Can you handle the Truth?

Originally posted by Bardock42
But that's the point, it's not just simply what could potentially be better for you, it's a search for truth, and since to me, it is pretty obvious that the Christian God does not exist, I will not believe in him (I can't really)

yeah, and I accept that. I'm not happy with it (because I believe th my God is real and I want everyone to know and accept it, of course), but I accept it. I'm not here to try and change your mind or anything (that's not my mission here) - I'm just trying to point out what I believe in and am trying to defend it from misconceptions. But that's me, personally. I like defending stuff without going into fierce debates.

I do hope that you see the real truth someday though. 🙂

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
yeah, and I accept that. I'm not happy with it (because I believe th my God is real and I want everyone to know and accept it, of course), but I accept it. I'm not here to try and change your mind or anything (that's not my mission here) - I'm just trying to point out what I believe in and am trying to defend it from misconceptions. But that's me, personally. I like defending stuff without going into fierce debates.

I do hope that you see the real truth someday though. 🙂

And I hope you will.

Isn't it great when people of different beliefs have things in common?

Originally posted by Bardock42
And I hope you will.

Isn't it great when people of different beliefs have things in common?

yeah 😊

provokes questions why people just can't live in peace. ermm

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
provokes questions why people just can't live in peace. ermm

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
because I believe th my God is real and I want everyone to know and accept it, of course

...hmmmm...I wonder why.

This is in contrast to me, who just believe that a good number of people are just stupid. I dont hold this stupidity against them, but it gets annoying when its starts having negative effects on my life.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I don't attribute it to culture or what i grew into, because I know people who have accepted Christ no matter what they grew up in.

The converse is also true. People have rejected Christ no mater what thety grew up in.

Regardless, most people in the world reject Christ and MOST who believe in such things came from families who did. An exception does not nullify a really strong trend. If I tell you to grab a live wire and you get electrocuted and die, just because one person in 100 doesnt die doesn't mean "grabbing a live wire wont kill you."

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I like defending stuff without going into fierce debates.

To me, this just means you like saying and not thinking.

👆

Originally posted by Ordo
...hmmmm...I wonder why.

This is in contrast to me, who just believe that a good number of people are just stupid. I dont hold this stupidity against them, but it gets annoying when its starts having negative effects on my life.

The converse is also true. People have rejected Christ no mater what thety grew up in.

Regardless, most people in the world reject Christ and MOST who believe in such things came from families who did. An exception does not nullify a really strong trend. If I tell you to grab a live wire and you get electrocuted and die, just because one person in 100 doesnt die doesn't mean "grabbing a live wire wont kill you."

To me, this just means you like saying and not thinking.

the first point: I share my faith, I do not force people to believe.As I said, I believe everyone has a choice, and its up to you to believe or not.

2. Yes, I know, and I don't deny that.

Yes, I know, but that wasn't my point - my point is that people still do accept Christ from no matter where they are. And sometimes they don't. That's basically just what I mean.

3. No - I just meant that I don't attack anyone. I defend my faith by sharing my point of view in a manner that doesn't attack anyone. I just go and exchange opinions with people and answer their questions. Of course, sometimes their questions do make me think, but sometimes those questions just make me be more rooted in the faith. But, your interpretation, so *shrug*

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
okay, on the point of God being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, well He is, but not in the usual interpretation. I think peejayd (peejayd, feel free to correct me if I say something wrong. 🙂 ) answered all of it. 🙂

* ok, thanks...

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
but, to summarize, God is omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent, because compared to us, there are a lot of stuff (MORE THAT A LOT) that He can do that we can't.

* compared to humans, yes... i agree:

"But He said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."
Luke 18:27

* i just mentioned the technicality of it... 🙂

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
But, there are also stuff He can't do like lie, cheat, bad stuff and totally get a hold of people's minds, etc. because He is a HOLY GOD. My definition of omni+scient, present and potent = so awesome but GOOD AND HOLY at the same time. We as humans can't really grasp it. its not something that even God doesn't expect us to fully understand.

* agreed...

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
what it all comes down to, though, is Jesus is the only way to be saved, and that's pretty much the final thing.

* another technicality... i do believe that Jesus Christ is the way to salvation -> for us, Christians, because He is the savior of the church...

"For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body."
Ephesians 5:23

"He is the head of the body, which is the church. Everything comes from him. He is the first one who was raised from the dead. So in all things Jesus has first place."
Colossians 1:18

* but the Father is also a savior, in fact, He is the Savior of all people, believers and non-believers:

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
I Timothy 4:10

* Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except through Him...

"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 14:6

* however, in relation to that, no one can come to Jesus except the Father wills it:

"The Father is the One who sent me. And the Father is the One who brings people to me. I will raise up those people on the last day. If the Father does not bring a person to me, then that person cannot come to me."
John 6:44

* so basically, salvation comes from both the Father and Christ, They are both Saviors... 🙂

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I know it's pretty long, but it's not full of bible verses. if you want Bible verses to come with most of it, just look at peejayd's post. xD

* thanks...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Why do people get offended when you tell them the truth as it pertains to the Bible?

Spread the word on a manner of understanding of the general public as agnostics with a smaller idea of faith. I respect you JIA and your devotion to a belief system that advocates morals and safe practices (politics are ruining the looks of religion as I believe it has no place for it). But just understand where I am coming from here. As a catholic, I believe in my religious faith as just a mere faith that conducts us all into a good devotion that contributes to the way to live life at a better lifestyle with a philosophy of good morals. We all have different aspects and metalities of it, my friend.

God bless you. 🙂

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
the first point: I share my faith, I do not force people to believe.As I said, I believe everyone has a choice, and its up to you to believe or not.

2. Yes, I know, and I don't deny that.

Yes, I know, but that wasn't my point - my point is that people still do accept Christ from no matter where they are. And sometimes they don't. That's basically just what I mean.

3. No - I just meant that I don't attack anyone. I defend my faith by sharing my point of view in a manner that doesn't attack anyone. I just go and exchange opinions with people and answer their questions. Of course, sometimes their questions do make me think, but sometimes those questions just make me be more rooted in the faith. But, your interpretation, so *shrug*

1...and there is a very fine line between "I want everyone to accept this" and "you must accept this for your own good." A line often crossed in history. You have to understand both this and how it feels to constantly have a lie showved in your face. (You may not think it is a lie, but the majority of the world thinks it is).

2. Your wording betrays your motives. Of course they convert and sometimes they dont. More often they DON'T then convert. Christianity's conversion rates are often lower than other major religions and about equal to that of population growth. That shoudl tell you something...

3. I think its man people's interpretations. It may not be the whole story, but I think its part of it. I think its a fatal flaw of many religious people to say "well I dont see it that way, so its not that way." They all feel fracking entitled to THEIR opinion. Its a failure to see other pestpectives that is, to me anyway, why most religions (and many religious people) are simply....incapable of a larger perspective.

Originally posted by Ordo
1...and there is a very fine line between "I want everyone to accept this" and "you must accept this for your own good." A line often crossed in history. You have to understand both this and how it feels to constantly have a lie showved in your face. (You may not think it is a lie, but the majority of the world thinks it is).

2. Your wording betrays your motives. Of course they convert and sometimes they dont. More often they DON'T then convert. Christianity's conversion rates are often lower than other major religions and about equal to that of population growth. That shoudl tell you something...

3. I think its man people's interpretations. It may not be the whole story, but I think its part of it. I think its a fatal flaw of many religious people to say "well I dont see it that way, so its not that way." They all feel fracking entitled to THEIR opinion. Its a failure to see other pestpectives that is, to me anyway, why most religions (and many religious people) are simply....incapable of a larger perspective.

1. Yeah, I know.

2. Yeah, I know. But I grew up in a country in which most people do. And from other people's stories, I've heard this too (that most don't). But I don't get discouraged because at least we shared our faith... it's pretty hard to explain... tell if you want me to explain the I-am-still-not-discouraged pov, but I'm not sure if I could explain it without being biased... geez, my whole argument is biased.

3. I beg to differ, but if that's the way you see it, then alright. The way I see it, I still could see the other perspectives and other opinions, and I could see the possibilities of how they (might?) be real, but I still remain rooted in my belief because the other stuff goes against what i believe in. That's sort of how everyone runs - if you believe in something, you usually just don't let it go easy unless you're totally convinced another is right and yours is wrong. so yeah...

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
2. Yeah, I know. But I grew up in a country in which most people do. And from other people's stories, I've heard this too (that most don't). But I don't get discouraged because at least we shared our faith... it's pretty hard to explain... tell if you want me to explain the I-am-still-not-discouraged pov, but I'm not sure if I could explain it without being biased... geez, my whole argument is biased.

3. I beg to differ, but if that's the way you see it, then alright. The way I see it, I still could see the other perspectives and other opinions, and I could see the possibilities of how they (might?) be real, but I still remain rooted in my belief because the other stuff goes against what i believe in. That's sort of how everyone runs - if you believe in something, you usually just don't let it go easy unless you're totally convinced another is right and yours is wrong. so yeah...

2. If anything, your I-dont-get-discouraged POV is the hallmark of delusion. I, at least, think I understand that perspective (and its narrowness). It is common for delusional people to justify their delusion by narrowing the frame of reference to make them seem like they are in the majority.

3. If you accept a "truth" based on emotions, a really old, misunderstood book, and word of mouth...very little is going to be changing your mind. You're still thinking in terms of right and wrong; you will never accept another perspective unless they are right and you are wrong.

You can acknowledge/see that your perspective is a minority one, but you outright dismiss others because they (in your mind) are not "fact."

If you truely want to be accepting and open, you need to acknowledge that other positions are just as valid as your own

...

Originally posted by AngryManatee
Did you ever stop to think that perhaps college students do it because if they don't, then they are unable to pursue the profession that they wish to follow? I mean, that's why I put up with ridiculous amounts of homework from my classes. For one, I have to do it or else I'm kicked out of the engineering school and then must find a job to pay for shit. I also have to do it because it helps me develop a better understanding of the subject, which will be expected of me once I graduate and get a job somewhere as an engineer.

Professors hold a lot of influence over a student's academic career(mainly due to that whole passing and failing business), so obviously the student is going to do whatever is asked of them from the professor. I've never had to do "things that may not make any sense everyday..." but then again, maybe it's because I know what I wanna do, and so I understand the hardships I'm enduring to accomplish this.

Furthermore, you're comparing a college professor to an unseeable deity. I'm not showing up to my mechanics of solids class and hearing a voice in my head say "find the modulus of elasticity of material B." It's a real person standing there in front of me, who probably went through similar hardships to get where they are today. Just a personal opinion, but I find this to be a much more believable experience. Just my personal opinion, but If you really think that exposure to "gawd and his werd" is comparable in reality to this, then I must ask where you buy your kool-aid from.

The principle is still the same. You have a choice to make that could affect your destiny one in this life and one in the life to come. Both subjects have the final say about your life in both respects. Whether you see God or not is irrelevant and immaterial.

Originally posted by King Kandy
We don't argue about things we agree with, obviously.

That's because pretty much every sane person realizes there's no cause for complaint on this one.

If you never saw anyone disputing the federal income tax, you must not have looked very hard. There are a huge number of people who attempt to avoid paying it and feel it's evil.

That's because the clerk doesn't have any authority over this. You DO, however, here people argue about things the federal government can do to drive down gas prices.

Well for one, all the examples you gave are either things people actually DO dispute, or things that everyone agrees with. If god is accepted as real, then few people on this forum would agree that his policies are legitimate or good.

That's a different issue altogether. In that case, people are arguing about whether the word actually is from god. If god is infallible then there are many reasons to believe the bible could not be his word, as in the solomon example you have avoided discussing.

I was just trying to mak a point in the above examples. If you really want to know if God's Word is true then do what it says. Ask Jesus Christ to reveal Himself to you. I don't necessarily mean physically but He is capable of doing that. I mean through the Bible. Ask Jesus Christ to make you a new creation and give you eternal life and reveal that the Bible is His Word.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The principle is still the same. You have a choice to make that could affect your destiny one in this life and one in the life to come. Both subjects have the final say about your life in both respects. Whether you see God or not is irrelevant and immaterial.

Maybe for one such as you. I personally think that the source of this "final say" is a major factor in the consideration of its importance. Translation: I don't believe in what your god says (really more the way you interpret what he says), so I can't really consider it to be in the same sense as important as what my professors lecture me on.

Originally posted by Ordo
1. God didn't express all his important decisions 3200-2000 years ago. He didn't tell you to monitor your blood sugar and cholesterol levels...and yet you do. Likewise, he told you how to treat mildew:

Leviticus 14

35 the owner of the house must go and tell the priest, 'I have seen something that looks like mildew in my house.'
36 The priest is to order the house ot be emptied before he goes in to examine the mildew, so that nothing in the house will be pronounced unclean. After this the priest is to go in and inspect the house.
37 He is to examine the mildew on the walls, and if it has greenish or reddish depressions that appear to be deeper than the surface of the wall,
38 the priest shall go out the doorway of the house and close it up for seven days.
39 On the seventh day the priest shall return to inspect the house. If the mildew has spread on the walls,
40 he is to order that the contaminated stones be torn out and thrown into an unclean place outside the town.
41 He must have all the inside walls of the house scraped and the material that is scraped off dumped into an unclean place outside the town.
42 Then they are to take other stones to replace these and take new clay and plaster the house.

Yet I doubt everytime your socks get moldy you dont just WASH them with detergent.

<><><>

You're still missing the point.

1. If god knows all, he already knows the future, which is based on your decisions, hence they are already made.

2. I'm not trying to say you dont have a choice, but aside from the spiritual equivilant of a stickup. If you dont do it my way you suffer for eternity. Thats not a fair/free choice.

You said that without god there is no "freedom of choice". As we saw in point 1. an omnipotent god eliminates choice completely. even if you ignore that, point 2. still presents you with a unfair choice. Netierh shows how god garuntees free choice and how is absence eliminates it.

It doesn't work that way. What happened is that you and the rest of the human race are spiritually dead because of sin. You are dead because of sin albeit spiritually. Spiritual death is separation from God Who is living. Your sins have separated you from the living God--you need His life to become alive spiritually. You were born into this spiritual condition and the only way to reverse it is to become born again spiritually. Only God by His Spirit can make you a new creature in Christ Jesus so that your sins will be remitted and your spirit alive to God once again. You were born dead you must be born again spiritually. You are a spirit, you have a soul, and you live in a body. You are not your body your body is the house that your spirit lives in. Your spirit is dead i.e. separated from God. Jesus Christ is the mediator who brings you back to God so that you can have eternal life. Since all of humanity is born dead spiritually which is separation from God, we must become born again or risk dying in that state of spiritual death and end up going to the place of those who are dead spiritually (Hell). God does not want you to go there. Through Adam's sin in the garden humanity is born dead spiritually and destined for Hell as a result. It is not that God made man and said I will give him two choices follow me or go to Hell. Man through his own volition and sin separate himself from the life of God. Now all people are in that state and bound for Hell unless they get born again and reunited with God. So that is why there are these two alternatives not because God decreed that it would that way. Adam botched it for everyone. Jesus unbotched it. Now you can be alive to God again and bound for Heaven but Jesus is the Door and the Way in. If you don't want to get out of that state of death then do nothing. But it is not God's fault or will when a person goes to Hell. You knew there were only two alternatives after Adam sinned. And you still chose to die in your sins right? Can you see this?

Before Adam sinned there was only one state for humanity: alive to God spiritually. There was no need to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation because there was no death at this point. But after Adam sinned now there is death and it must be dealt with because it keeps a person from having a relationship with the living God. There is no death in Heaven so how can a spiritually dead person go there when the body dies? A spiritually dead person is cut off from God in a place calle Hell. But a spiritually alive person or born again person is alive to God and goes to be in His Presence at death.

Do you follow me?

No.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
It doesn't work that way. What happened is that you and the rest of the human race are spiritually dead because of sin.

I don’t see how someone can be spiritually dead.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are dead because of sin albeit spiritually. Spiritual death is separation from God Who is living.

You speak as if God was separate from the universe.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Your sins have separated you from the living God--you need His life to become alive spiritually.

This is simply recruiting propaganda in order to get more people to become Christians. Other major religions in the world use similar techniques, like for example Islam.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You were born into this spiritual condition and the only way to reverse it is to become born again spiritually.

This is a twisted form of Karma. This idea was most likely borrowed from the Hindu religion long ago.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Only God by His Spirit can make you a new creature in Christ Jesus so that your sins will be remitted and your spirit alive to God once again.

Your god seems to be very limited. My definition, a god would not have such limitations. I think it would be more correct to call your god a demigod.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You were born dead you must be born again spiritually.

I was born alive, and am still alive. I have a wonderful spiritual practice, therefore, you cannot correct.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are a spirit, you have a soul, and you live in a body. You are not your body your body is the house that your spirit lives in.

This is simply something you believe. You should let go of magic and supernatural delusions. They only lead to suffering.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Your spirit is dead i.e. separated from God.

You cannot be separate from a god, unless you are talking about a demigod.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus Christ is the mediator who brings you back to God so that you can have eternal life.

Jesus was just a man like the rest of us.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Since all of humanity is born dead spiritually which is separation from God, we must become born again or risk dying in that state of spiritual death and end up going to the place of those who are dead spiritually (Hell).

Heaven and hell are states of mind that living people experience. No one experiences death, because if they did, they would not be dead.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God does not want you to go there.

A God would be complete, and not needing or wanting.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Through Adam's sin in the garden humanity is born dead spiritually and destined for Hell as a result.

Adam and Eve are mythology, so you can’t talk about them in literal term, but only in symbolic terms.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
It is not that God made man and said I will give him two choices follow me or go to Hell. Man through his own volition and sin separate himself from the life of God.

But if this god is all knowing, then he knew the outcome of his action, long before man ever did anything. Therefore, the ultimate responsibility would be this all-knowing god.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Now all people are in that state and bound for Hell unless they get born again and reunited with God.

I feel sorry for you. With such an tormented outlook on life, you must really suffer.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So that is why there are these two alternatives not because God decreed that it would that way. Adam botched it for everyone. Jesus unbotched it. Now you can be alive to God again and bound for Heaven but Jesus is the Door and the Way in.

Limited thinking leads to extremism. Life is not black or white.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
If you don't want to get out of that state of death then do nothing. But it is not God's fault or will when a person goes to Hell.

According to Christian mythology, god created this hell. That would make god like a jailer. You could say a jailer is not responsible for the crimes that the prisoners committed, but a jailer is not a god. Again an all knowing god would have the foresight to avoid the need for a hell in the first place. Sense you have told me that this is not the case, then I can only conclude that your god made this in such a way as to need a hell, long before he did anything. That makes him responsible.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You knew there were only two alternatives after Adam sinned. And you still chose to die in your sins right? Can you see this?

No one “knew” this. This is something that is taught by people. A child that was never told anything about Christian mythology would not know any of this.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Before Adam sinned there was only one state for humanity: alive to God spiritually. There was no need to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation because there was no death at this point. But after Adam sinned now there is death and it must be dealt with because it keeps a person from having a relationship with the living God.

Adam is mythology, so you can’t talk about him in literal term, but only in symbolic terms. Therefore, there was no time before Adam, because that would lead to a paradox. If a christ was not needed before an event took place, then that christ would not exist. However, based on what you have said in the past, this christ was in the beginning.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There is no death in Heaven so how can a spiritually dead person go there when the body dies?

That is because heaven is only experienced by the living, and not after we die.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
A spiritually dead person is cut off from God in a place calle Hell.

Again, I don’t think a person can be spiritually dead. Spirituality is all about life, and has nothing to do with death. Unless you are part of a death cult.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But a spiritually alive person or born again person is alive to God and goes to be in His Presence at death.

There is so much wrong with this that I am not even going to commit.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Do you follow me?

I would never follow you.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I was just trying to mak a point in the above examples. If you really want to know if God's Word is true then do what it says. Ask Jesus Christ to reveal Himself to you. I don't necessarily mean physically but He is capable of doing that. I mean through the Bible. Ask Jesus Christ to make you a new creation and give you eternal life and reveal that the Bible is His Word.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I will, if you will ask Allah to do the same.

Why would I do that when the Bible teaches that there is only one true God? You have implied that Allah and God are not the same by asking me to do with Allah what I have encouraged you do with God (YHWH).