Muhammed- The Peadophile

Started by Punkyhermy24 pages

Originally posted by Eis
Actually, she does perhaps get to wrong conclusions at times but her knowledge on Islam so far proves to be much greater than Alliance's.

I do agree with Alliance though, that neither the Quran not any Hadiths explicitly condone honor killings.

Her knowledge of the religions is based on her personal, very biased experience with it.It should not be taken as credible information.

I respect Alliance's intent to at least attempt to get to the truth about something he is unfamiliar with. 🙂

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but it justifies other thinsg as well. For example their one hadith that talks about how Mohammed ordered two people to kill this guy that insulted him. Even if the Quran and hadiths dont state that honour killings are allowed you can see where they get the inspiration from.

And the same ideas were spread throughout the ancient world. You haven't a point.

I think I get what alliance is trying to say, and I predominatly agree with his points (if I have them correctly)

Basically, the argument might be phrased similar to the NRA's "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Only in this case, exchange Islam for guns. I do see some truth in this claim, and it would be foolish to outright claim that there are no personal or psychological issues involved in the mentality of those who do wrong things.

There is also the fact that unlike guns, Islam is not a tangible object. In the case of guns, people are by nature more aggressive and violent in the presence of guns than they in the company of a tennis racket or some such. Leonard Berkowitz studied this phenomina and claimed "The finger pulls the trigger and the trigger pulls the finger". Islam cannot be like this, because aside from religious artifacts, there is nothing physical or perceptable about it. Now, the argument could be that the artifacts could instill aggression in people like the gun, but I find that absurd. A gun instills aggression because it is commonly associated with aggression in our society. While I believe a proponderance of religious symbols in a society may foster a stronger polorized belief, it would certainly not foster aggression, unless your claim is that Muslims are angry because they see religious things that they believe in.

I think there also needs to be some teasing out of certain paths of argumentation. For instance, I would say that the influence Islam has on people to be violent is not really related to the influence Islam has on people treating women as property. Honestly, in the majority of human rights abuse cases, I would agree that ALL Abrahamic religions at some point promoted these things, and they were prominant during theocratic rule of Europe. However, the Western world secularized, finding these teaching to be out of touch with human decency, whereas in the Islamic world, during pretty much the same time as the American Civil Rights movement, there were women fighting against secular, Western governments for what we would see as their right to be oppressed under religious rule. The photography of Shirin Neshat is phenomenal for showing this. I think in this case there is a fairly high corelation between secularized and theocratic society and the practice of religious oppression, however, there are other theocratic societies that are not based on Abrahamic texts, that have very differant, if as strictly held, beliefs about the roles of men and women and human rights. Instances of these in my mind are many native and aborigional societies, the Norse (thanks Alf 🙂), Tibet, India. For this reason, I think the very specific beliefs of all theocratic Abrahamic societies are the cause of the human rights abuses (as secular westerns would define them) that are seen in the Muslim world today. The fact that the more secularized a Muslim country becomes, the more freedom their women have to enjoy autonomy also seems to indicate this.

Violence and religion may be a little more complex. While I do see Islam as a very strong motivating factor, that could easily be redefined as confrmity and authority rather than the influences of the faith itself. By this I mean, people are motivated to do violence by people they see as authority figuers and the disceminators of truth. I would consider this to be a stronger motivating factor than other socio-economic things, seeing that many "terrorists" are educated and have some degree of fiscal determination over their future. Not all of them, and many local suicide bombers I'm sure are easier to manipulate if they are in poverty, but in a case like 9-11, my understanding is that the majority of the terrorists were college educated. This shows there is a definate link between what people believe and how they behave. However, to claim that what these people believe is "Islam" becomes a mincing of terms. Wahhibist Islam certainly believes in Jihad and other violence against Westerners, though there are Western Muslims that are not interested in these things at all.

Saying "Islam promotes violence" to me is true, if a generalization of something that would take many paragraphs to explain. The most potent example, to me, comes from North America, and involves no violence whatsoever.

Andres Serrano took a picture of a crucifix submerged in a bottle of his own urine and called it "Piss Christ". Christians took great offense to this and wrote letters, lobbied congress, and so forth. All major media outlets still ran the picture, and it has never been controversial that they did this.

Fast forward to the recent problem with the Danish Cartoons. The only places where these pictures were published in North America were very local magazines and publications, +1 regional magazine in Canada's west. In many cases, even prior to the publication of these pictures, Muslims rallied accross North America, looking for their governments to condem the pictures and prevent that type of thing from being shown again. In Canada, there was even a case brought to the Human Rights body because of the western magazine publication.

all other issues aside, this is a clear display of how the religious beliefs of people can make them act in ways that are against the general decloration of human rights. There is a definate difference in both the actions and the intensity of that action between the Christians and Muslims in two similar cases. There was no violence, but holding anti-freedom of speech rallies in downtown Toronto is a pretty extreme thing for 21st century Canada.

Leonard Berkowitz - http://www.dushkin.com/connectext/psy/ch15/bio15b.mhtml
Shirin Neshat - http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=shirin%20neshat&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
Andres Serrano - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andres_Serrano
Piss Christ - http://www.artnet.com/artwork_images_423908876_165080_andres-serrano.jpg
Muhanned Cartoons - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
And the same ideas were spread throughout the ancient world. You haven't a point.

Buddhist terrorists? Yeah. Im also not saying Christanity isnt bad either were talking about Islam. Im also into heathenism and follow the philsophy of the vikings but I dont try to justify raping and pillaging. From my experience alot of muslims try to justify Mohammed actions when they were clearly wrong

Originally posted by inimalist
I think I get what alliance is trying to say, and I predominatly agree with his points (if I have them correctly)

Basically, the argument might be phrased similar to the NRA's "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Only in this case, exchange Islam for guns. I do see some truth in this claim, and it would be foolish to outright claim that there are no personal or psychological issues involved in the mentality of those who do wrong things.

There is also the fact that unlike guns, Islam is not a tangible object. In the case of guns, people are by nature more aggressive and violent in the presence of guns than they in the company of a tennis racket or some such. Leonard Berkowitz studied this phenomina and claimed "The finger pulls the trigger and the trigger pulls the finger". Islam cannot be like this, because aside from religious artifacts, there is nothing physical or perceptable about it. Now, the argument could be that the artifacts could instill aggression in people like the gun, but I find that absurd. A gun instills aggression because it is commonly associated with aggression in our society. While I believe a proponderance of religious symbols in a society may foster a stronger polorized belief, it would certainly not foster aggression, unless your claim is that Muslims are angry because they see religious things that they believe in.

I think there also needs to be some teasing out of certain paths of argumentation. For instance, I would say that the influence Islam has on people to be violent is not really related to the influence Islam has on people treating women as property. Honestly, in the majority of human rights abuse cases, I would agree that ALL Abrahamic religions at some point promoted these things, and they were prominant during theocratic rule of Europe. However, the Western world secularized, finding these teaching to be out of touch with human decency, whereas in the Islamic world, during pretty much the same time as the American Civil Rights movement, there were women fighting against secular, Western governments for what we would see as their right to be oppressed under religious rule. The photography of Shirin Neshat is phenomenal for showing this. I think in this case there is a fairly high corelation between secularized and theocratic society and the practice of religious oppression, however, there are other theocratic societies that are not based on Abrahamic texts, that have very differant, if as strictly held, beliefs about the roles of men and women and human rights. Instances of these in my mind are many native and aborigional societies, the Norse (thanks Alf 🙂), Tibet, India. For this reason, I think the very specific beliefs of all theocratic Abrahamic societies are the cause of the human rights abuses (as secular westerns would define them) that are seen in the Muslim world today. The fact that the more secularized a Muslim country becomes, the more freedom their women have to enjoy autonomy also seems to indicate this.

Violence and religion may be a little more complex. While I do see Islam as a very strong motivating factor, that could easily be redefined as confrmity and authority rather than the influences of the faith itself. By this I mean, people are motivated to do violence by people they see as authority figuers and the disceminators of truth. I would consider this to be a stronger motivating factor than other socio-economic things, seeing that many "terrorists" are educated and have some degree of fiscal determination over their future. Not all of them, and many local suicide bombers I'm sure are easier to manipulate if they are in poverty, but in a case like 9-11, my understanding is that the majority of the terrorists were college educated. This shows there is a definate link between what people believe and how they behave. However, to claim that what these people believe is "Islam" becomes a mincing of terms. Wahhibist Islam certainly believes in Jihad and other violence against Westerners, though there are Western Muslims that are not interested in these things at all.

Saying "Islam promotes violence" to me is true, if a generalization of something that would take many paragraphs to explain. The most potent example, to me, comes from North America, and involves no violence whatsoever.

Andres Serrano took a picture of a crucifix submerged in a bottle of his own urine and called it "Piss Christ". Christians took great offense to this and wrote letters, lobbied congress, and so forth. All major media outlets still ran the picture, and it has never been controversial that they did this.

Fast forward to the recent problem with the Danish Cartoons. The only places where these pictures were published in North America were very local magazines and publications, +1 regional magazine in Canada's west. In many cases, even prior to the publication of these pictures, Muslims rallied accross North America, looking for their governments to condem the pictures and prevent that type of thing from being shown again. In Canada, there was even a case brought to the Human Rights body because of the western magazine publication.

all other issues aside, this is a clear display of how the religious beliefs of people can make them act in ways that are against the general decloration of human rights. There is a definate difference in both the actions and the intensity of that action between the Christians and Muslims in two similar cases. There was no violence, but holding anti-freedom of speech rallies in downtown Toronto is a pretty extreme thing for 21st century Canada.

Leonard Berkowitz - http://www.dushkin.com/connectext/psy/ch15/bio15b.mhtml
Shirin Neshat - http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=shirin%20neshat&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
Andres Serrano - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andres_Serrano
Piss Christ - http://www.artnet.com/artwork_images_423908876_165080_andres-serrano.jpg
Muhanned Cartoons - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

Well its like this I think Islam helps to justify violence. I understand what Alliance is trying to say. One of his main point is that he blames Islamic terrorism on the West..now im not saying the West are perfect but he needs to understand that Islam tried to conquer the West long before Bush came into office, so to keep using that as an excuse doesnt work.

Furthermore he seems to kill himself trying to defend Islam but will say that Buddhists reject life because they dont deal with violence...that is a stupid statement and suggests he has a biased mind.

Also guns may not kill people but guns also dont have writings on them telling to kill people either.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Buddhist terrorists? Yeah. Im also not saying Christanity isnt bad either were talking about Islam. Im also into heathenism and follow the philsophy of the vikings but I dont try to justify raping and pillaging. From my experience alot of muslims try to justify Mohammed actions when they were clearly wrong

But honor killing in Eastern Asia? Very profuse. Along with Heathenist (sp?) cultures.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
But honor killing in Eastern Asia? Very profuse.

Honour killings to do with Buddhism?

Originally posted by RocasAtoll

Along with Heathenist (sp?) cultures.

Heathenism is the religon of the Vikings...... 😐

Originally posted by Alfheim
Honour killings to do with Buddhism?

Heathenism is the religon of the Vikings...... 😐

And my point is honor killing is not religious, but cultural.

Ya. I need to do better research. Sorry. Viking culture had honor killings quite alot.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
And my point is honor killing is not religious, but cultural.

Wait , wait so you are saying that there are alot of honour killings in Buddhist countries? My geography is a bit hazy on Eastern Asia.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll

Ya. I need to do better research. Sorry. Viking culture had honor killings quite alot.

This is the thing the Vikings were basterds just like everybody else, but im not going to try and justify it like muslims do.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Wait , wait so you are saying that there are alot of honour killings in Buddhist countries? My geography is a bit hazy on Eastern Asia.

I'm telling you honor killings happen all over the world, and is not a matter of religion, but culture.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
I'm telling you honor killings happen all over the world, and is not a matter of religion, but culture.

Well until you get me figures of honour killings in Buddhist countries and compare them to Buddhist countries im not going to take you serioulsy. Cant see that happening in Tibet I think they even have more than one husband to a women.

I also explained that eventhough the Quran may not say honour killings are allowed the rules can inspire people to think its ok.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
And my point is honor killing is not religious, but cultural.

Ya. I need to do better research. Sorry. Viking culture had honor killings quite alot.

how do you distinguish between religion and culture?

Originally posted by Alfheim

Well its like this I think Islam helps to justify violence. I understand what Alliance is trying to say. One of his main point is that he blames Islamic terrorism on the West..now im not saying the West are perfect but he needs to understand that Islam tried to conquer the West long before Bush came into office, so to keep using that as an excuse doesnt work.

he does? this is news to me...

me and him had a little back and forth a few pages ago and I got a much less extreme feel for his thoughts. I might have missed the boat.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Also guns may not kill people but guns also dont have writings on them telling to kill people either.

Thats the thing, that writing doesn't kill people either. It is the interpretation and actions upon those writings that man takes that cause death. Now, when those interpretations and actions become formalized into a religion that is passed along from person to person over many generations, sure, I will accept that the ideas themselves can help potentiate violence, and even act in its justification (or when people think it is ok to kill in the first place), but the ideas are not by themselves violent, simply because they are intangible and require, basically, the informed consent of a human to act them out.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well until you get me figures of honour killings in Buddhist countries and compare them to Buddhist countries im not going to take you serioulsy. Cant see that happening in Tibet I think they even have more than one husband to a women.

I also explained that eventhough the Quran may not say honour killings are allowed the rules can inspire people to think its ok.

Japan. Kinda an obvious one.

What about honor killings in India?

taboo, culture , customs = CAUSE

facilitater, allower, encourager, non condemer, = ISLAM

relegions arise from cultures and thinking, not the other way around. they are a way of imposing or reinforcing to a MUCH greater degree the already persisting norms.

{however that does also mean that in the places in which honour killings happen, islam is as much if not more to blame than the prevailing culture. as often it has become the axioms and the base culture itself has been partially taken over by the relegion}

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Japan. Kinda an obvious one.

I think the national relgion of Japan is Shintoism....I could be wrong. When I think of buddhism I think of Tibet.

Japan - observe both Shinto and Buddhist 84%, other 16% (including Christian 0.7%)

-CIA Factbook.

Hybrid religion maybe?

Originally posted by Alliance
Japan - observe both Shinto and Buddhist 84%, other 16% (including Christian 0.7%)

-CIA Factbook.

Hybrid religion maybe?

Well I would think the honur killings part comes from Shintoism since they dont have honour kilings in Tibet and the samurai were very oppresive.

Could killing yourself be considered an honor killing?

Originally posted by Alliance
Could killing yourself be considered an honor killing?

Whats the point of that statement?