Originally posted by Mr Master
The Phoenix is a primal force of the Universe,no different than any other Abstract below Eternity/Infinity.
"Phoenix is ONE of the Primal Forces"
"There is a Natural Order to Her being, as to yours and ALL Creation"
Handled with ridiculous ease in this past thread:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/313281_16-parallax-vs-dark-phoenix#post8199040
Originally posted by Bentley
In case you were wondering Galactic, you cannot speed blitz a reality warper, he controls time; if it was that easy to kill them Merlin would not have blasted the universe where the first Jaspers existed.
For Jaspers to be physically anything beyond human level he first needs to apply his mutant power to himself to enhance his attributes (e.g his durability, speed, agility, reaction time) Jaspers can either enhance himself by applying his power directly to himself specifically or he can create a reality warp an area of reality where he determines the physical laws and attributes of all within. To first enhance himself Jaspers must consciously activate his power with his very human reaction time and thought processing. Before he could blink an eye he could be taken out by an enemy with sufficiently enhanced reflexes and speed as long as he hasnt previously applied his power to himself or as long as the fight isnt taking place in an area of reality hes already warped.
Jaspers isnt durable or anything other than human physically as standard. As standard he is human physically. Jaspers' mutant power can only be expressed through the medium of reality, when taken away from reality, he still possesses his powers but he has nothing to express them through (In the same way if Pyro doesnt have access to fire or if Storm doesnt have access to atmosphere they are functionally just human) When Fury took Jaspers outside of reality Jaspers could no longer shapeshift, regenerate or possess enhanced durability, why? Because they are attributes he gives himself via his powers.
Jaspers 238 could only be stopped through the destruction of his universe because the opposing forces realised too late that he was a threat and he obviously would have used his powers to make himself indestructible within his reality before they made their move.
In a forum battle, unless the threadmaker specifies that the battle takes place in one of Jaspers reality warps then anyone with sufficiently enhanced reflexes and speed could take him out before he could render himself beyond any physical assault.
Originally posted by Bentley
You can say for example that a warper would not be able to harm the speed force since it is a concept. Jaspers can recreate the universe as if the speed force never existed, as he can make gravity disapear. In this case the victim is the Phoenix force.
Jaspers warps and reshapes whats already there. He twists reality into his personal vision. He does not create a brand new reality from scratch in a Big Bang fashion. He paints over whats already there and can build and create using whats already there. Jaspers' power is dependent on there being reality. The Phoenix Force is a fundamental force of reality. If it had no involvement in a reality then that reality would cease to exist. Jaspers could not remove the Phoenix from reality as he would cause reality to cease to exist and therefore render himself powerless.
Originally posted by Bentley
I can't say anything about your knowledge of the Phoenix force, but you don't seem to know enough of Jaspers to make a valid point.
I know plenty more than you think Bentley. You however were unaware of the thought processes behind my argument and your own answers suggest you in fact arent as clued up about Jaspers as you would have us believe.
I did not see any point in which you argued against my logic behind nullifying an universe to kill Jaspers.
If sending someone with super speed from the beginning would do the trick, then why nullify the universe? It makes no sense from a logical standpoint, Jaspers cannot be blitzed as he controls time, time is a part of reality. Address that first and I'll rip the rest of your comments to pieces afterwards, I cannot stand responses that are too long.
Originally posted by Bentley
I did not see any point in which you argued against my logic behind nullifying an universe to kill Jaspers.If sending someone with super speed from the beginning would do the trick, then why nullify the universe? It makes no sense from a logical standpoint, Jaspers cannot be blitzed as he controls time, time is a part of reality. Address that first and I'll rip the rest of your comments to pieces afterwards, I cannot stand responses that are too long.
I've already addressed your comments if you cannot be bothered to read an danalyse what ive written, then thats your problem, my points still stand.
Before Jaspers applys his power to himself he's human in terms of durability and reactions. As illustrated by Jaspers frail human form when he was taken outside of reality by Fury and left unable to express his powers on himself to make him anything other than human physically. Unless a threadmaker states that the match starts off within a Jaspers reality warp, then anyone with sufficient superhuman speed and reflexes could take out Jaspers before his human mind and reactions consciously willhis powers into action.
Saying why didnt Merlyn or the opposing forces kill Jaspers before he used his powers is like saying why didnt anyone stop Jean from going on the space shuttle to become Phoenix which would have prevented the destruction she performed as Dark Phoenix. Its like saying why didnt anyone capture and restrain Thanos before he recovered the Infinity Gauntlet. Because such PIS makes for good stories. If characters in comics were always so pre-emptive then comics would be a very boring read Bentley.
Either way, its canon that Jaspers is physically human before he applys his powers to himself. The point was illustrated by the Fury quite conveniently for my argument, therefore my point still stands.
Read my original post and comprehend it before replying. That will help things run alot smoother.
Thanks for your time.
Originally posted by Bentley
I did not see any point in which you argued against my logic behind nullifying an universe to kill Jaspers.If sending someone with super speed from the beginning would do the trick, then why nullify the universe? It makes no sense from a logical standpoint, Jaspers cannot be blitzed as he controls time, time is a part of reality. Address that first and I'll rip the rest of your comments to pieces afterwards, I cannot stand responses that are too long.
Even there, lets say Jaspers needs to reality warp not to be a fragile human. Lets say he does indeed applies reality warping to himself, then why didn't Merlin threw at him something that could kill him in that improved version? Are we to assume that Jaspers becomes inmune to nullification only AFTER the first use of his powers?
Questioning further: If Jaspers can in fact warp himself to be invincible as to be impossible to nullify, are we to assume that he had previous knowledge of this posiblity and thus he was able to improve himself? Or is it that 616's Jaspers inmediately added that clause to himself to protect himself from any outside power in the universe?
When does Jaspers become inmune to nullification in canon?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You have been constantly hyping up the Furys dimension hopping abilities and yet according to you the damage inflicted on Fury, (the damage which left him unable to repair himself without absorbing an old woman for energy) was caused by him travelling from one dimension to another?Either way this instance illustrates how the Furys durability and abilities are dependent on his very limited energy reserves.
The Fury's supreme teleportational capabilities increased dramatically towards the end of the saga.
And it wasn't from one Universe to another, it was across UniverseS.
🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way this instance illustrates how the Furys durability and abilities are dependent on his very limited energy reserves.
Negative,
it only proves how tough the Fury is.
And again,
this is BEFORE the Fury developed further.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Handled quite sufficiently in my Phoenix thread:
Same ol' self proclaimed victories.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Reality 15104 was a divergent future of 616 as you even agree in the thread I’ve posted a link to. Jean amputated this future and then healed the wound she dealt on 616 (by cutting away its future) by changing Cyclops of 616’s actions. If Jean cut away the future of a completely separate alternate reality then she wouldn’t have changed 616 Cyclops actions in an attempt to fix the damage as that would have had no affect on this alternate reality. She would have reached back and changed actions in the past of this alternate reality you imagine. You have already agreed (and quite rightly so) that 15104 was a divergent future of 616, it is one in the same way 616 Cables Askani future is a divergent branch off the main 616 trunk so if you think hard about this subject it’s not hard to see why your line of argument doesn’t make sense in the slightest.
As you wish.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Handled with ridiculous ease in this past thread:http://www.killermovies.com/forums/313281_16-parallax-vs-dark-phoenix#post8199040
😆
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
For Jaspers to be physically anything beyond human level he first needs to apply his mutant power to himself to enhance his attributes (e.g his durability, speed, agility, reaction time) Jaspers can either enhance himself by applying his power directly to himself specifically or he can create a reality warp an area of reality where he determines the physical laws and attributes of all within. To first enhance himself Jaspers must consciously activate his power with his very human reaction time and thought processing. Before he could blink an eye he could be taken out by an enemy with sufficiently enhanced reflexes and speed as long as he hasnt previously applied his power to himself or as long as the fight isnt taking place in an area of reality hes already warped.Jaspers isnt durable or anything other than human physically as standard. As standard he is human physically. Jaspers' mutant power can only be expressed through the medium of reality, when taken away from reality, he still possesses his powers but he has nothing to express them through (In the same way if Pyro doesnt have access to fire or if Storm doesnt have access to atmosphere they are functionally just human) When Fury took Jaspers outside of reality Jaspers could no longer shapeshift, regenerate or possess enhanced durability, why? Because they are attributes he gives himself via his powers.
Jaspers 238 could only be stopped through the destruction of his universe because the opposing forces realised too late that he was a threat and he obviously would have used his powers to make himself indestructible within his reality before they made their move.
In a forum battle, unless the threadmaker specifies that the battle takes place in one of Jaspers reality warps then anyone with sufficiently enhanced reflexes and speed could take him out before he could render himself beyond any physical assault.
Jaspers warps and reshapes whats already there. He twists reality into his personal vision. He does not create a brand new reality from scratch in a Big Bang fashion. He paints over whats already there and can build and create using whats already there. Jaspers' power is dependent on there being reality. The Phoenix Force is a fundamental force of reality. If it had no involvement in a reality then that reality would cease to exist. Jaspers could not remove the Phoenix from reality as he would cause reality to cease to exist and therefore render himself powerless.
I know plenty more than you think Bentley. You however were unaware of the thought processes behind my argument and your own answers suggest you in fact arent as clued up about Jaspers as you would have us believe.
I disagree with everthing here. 🙄
I addressed it before,
and I'm not interested in getting the last word in.
Originally posted by Bentley
Even there, lets say Jaspers needs to reality warp not to be a fragile human. Lets say he does indeed applies reality warping to himself, then why didn't Merlin threw at him something that could kill him in that improved version? Are we to assume that Jaspers becomes inmune to nullification only AFTER the first use of his powers?
For all we know Jaspers merely placed himself beyond all physical harm once he engulfed reality 238 in his warp. That must have been the case otherwise Merlyn and the other dimensional guardians would have taken him out when he showed himself to be a threat.
Originally posted by Bentley
Questioning further: If Jaspers can in fact warp himself to be invincible as to be impossible to nullify, are we to assume that he had previous knowledge of this posiblity and thus he was able to improve himself? Or is it that 616's Jaspers inmediately added that clause to himself to protect himself from any outside power in the universe?
Nope. Once again for all we know this Jaspers like his counterpart placed himself beyond physical harm once he unleashed his warp. Within his warp he does after all determine the rules of that area of reality.
Either way theorizing over the ins and outs of fictional characters thought processes is a useless exercise and is way off track from what was originally being argued, something that unlike this tangent actually has some relevance to the thread topic. The crux of the matter is that Jaspers needs to apply his powers to himself to make his human physicality superhuman as splendidly illustrated by Jaspers frail and very human frame once taken out of reality. With his human speed/reaction time unless a threadmaker states that the battle takes place in a Jaspers warp or that Jaspers has already made himself invulnerable before the match then many a character with superhuman speed and reactions could take him out before he became a threat. That’s the only point what matters here, diverging into the plot driven stupidity of the opposing forces is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Bentley
When does Jaspers become inmune to nullification in canon?
He isnt by canon. That was just Merlyns opinion because 616 Jaspers was more powerful than Jaspers 238.
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Fury's supreme teleportational capabilities increased dramatically towards the end of the saga.And it wasn't from one Universe to another, it was across UniverseS.
🙂
Where did Fury on panel show his teleportation abilities increased dramatically after this instance within this arc?
Traveling from London, to the moon, to the seabed, to alien worlds within the universe during his battle with Jaspers isn’t as impressive as dimension hopping, so please tell me, where did these abilities increase on panel? 😬
Plus where does it say that in the battle it was Fury doing the teleporting anway? 😕
From universe to universe, across universes it doesn’t matter, the result is the same, the supposedly amazing Fury was left a battered heap in dire need of sustenance doing something you’d have us believe he is perfectly geared to do…dimension hopping.
This instance highlights the fact that Fury is a physical being with limited energy reserves, who requires outside sustenance to keep its systems going.. It over-exerted itself, it ran out of energy, it resorted to absorbing an elderly woman to survive. Not good when you’re up against an energy being that wields the unlimited life force of reality
Originally posted by Mr Master
Negative,it only proves how tough the Fury is.
And again,
this is BEFORE the Fury developed further.
Later on the Fury didn’t demonstrate greater teleportation abilities to back your opinion.
Later on the Fury once again ran out of energy NOT after a high level cosmic battle involving energy manipulation of all sorts, but instead after a planet hopping shape-shifting hand to hand battle within 616.
The Fury’s ability to adapt and resist attacks is dependent on his energy reserves as demonstrated by its death at the hands of Captain UK who ripped it apart with her bare hands after its battle with Jaspers. (Such physical damage obviously something the Fury would’ve made itself resistant to in the past.)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree with everthing here. 🙄I addressed it before,
and I'm not interested in getting the last word in.
You addressed not a thing. I addressed your argument , you responded by reposting the argument I had countered, I foolishly took the time out to respond to that, you have now responded by dismissing my points and saying you’ve addressed them already.
Not how debating works I’m afraid. 😬
Originally posted by Mr Master
Jaspers/Fury takes out Phoenix in a curbstomp.Phoenix has absolutely NO chance of getting one win against Jaspers.
Beyonder beats Jaspers.
Jaspers major weakness is he needs reality to manipulate otherwise hes powerless. The Fury side of the merger is no threat to the Phoenix Force whatsoever, it cannot harm the Force in the slightest whilst theres a lot of attacks the Force could use to take it out, attacks the Fury hasn’t been shown to be adaptable to. Even if it had, as illustrated in this Jaspers story, the Furys ability to adapt and be resistant to attacks is dependent on its internal energy reserves which are far from unlimited. The Force need only remove the merger from reality or remove reality from around the merger and that deals with the Jaspers half. The Force then needs only to atomize the merger, transmute it or use any from a large number of attacks the Fury hasn’t been shown to face before and therefore would be very susceptible to.
Either way, energy can’t be destroyed, the Phoenix Forces firebird avatar can split itself into a multitude of fully functioning sentient parts(as we’ve seen most recently in Endsong and Warsong) be shattered, absorbed, re-channeled etc and it will just reform as if nothing happened:
It is pure, mutable, indestructible and immortal life energy and that’s all canon. It is not going to be destroyed, Jaspers/ Fury cannot win. Phoenix has many ways of killing the combo.
Game over.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The bio states that to use his powers on himself he must have reality to work with. His powers are initiated through thought.
You didn't answer my question brotha.
Do you have any proof, on panel, that Jasper's powers are ever dormant other than when he was removed from reality?
We both know the answer, I just want to read you posting it and then I'll resume being an impartial observer.
