State of our Nation...

Originally posted by FeceMan
Ya know, after watching the video, I'm liking how everyone is focusing on the "ZOMG JESUS" aspect. The creators of the video make an interesting point outside of that.

We live in a time when ethical relativism is glorified. Right and wrong are little more than an individual choice, and saying otherwise gets one labeled negatively. In fact, the only moral absolute that is extolled is that of tolerance, oftentimes bordering on the ridiculous. We've also become desensitized to violence and death. As morality has declined--or, to be politically correct, "been put into perspective"--violence in schools seems to have increased.

Now, does this necessarily mean that it has? No. Like Botankus said, the media today are pretty much everywhere at once, and we're there too--I don't have the statistics on school violence throughout American history, so I can't comment. Does this mean that the degradation of morality has caused a surge in school violence? No. Correlation obviously does not equal causation.

Do I think that bringing God back into the school system or allowing teachers to strike students or not handing out condoms is going to fix anything? No, I don't. I don't know what the solution is, to be honest.

But, maybe that is the solution. Maybe the problem today is one of spiritual warfare, of angels and demons. I can't say, and I'm not going to try to.

Best post in the thread.

It should be pointed out I suppose, that this was a rather red herring.

The video is aimed at Christians really, and people of faith who would ask themselves: "Why is God allowing this in our schools and with our young people now?"

And the answer for that comunity is that we've reaped we've sown by allowing too much crap to take hold in this country.

It's more of a call to arms than anything else, and I'm not ashamed to say that I got the video in an email from AFA, american family assoc.

I wondered what the secular crowds take on the issue would be, and if any of them might see it as our crowd does.

Unsurprisingly, you don't. 😛

But as Fece pointed out, it's because these things are more on the spiritual level, with a huge amount of warfare going on over this country right now.

If you don't believe in spiritual warfare, in angels and demons and God and the devil, then you would write these shootings and the general change of morality in America off to many various things, as has been done here.

Though I think some of the points are valid, in truth they are just the evidence of whats taking place right now on the higher spiritual level.

I was curious as to the secular response to a spiritual answer for the situation presently facing the country, and I got it.

Thanks.

As the discussion is being done in the School Shooting thread on a secular level, this can be moved to the religion forums or just closed if the other posters are pretty well done with it.

Originally posted by FeceMan
What do I believe should be in place, or what do I believe are in place?

Both I guess.

The video I posted explains the gun crimes more than sith did.

Originally posted by lord xyz
YouTube video

Originally posted by FeceMan
Ya know, after watching the video, I'm liking how everyone is focusing on the "ZOMG JESUS" aspect. The creators of the video make an interesting point outside of that.

Don't you think maybe that has to do with the tiny tiny aspect that that's the whole damn point?

Originally posted by FeceMan
We live in a time when ethical relativism is glorified. Right and wrong are little more than an individual choice, and saying otherwise gets one labeled negatively.

This is the base of the problem. The video falsely assumes that has come about becuase of the lack of publically funded Jesus camps. It's bullshit my friend. You know it. I respect your personal beliefs. But the operative word there is your. I pointed out that the video fails to mention many examples of school violence from the fifties and sixties, you know, those times most good christian folk call the "good ole days". Those glorious times where we were putting god on our money and writing him into the pledge of allegience.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
And the answer for that comunity is that we've reaped we've sown by allowing too much crap to take hold in this country.

You call it crap, I call it the law.

Originally posted by Devil King
someone's seen Passion of the Christ recently, eh?

We had the Scopes Trial a little over eighty years ago in Tennessee, were a man was prosecuted for teaching Evolution instead of Creation... It's like there's an assumption that violence didn't happen until the Butler Act was done away with in Tennessee.

Originally posted by Strangelove
😆 If I go through my whole life without EVER seeing that movie, I'll consider it a job well done

I wasted $9.50 and a good two+ hours of my life... Let me break it down for you.

1) We see Judas betraying Jesus and Jesus being arrested
2) Jews call for his execution
3) Pontius Pilot says he has no precedence to kill Jesus, no crimes were committed under Roman law
4) [Evil] Jews call for his death anyway
5) Pontius tries to dissuade them by saying I'll kill one man and free the other, Jesus or Barabbas (the rapist, killer, thief and killer of Roman soldiers).
6) [Evil] Jews still want Jesus dead over a known murderer
7) Jesus gets beat and wiped for 45+ minutes.
8) Jesus is crucified.

Alright, cool. I already knew all that, though. I was raised Catholic.

What a waste of celluloid ❌

Originally posted by Faceman
Well just turn on the news now a days and you'll see a more violent society than ever before. Better yet look up criminal justice statistics involving violence, and you will see that it is on the rise. Or just take a look at our own government's failed war over sea..

Voilent crime with guns has actually decreased by 20%. Gun violence on the news has increased 600%.

That's why it seems worse that it really is.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Voilent crime with guns has actually decreased by 20%. Gun violence on the news has increased 600%.

That's why it seems worse that it really is.

👆 😄

Originally posted by Strangelove
Alright, cool. I already knew all that, though. I was raised Catholic.

What a waste of celluloid ❌

Originally posted by FeceMan
We live in a time when ethical relativism is glorified. Right and wrong are little more than an individual choice, and saying otherwise gets one labeled negatively. In fact, the only moral absolute that is extolled is that of tolerance, oftentimes bordering on the ridiculous. We've also become desensitized to violence and death. As morality has declined--or, to be politically correct, "been put into perspective"--violence in schools seems to have increased.

The best part about this? Its wrong.

Moral relativism isn't the problem in these shootings, its moral absolutism. If you listen to these people, like Cho, they don't say that "the Christian god exists therefore I can go kill people." Cho directly compares himself to Jesus Christ, dying because of the sins of others.

Instead we hear about how THEY are wrong, "THEY are snobs, THEY are brats, THEY are hedonists."

"I HAVE to do this. YOU engaged me. The decision is YOURS."

"Thanks to you, I die, like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless"

There is no relativism in his mind, there is absolutism. 'These people are wrong. I am right.' THAT is the view that these murderers express. That sensation of being right, of being the ONLY right, gives them the balls to go out and shoot up a school.

If Cho had sat back and said, "you know what, these people are just different from me, making their own decisions for their own reasons," What justification does he have to kill them? None.

These aren't words of a man without morals. These are words of a kid who has morality so clearly defined that HE is the ONLY moral right.

So before you saunter off into your timeless bullshit of "morality is declining" and "desensitization to violence and death," which are separate points that I will debate you in on their own, think about what Cho's concept of morality was. Moral relativism breeds respect and tolerance for others. Cho doesn't have that. He has moral absolutes constructed (just like any other moral absolutes) around him and his goals. And he doesn't give a shit what anyone else thinks. THEY are wrong and this is THEIR problem.

Cho shows then dangers of moral absolutism, not moral relativism.

Originally posted by Alliance
The best part about this? Its wrong.

Moral relativism isn't the problem in these shootings, its moral absolutism. If you listen to these people, like Cho, they don't say that "the Christian god exists therefore I can go kill people." Cho directly compares himself to Jesus Christ, dying because of the sins of others.

Instead we hear about how THEY are wrong, "THEY are snobs, THEY are brats, THEY are hedonists."

"I HAVE to do this. YOU engaged me. The decision is YOURS."

"Thanks to you, I die, like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless"

There is no relativism in his mind, there is absolutism. 'These people are wrong. I am right.' THAT is the view that these murderers express. That sensation of being right, of being the ONLY right, gives them the balls to go out and shoot up a school.

If Cho had sat back and said, "you know what, these people are just different from me, making their own decisions for their own reasons," What justification does he have to kill them? None.

These aren't words of a man without morals. These are words of a kid who has morality so clearly defined that HE is the ONLY moral right.

So before you saunter off into your timeless bullshit of "morality is declining" and "desensitization to violence and death," which are separate points that I will debate you in on their own, think about what Cho's concept of morality was. Moral relativism breeds respect and tolerance for others. Cho doesn't have that. He has moral absolutes constructed (just like any other moral absolutes) around him and his goals. And he doesn't give a shit what anyone else thinks. THEY are wrong and this is THEIR problem.

Cho shows then dangers of moral absolutism, not moral relativism.

Well said. I agree

That's a bunch of crap there from Alliance. He's a nut job, that's why he did it. Relativist or absolutist, it would have happened just the same- nihilists can be very destructive indeed ('no morals, no consequences, why not kill if I feel angry?'😉. It's also an entieely false view of relatavists, that they live and let live with all those that don't agree them them. Hogwash. Nearly all relativists believe in laws and other moral judgments, they are just open to the possibility that those laws are not necessarily based on an absolute and unquestionable ground. Doesn't mean they do not passionately believe in them, enforce them, and condemn those who differ from them. And on the flips ide, nor do absolutists necessarily think that what they think is absolutely true and unarguable either- they simply think an unarguable stance can be found if you look hard enough. They don't claim to know it- that's a symptomn of religion, not absolutism in general.

After all, no sane relativist is going to look at what Cho just did and say "Well, that's what he believed in, so it's fine," and if one does, you are playing right into the hand of the religious absolutists. If relatavists actually acted llike the way Alliance implies there would be no society at all. To believe this is anything to do with absolutism because he says 'they' did this and that is intellectually bankrupt.

The guy was just nuts- and also rather stupid, smugly trying to justify his own destructive inanity in a self-pitying way. No need to complicate from there.

and he was a ****ing despicable writer. VTECH ought to have been embarassed that he was graduating form their writing program.

I agree with Ush, neither moral absolutism nor relativism are the cause of this....the guy was nuts, whether he believed that there are no morals so he can kill people or that there are morals so he is obligated to kill people is hardly different. No one (reasonable) says that all moral absolutists are great people nor that all relativists are mindless killers, there are extremists, criminals and other weirdos on either side of the spectrum...

Originally posted by Bardock42
I agree with Ush, neither moral absolutism nor relativism are the cause of this....the guy was nuts, whether he believed that there are no morals so he can kill people or that there are morals so he is obligated to kill people is hardly different. No one (reasonable) says that all moral absolutists are great people nor that all relativists are mindless killers, there are extremists, criminals and other weirdos on either side of the spectrum...

Very well said, Bardock.

Hope all is well.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Very well said, Bardock.

Hope all is well.

Mostly, thank you.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's a bunch of crap there from Alliance. He's a nut job, that's why he did it. Relativist or absolutist, it would have happened just the same- nihilists can be very destructive indeed ('no morals, no consequences, why not kill if I feel angry?'😉. It's also an entieely false view of relatavists, that they live and let live with all those that don't agree them them. Hogwash. Nearly all relativists believe in laws and other moral judgments, they are just open to the possibility that those laws are not necessarily based on an absolute and unquestionable ground. Doesn't mean they do not passionately believe in them, enforce them, and condemn those who differ from them. And on the flips ide, nor do absolutists necessarily think that what they think is absolutely true and unarguable either- they simply think an unarguable stance can be found if you look hard enough. They don't claim to know it- that's a symptomn of religion, not absolutism in general.

After all, no sane relativist is going to look at what Cho just did and say "Well, that's what he believed in, so it's fine," and if one does, you are playing right into the hand of the religious absolutists. If relatavists actually acted llike the way Alliance implies there would be no society at all. To believe this is anything to do with absolutism because he says 'they' did this and that is intellectually bankrupt.

The guy was just nuts- and also rather stupid, smugly trying to justify his own destructive inanity in a self-pitying way. No need to complicate from there.

How dare you challenge our competing camps 🥷

Originally posted by manorastroman
and he was a ****ing despicable writer. VTECH ought to have been embarassed that he was graduating form their writing program.

😂 I agree.

Relativism can lead to an absolutism which leads to bigotry.

This comes from the idea of tolerance - I will tolerate you rather than accept you and who you are.