Ptolemy to prove the world is flat.

* no one's forcing you to read it... you can ignore it... 😉

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
oh. Okay.

well, anyway, that's not really what I'm pointing at.. I'm pointing at I lose nothing if I follow God - He be real or not, and if He's real and you don't, you lose... well, a lot.

Which, actually might be Christianity, so fair enough I assume.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But that's wrong thinking, then you'd have to go to the religion that threatens the worst fate if you don't believe in their deity.

Which, actually might be Christianity, so fair enough I assume.

I sort of meant that you still have a choice in what you want to believe in. The question now is, what is going to be the consequences of the belief. So, you want to put your faith in something that you really are certain of...

for me, it's Jesus Christ and God, so, yeah... I placed my faith in Christ. And its up to you whether you believe in it or not... That would be your choice. If Christ and God is not true, then I placed my faith in the wrong thing, it's going to be my loss (although I don't think I'd lose nothing if its wrong) and if you didn't, it's going to be your loss. It still comes down to what you will choose.

(this kinda goes for Ordo too, so)

Now you might say that it's unfair. Firstly, you still have a choice. its up to you whether to believe or not. then you might insist that it's unfair that God is the only way to paradise and such, that whoever doesn't follow Him goes to eternal damnation, and that's unfair.

but on another level, it is FAIR. But God is a fair and just God, because He gave a way out of damnation. And because He is fair and just, you receive punishment if you don't - because its your sin that is getting in the way.

and on another another level, it IS unfair. because if it IS fair, then everyone would be eternally damned no matter what because of the wrong stuff we did. We're not worthy, but God's grace gave us a way to get out of that prison that we're supposed to be heading into.

An illustration could be like a court. If a (FAIR) judge sentences you to punishment because you did something wrong, then you're doomed, right? But what if someone pays your fine for you? Then you'll get saved, right? That's kind of how it works. It's just up to you whether to accept the dude who wanted to pay your fine or not.

----

Ordo, what is YOUR definition of free will anyway? maybe if I understand what you yourself meant by free will I could try to explain better.

okay, on the point of God being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, well He is, but not in the usual interpretation. I think peejayd (peejayd, feel free to correct me if I say something wrong. 🙂 ) answered all of it. 🙂 but, to summarize, God is omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent, because compared to us, there are a lot of stuff (MORE THAT A LOT) that He can do that we can't. But, there are also stuff He can't do like lie, cheat, bad stuff and totally get a hold of people's minds, etc. because He is a HOLY GOD. My definition of omni+scient, present and potent = so awesome but GOOD AND HOLY at the same time. We as humans can't really grasp it. its not something that even God doesn't expect us to fully understand.

what it all comes down to, though, is Jesus is the only way to be saved, and that's pretty much the final thing.

----

I know it's pretty long, but it's not full of bible verses. if you want Bible verses to come with most of it, just look at peejayd's post. xD

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I sort of meant that you still have a choice in what you want to believe in. The question now is, what is going to be the consequences of the belief. So, you want to put your faith in something that you really are certain of...

for me, it's Jesus Christ and God, so, yeah... I placed my faith in Christ. And its up to you whether you believe in it or not... That would be your choice. If Christ and God is not true, then I placed my faith in the wrong thing, it's going to be my loss (although I don't think I'd lose nothing if its wrong) and if you didn't, it's going to be your loss. It still comes down to what you will choose.

But you said that if you are wrong you lose nothing and if I am wrong I lose a lot.

That is incorrect though. You may very well lose a lot if I am wrong, and I may not lose anything if I am wrong.

Also, if what you say about omniscience and omnipresence and omnipotence is what you really believe, I'd say that you misuse the terms, because that is not what they mean. It would mean that the god you believe in is just very powerful, he's just very many places at a time and he just know very many things.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But you said that if you are wrong you lose nothing and if I am wrong I lose a lot.

That is incorrect though. You may very well lose a lot if I am wrong, and I may not lose anything if I am wrong.

Also, if what you say about omniscience and omnipresence and omnipotence is what you really believe, I'd say that you misuse the terms, because that is not what they mean. It would mean that the god you believe in is just very powerful, he's just very many places at a time and he just know very many things.

...wait, what? I don't really understand what you were saying. I'd give that point to language barrier... but, if the next sentence after the incorrect one is what I'm supposed to be using as you say, then okay, let's go with it.

well, I don't really claim to know everything. personally, I coined that term because God is so unfathomable that that's the closes thing I could say, because "very many things" just doesn't quite cover it enough for me. but i agree, it can be misleading.

you should know though, that many Christians have different points of view on this.

and you should also know, that the one thing it all comes down to is Jesus Christ is the only way to God.

at least, that's from us, and that's what we believe to be the truth. (I can't really say its truth because.. well, you'd all say that it isn't and I've pretty much learned my lesson on this website.)

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
...wait, what? I don't really understand what you were saying. I'd give that point to language barrier... but, if the next sentence after the incorrect one is what I'm supposed to be using as you say, then okay, let's go with it.

well, I don't really claim to know everything. personally, I coined that term because God is so unfathomable that that's the closes thing I could say, because "very many things" just doesn't quite cover it enough for me. but i agree, it can be misleading.

you should know though, that many Christians have different points of view on this.

and you should also know, that the one thing it all comes down to is Jesus Christ is the only way to God.

at least, that's from us, and that's what we believe to be the truth. (I can't really say its truth because.. well, you'd all say that it isn't and I've pretty much learned my lesson on this website.)

Meaning if someone knows what you will do with 100% certainty it's not a choice, it's predetermined.

The first part was about your point that if I am wrong I will lose a lot (eternal soul), that is only true if the only two options are "there is no god" and "there is the Christian god", that is not true though, there are many more options, so that argument is not valid.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's fair enough, I think part of Ordo's problem is that if someone is all-powerful and all-knowing there is no free will for anyone else (perhaps not even him).

Meaning if someone knows what you will do with 100% certainty it's not a choice, it's predetermined.

The first part was about your point that if I am wrong I will lose a lot (eternal soul), that is only true if the only two options are "there is no god" and "there is the Christian god", that is not true though, there are many more options, so that argument is not valid.

well sure, that's what others say, but I'm speaking from my/a Christian's point of view, and i couldn't honeslty be totally objective, because it's from my POV. on the other hand, if you want me to be totally and completely and utterly objective, I'd have to forget the (fact for me) opinion that my God isn't the only real god, and I can;'t do that. So, it's valid from a Christian point of view.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
well sure, that's what others say, but I'm speaking from my/a Christian's point of view, and i couldn't honeslty be totally objective, because it's from my POV. on the other hand, if you want me to be totally and completely and utterly objective, I'd have to forget the (fact for me) opinion that my God isn't the only real god, and I can;'t do that. So, it's valid from a Christian point of view.

Yeah, but you understand that there are other possibilities even though you "know" that your God is true, right?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, but you understand that there are other possibilities even though you "know" that your God is true, right?

Yes. There can be other possibilities.

I have to point out though, that because my faith is steadfast in God, I won't look for salvation anywhere else. as I've said, I "know" that God is for real, so, yeah...

it all comes down to what is the truth, how do we know it and which one we would choose as the truth for ourselves (and if we are willing to put our faith in it). And for me, I chose my God now and the Bible (His word), because that's what I perceive is the truth, and what I see is the truth and what i know is the truth. I don't attribute it to culture or what i grew into, because I know people who have accepted Christ no matter what they grew up in.

I'd go into the whole I could see how it changed people's lives and stuff like that, but that's beside the point. *shrug*

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
Yes. There can be other possibilities.

I have to point out though, that because my faith is steadfast in God, I won't look for salvation anywhere else. as I've said, I "know" that God is for real, so, yeah...

it all comes down to what is the truth, how do we know it and which one we would choose as the truth for ourselves (and if we are willing to put our faith in it). And for me, I chose my God now and the Bible (His word), because that's what I perceive is the truth, and what I see is the truth and what i know is the truth. I don't attribute it to culture or what i grew into, because I know people who have accepted Christ no matter what they grew up in.

I'd go into the whole I could see how it changed people's lives and stuff like that, but that's beside the point. *shrug*

But that's the point, it's not just simply what could potentially be better for you, it's a search for truth, and since to me, it is pretty obvious that the Christian God does not exist, I will not believe in him (I can't really)