Originally posted by TricksterPriest
....................MY GOD, HE'S COMPLETELY INSANE! 😱 He actually thinks Flash's rogues can beat him in a straight fight. Or that their numbers or skills make a difference. crylaugh And he doesn't understand the concept of PIS.Guys, stop arguing with him. It's another Xmeat, but with better spelling. 😆
Do you even read comics or just "learn" what happens in those by going to forums?
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
"I don't understand how... but somehow...everything on these forums comes from.....Superman."And Supes wins, regardless of what his haters say.
Oh yes, because thinking Superman will lose, its chalk to being a hater.
Ridiculous.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
..............😐 Stfu. We already proved why none of that will happen. And if Flash can't phase through him, what makes you think Vision can?
Probably the fact that either J`ohn and Vison use that ability way better than the Flash. And in a somewhat different way?
Oh wait. You dont know what i am talking about. Silly me.
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Funny thing is the bricks won't do shit to keep him busy.
Superman`s usual M.O tells a different story.
Remember, we are using the comic Superman, not your wet dream.
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
What's so hard to understand that given Superman's combat speed the bricks become non-factors..
The simple fact that most showings dont have them as non factors when dealing with him.
Because if we can use what characters "can do" then its easy. Hercules brings the Hydra poison and Hulk claps on the bat hard enough for his high end bullshits= Kal down.
Because those two "can do" that. But they usually dont. And its why they dont get to do it rigth on the bat.
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Sure some members might get the bricks back, but newsflash I told you Sersi, Mrs. Marvel & Vision would be the first 3 to go down given their versatility.
He also operates that way alot, doesnt he?
Originally posted by Bentley
He also has T,Vo, whatever thats supposed to do.
haha. Precious.
Calling for an ability no one really knows what it actually does. What are the battle applications to it?
Originally posted by dvampire
Superman wins. Speedbiltz, HV, CB, and repeat.
Team wins. Confrontation, distraction, magic, gang on, beating on, phasing thro, let him wake up, repeat.
Hulk alone can solo him in a slugfest. With Supes using the bulk of his powerset he wins the most of it.
But thats Supes going one on one with a brick. Here you two major bricks, plus a high eternal, plus fliers, plus a stealth guy and cannon fodder to keep him on tracks.
Now, sure, some of the team will finish the figth down or out, but definatly not all wich makes the Avengers victorious in the end.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I remember one fight against a Superman level foe where Hulk was prevented from getting angrier through purely physical means. Past that, I've never seen anybody put down Hulk in one shot before he could get angry. It would have to be one hell of a shot. He's been reduced to bones at one point and was still going. Only needed a few seconds to heal back. Granted, it could happen. Superman would probably require a John Stewart buster punch to do so. But that took time and concentration. Not much, seconds indeed. But seconds is enough for the rest of the team to take advantage of. This is especially so when you consider you have four more opponents whose durability would require such a shot.
I never liked the "PIS/we must sell a book" argument here. Because the very same people who scream PIS when Superman doesn't one-shot Mongul, are usually the same people who scream PIS when Superman one-shots Despero. It's a common opinion that many people share, but I don't care for it. My opinion on Flash getting stabbed with a sword is located here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/344165_86-superman-vs-thor#post8826209 But let's get back on topic.
More of the same. Superman fans don't think it is PIS, Darkseid fans do think it is PIS. Regardless, it happened on-panel. Back on topic, like the original poster said... so Superman has the strength to one-shot an opponent... how many times have we seen it done to a high-end durable opponent that instantly won the fight? Someone tried using Despero. But being bitten by sharks-level durability does not impress me. Someone tried using Lobo, but as we see, Lobo isn't knocked unconscious in the least bit. You all say he could, and on some level I agree with you. He can bring enough power to bear, but it'd take time. The allegation here is super-instananeous knockout? Come on now. Not a single scan was ever shown to substantiate such a reckless claim. We're just supposed to take your word for it? Please.
The same thing that happened to the Saturn moon. Besides the fact that he holds back his speed in the atmosphere to prevent collateral damage, Superman still does not have instaneous ftl acceleration from a dead-start like Flash. Even when bloodlusted and even when he specifically states he is not holding back. He's never shown to be able to do it in your typical battlefield setting. Indeed, there are more instances of him failing to meet such required speeds from a dead-start. Debates on both ends of that issue here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/362166_6-hulk-and-dr-doom-vs-superman-and-magnetoPast that, the instances we do see him torpedo into opponents with superspeed like Wonderwoman and Equus, we've seen them survive such attacks. I've also seen Hulk and Wonderman survive such attacks. So if you consider the torpedo argument while recognizing its limitations, we do see that the team members' durability is enough to withstand such shots whether or not you want to argue semantics about "relative invulnerability."
Now, if you want to give him some acceleration time for a moon-busting shot, fine. So he scoots out of our atmosphere, concentrates, focuses his telescopic vision to get a bearing and torpedoes down at the team. Seconds is really all he needs to do all that. Seconds is all the team members really need to defend. Sersi transmutes a dense adamantium wall out of thin air? Vision turns intangible? Same thing as the preemptive Hulk strike argument.
Their own speed may not negate Superman's speed advantage, but their numbers, durability and abilities sure can. Flash is faster then Superman, and the Rogues use their numbers and abilities to combat him. Are we to assume that our team wouldn't try the same thing? We all have to admit that Superman has comparable speed AND super-strength. Maybe that difference is enough? But at the same time, you must admit that this team also has super-durability, which Flash's rogues usually don't have. Consider: It'd take a significant amount of damage to lay the higher-tier durable opponents down for the count. That significant amount of damage will come at the cost of increased concentration and time. Such time is all the other characters need to mount a defense or counterattack, especially when you have so many bricks available.How long did it take Superman to speedblitz Mongul down for the count? AFTER forcing Mongul to exhaust himself, it took several seconds of speed-blitzing to do it. How long does it take for Superman to mount a moon-busting torpedo shot? Seconds at the least. Now on the team's side you have access to instant transmutation abilities, illusion-casting, telepathy and telekinesis, intangibility, energy absorption and projection, etc. If you can't think of a single way the team could use their abilities and numbers to withstand Superman's initial assault and/or counterattack, then you're just not thinking.
Or you just want the team to stand around for a minute or so while Superman does his thing to take out each and everyone of the high-end durable characters out. With that stipulation, yes he will win 10/10. Otherwise, think of your typical Flash fight against his Rogues and how they use their numbers and powers to give Flash a hard time even though they have no speed. Then again, apparently your attitude allows you to instantly dismiss many comics as PIS. That's sad, because in comics, opponents find pretty cool ways to fight off foes.
Team 7/10.
"That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability"
Think of the way you described Flash above, and the way the forum rules depict what he can do.
The scenario you're depicting is the team fighting in top calibre, and Superman holding back and not utilizing his powers that give him a vast advantage. Your depiction of The Flash is just the same.
On the forum, the characters don't hold back to figure out plot, the teams don't have the prep time to coordinate an attack properly, and to do one while in midfield with someone as Superman's supersenses, and huge reation advantage.. they'd fall into ruin even faster.
Originally posted by Juntai
From the forum rules.[I don't know how many times I have to post this to you.]"That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though [b]The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed
.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability"Think of the way you described Flash above, and the way the forum rules depict what he can do.
The scenario you're depicting is the team fighting in top calibre, and Superman holding back and not utilizing his powers that give him a vast advantage. Your depiction of The Flash is just the same.
On the forum, the characters don't hold back to figure out plot, the teams don't have the prep time to coordinate an attack properly, and to do one while in midfield with someone as Superman's supersenses, and huge reation advantage.. they'd fall into ruin even faster. [/B]
What i find most amusing is how you use what shoots your reasoning in the foot every time. By the forum rules, the characters dont hold back and use what they have at theyr disposal, even the abilities they dont showcase often, correct?
They also have no prep regarding the other party, correct?
Why then, its Superman given the "forum rules" backup and no prep, but the team isent? If no one holds back here, then Superman is still outgunned and he still holds ONE advantage over i dont know how many of the others. That is, still his speed.
Some examples of the Avengers team here presented at his best:
-Sersi has one shot Immortal Marvel Hercules, in two differnt ocassions. One with a psi attack and another with a single punch (after boosting herself up).
- At best She Hulk actually hangs with top tiers physically well enough.
- At best WonderMan has the strength to k.o Thor. Wich he did in some of his best showings.
- At best, Hercules while a ground brick has stood to Beyonder`s attacks, defeated a mind controlled Thor even when the guy was using his hammer, punched and shut a dimensional portal with his fists.
- Hulk at his best has punched time storms, clapped a cosmos dimension, one shot an asteroid refered as twice the size of the Earth, healed back from having his skin tored of him.
- Vison at his best has gotten the likes of Hercules and Juggernaut down simply by phasing thro.
The way you describe Superman its him at his very best and the ohers at theyr normal showings. In the end ts more probable that some of the multiple attacks gets to hit Superman more often, than his own gets to hit the team. This is a mismatch that leads to arguments that are the answer to "why" he is hated in debates.
Originally posted by olympian
Because heat vision surely worked against Thor *shrugs*.You also must have special editions that cleary show Clarc usually taking hero powerhouses in space with uppercups.
*shrugs again*
You should really hit your head in the wall. What does a scan of pre crisis Superboy matter here, exactly? Are you even on scheduale? Pre crisis is long gone and we are discussing post crisis. Hello?
Again, you are using an example of pre crisis Darkseid. Since the crisis Darkseid as been having problems with top tier treats as regular showings go.
You are not on scheduale here.
And no, he couldnt. Not all have weakness he would easily play with.
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! The last 2 aren't even my posts. But, I'll disagree with you about the first one. That is mine. 😉
I think one of the easiest ways to solve this is to break this down individually ie...Supes vs Hercules, Supes vs Sersi, Supes vs She-Hulk, etc, etc. And then, from a team concept formulate a "potential/likely" outcome.
What can each opponent do to Supes in one on one fight against a blood lusted Supes?
Vision?
Hercules?
Wonderman?
Sersi?
She hulk?
Hulk?
Mrs Marvel?
Originally posted by olympian
Oh yes, because thinking Superman will lose, its chalk to being a hater.Ridiculous.
Wow! You finally learned how to QUOTE people! Congratulations ol' chum!
Ridiculous is your "1 shotting Hulk, or the notion that Hercules has a snowballs chance against Supes."
Then again..hey...it's your logic...I'm glad I don't have to live with it. 😉
Originally posted by Soljer
😆 😆 😆Superman would beat the Hulk and Hercules simultaneously with both arms behind has back. Ten out of ten. 😐.
Behind HIS back.
That wouldnt happen in a comic book, however. Wet dream your way, tho.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Wow! You finally learned how to QUOTE people! Congratulations ol' chum!
Oh yes, some old chumps do learn new things everyday. I did since a year ago.
You just dont, for what i can see. You still think your toy character wins no matter what *rubs*
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Ridiculous is your "1 shotting Hulk, or the notion that Hercules has a snowballs chance against Supes."Then again..hey...it's your logic...I'm glad I don't have to live with it. 😉
Glasses must be needed: "1 shotting Hulk"? The hell?
About Hercules having a shot against Superman, he sure does. In a h2h type of match.
And here he also sure does, because its a team effort, hes not alone.
Originally posted by BobbyD
I think one of the easiest ways to solve this is to break this down individually ie...Supes vs Hercules, Supes vs Sersi, Supes vs She-Hulk, etc, etc. And then, from a team concept formulate a "potential/likely" outcome.What can each opponent do to Supes in one on one fight against a blood lusted Supes?
Vision?
Hercules?
Wonderman?
Sersi?
She hulk?
Hulk?
Mrs Marvel?
The thread isent about who can take him one on one, its about if they can take him as a team. The obvious answer is yes. And even more obvious when they also are in bloodlust mode and using everything they got as per "forum rules". The rules dont apply to one party only, and its exactly what your doing because its the only way Kal gets an actual shot.
Man up. Either they all are at theyr best or none is.
Btw, you DO have people on the team that can take him solo.
Originally posted by olympian
Glasses must be needed: "1 shotting Hulk"? The hell?About Hercules having a shot against Superman, he sure does. In a h2h type of match.
And here he sure does, because its a team effort, hes not alone.
Now now..no reason to try and be a grammar Nazi when you just learned how to quote. Take it easy, we don't want you to overexert yourself.
So now is "Hercules has a shot against Superman." Reminds me of a thread were Ben Grimm fought a Superman with his hands behind his back, no heat vision, etc etc etc.