The trouble with atheism

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok your thingy says athiest means godless.

Wiki says its more complicated...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Etymology
[9]

In early Ancient Greek, the adjective atheos (ἄθεος, from the privative ἀ- + θεός "god"😉 meant "godless". The word acquired an additional meaning in the 5th century BCE, severing relations with the gods; that is, "denying the gods, ungodly", with more active connotations than asebēs, or "impious". Modern translations of classical texts sometimes translate atheos as "atheistic". As an abstract noun, there was also atheotēs (ἀθεότη&#962😉, "atheism". Cicero transliterated the Greek word into the Latin atheos. The term found frequent use in the debate between early Christians and pagans, with each side attributing it, in the pejorative sense, to the other.[10]

for example atheist was seen as an abstract term...also it seems pagans and Christians called each other athiests.

thats the whole thing about language. You can reduce and manipulate it until the qualifications and definitions fit the point you are trying to make.

I could very easily postulate that every person on the planet is an atheist because they don't believe in a deity that I just invented. They are, in a very specific sense, atheists, depending on how you want to manipulate the term.

The question must then be, what does the word "atheist" represent when we use it in language. What real thing is it the symbolic abstraction for. And in modern times, it has come to be used to describe those who, for whatever philosophical tradition, do believe in a very specific interpretation of God.

To say that the lack of ideology represents a uniting ideology, again as I said before, makes the term ideology itself moot, but also would be akin to saying that not being American is a nationality. That is how ethnocentric your view on atheism is.

The only way "atheism" looks like a belief system is if you suppose that The question of God is one that deserves to be addressed by intelligent people. More than anything though, you are excusing the many different intellectual pathways to atheism and massively diverse ideological spectrum of beliefs that atheists have.

Furthermor even if you dont think that Communism is an example of atheism. According to some defintions of atheism Communism could come under weak atheism by default.

Its still seems to me what atheism is a matter of opinion. Hell the word didnt even seem to orginally mean neccessarily no-belief in god. Sometimes it was used as an insult and used to describe pagans.

srug

Originally posted by inimalist

The only way "atheism" looks like a belief system is if you suppose that The question of God is one that deserves to be addressed by intelligent people. More than anything though, you are excusing the many different intellectual pathways to atheism and massively diverse ideological spectrum of beliefs that atheists have.

EXACTLY! Well ok are you saying its a matter of opinion and its subjective?

Originally posted by Ytse
Well, I think we basically agree about the word "atheism" when it comes down to it. That ultimately the one word doesn't tell you very much about who someone is. And even in rigorous debate you have to very clearly define your terms so atheist could end up carrying all sorts of nuance depending upon the context.

absolutely

atheism is more of a "catch all" or even slander than it is a label that provides any information about someone.

There are lots of reasons I don't like the word, the whole definition thing is certainly one of them.

Originally posted by inimalist
absolutely

Though I would argue that at the most stripped down it nearly always (barring some pejorative uses) means that one doesn't affirm the existence of any god(s).

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermor even if you dont think that Communism is an example of atheism. According to some defintions of atheism Communism could come under weak atheism by default.

I don't get this analogy.

Communism doesn't make a claim about whether God exists or not. Marx wasn't so much an atheist as he was against the power and authority of the church and many communist regimes have institutionalized either religions that existed prior to the revolution or have adopted new rituals and symbols, making the party or leader into what in any other case would be considered a religion.

Communists are communists. It IS a belief system all its own.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermor even if you dont think that Communism is an example of atheism. According to some defintions of atheism Communism could come under weak atheism by default.

Its still seems to me what atheism is a matter of opinion. Hell the word didnt even seem to orginally mean neccessarily no-belief in god. Sometimes it was used as an insult and used to describe pagans.

srug

Originally posted by Ytse
Though I would argue that at the most stripped down it nearly always (barring some pejorative uses) means that one doesn't affirm the existence of any god(s).

In my understanding it is the denial of those Gods that is important, but thats such a splitting of hairs.

However, there a lots of both agnostics and atheists out there that would hate to be lumped together like that. They seem to have a lot of animosity for each other, which is strange and funny in some strange ways.

Originally posted by inimalist
In my understanding it is the denial of those Gods that is important, but thats such a splitting of hairs.

Well, I'm not saying it isn't important but that it could be accurate to say since both lack theism they are atheistic.

However, there a lots of both agnostics and atheists out there that would hate to be lumped together like that. They seem to have a lot of animosity for each other, which is strange and funny in some strange ways.

Probably because people have a tendency to generalize based on words like this.

Originally posted by inimalist
I don't get this analogy.

Communism doesn't make a claim about whether God exists or not. Marx wasn't so much an atheist as he was against the power and authority of the church and many communist regimes have institutionalized either religions that existed prior to the revolution or have adopted new rituals and symbols, making the party or leader into what in any other case would be considered a religion.

Communists are communists. It IS a belief system all its own.

Well in the sense that people are born atheist..forget it. Im sorry there are so many defintions of athiest im lost now. I just dont think people shoudl be saying this is how you should defin atheist.

Anyway its the opuim of the masses thing that implies that Karl could have been athiest. I think even if you were secular you wouldnt say that.

You seemed to kinda agree with me here.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but atheism seems to still have been one of the major points. Where did religon is the opuim of the masses come from?

Originally posted by inimalist
voila

Originally posted by ThePittman
As I have said before it simply means, as in the meaning of the word "without god". Now thought time people have given it many more definitions but the root of the word is the same. So how could the word “without god” be a religion?

Yeah thats just a translation. To understand what it orginally meant you have to see how its used and theres no clear way of knowing that. For example I think the word God comes from the old norse goth which meant God as in god with a small G it also refered to a tribe or a person, but you cant tell what it originally means just by translating it.

To truly understand what it means you ahve to see in what context the word is used and the word athiest even at the very beginning was used in different ways you cant tell what the true original meaning was. A translation does not tell the whole picture.

Marx after the age of 23 denied being an atheist.

Opium of the people was coined by theorists before Marx who were much more radically atheist than he, and Marx's use of the term relates to how religion as an organization manipulates people and forces them to suffer for mythology. He was very much against the power of the church, and not the idea of some deity existing. For this reason Marx is better know as an anti-authoritarian rather than as an atheist (which is strange considering how authoritarian communism is in practice)

Originally posted by Ytse
Well, I'm not saying it isn't important but that it could be accurate to say since both lack theism they are atheistic.

I just don't like that context

to say "lacking theism" in many ways assumes that theism is something to have or that it is the natural or default of man.

Not being a theist, I may just be overly defensive, but to use "atheism" to describe the lack of something just seems overly prejudicial and biased toward theology in it's definition.

It could be accurate, and I'd probably never try to correct someone on its use outside of a forum made for arguing with people, but ya, it just seems to me that the definition of atheism shouldn't be so conditional on "lacking" something. /sigh language.

Originally posted by inimalist
to say "lacking theism" in many ways assumes that theism is something to have or that it is the natural or default of man.

It would be curious if it worked the other way. How would you put it? Atheism and A-atheism? Hehe.

As far as I'm concerned it's just the way the language has grown and doesn't show any preference.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well in the sense that people are born atheist..forget it. Im sorry there are so many defintions of athiest im lost now. I just dont think people shoudl be saying this is how you should defin atheist.

Anyway its the opuim of the masses thing that implies that Karl could have been athiest. I think even if you were secular you wouldnt say that.

You seemed to kinda agree with me here.

Yeah thats just a translation. To understand what it orginally meant you have to see how its used and theres no clear way of knowing that. For example I think the word God comes from the old norse goth which meant God as in god with a small G it also refered to a tribe or a person, but you cant tell what it originally means just by translating it.

To truly understand what it means you ahve to see in what context the word is used and the word athiest even at the very beginning was used in different ways you cant tell what the true original meaning was. A translation does not tell the whole picture.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats a matter of opinion thats like saying death metal isnt music.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok please explain how Islam is an example of Monotheism and then explain how Communism is NOT an example of Atheism.

Monothiesm describes a type of religion. Islam is one. Athiesm describes a belief, that communism is not an example of.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Communism for starters.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh I see so because they have a different opinion to you there crazy. Arrogant? You also think Buddhists reject violence and chat bullocks about Islam but oh well.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok if you apply that to religon as well you would be consistent.

Originally posted by Alfheim
it doesnt create a false choice your reading too much into it.

He's saying what I made a thread on.

Certain atheists (as shown in video) which behave in the way theists do -

Atheism is not one of the ways of understanding the world - it is the ONLY way.
Theists are simply wrong/stupid/brainwashed - as few of them said in the movie.

Which sounds like the theists and their talk about God.

However, this person evidently had an agenda when he made the movie, so, it appears like he has carefully selected atheists who voice their opinion in the arrogant manner, implying that everyone else who is not atheist is stupid/brainwashed.

There are scientists, professors, thinkers...etc who do not discard the idea of God, or behaive in an argotant way towards anyone else who believes in God.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
He's saying what I made a thread on.

Certain atheists (as shown in video) which behave in the way theists do -

Atheism is not one of the ways of understanding the world - it is the ONLY way.
Theists are simply wrong/stupid/brainwashed - as few of them said in the movie.

Which sounds like the theists and their talk about God.

However, this person evidently had an agenda when he made the movie, so, it appears like he has carefully selected atheists who voice their opinion in the arrogant manner, implying that everyone else who is not atheist is stupid/brainwashed.

There are scientists, professors, thinkers...etc who do not discard the idea of God, or behaive in an argotant way towards anyone else who believes in God.

Theists are simply wrong/stupid/brainwashed?

I wonder what makes you write this? You have just classified all people who (intelligently and after careful examination and thoughtful process) come to the sound conclusion that God exists, wrong, stupid and brainwashed.

🙁

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

I wonder what makes you write this?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Theists are simply wrong/stupid/brainwashed?

I wonder what makes you write this? You have just classified all people who (intelligently and after careful examination and thoughtful process) come to the sound conclusion that God exists, wrong, stupid and brainwashed.

🙁

I am explaining what the people in the documentary are saying. I don't think theists are brainwashed, stupid or wrong.

Originally posted by inimalist
Marx after the age of 23 denied being an atheist.

Opium of the people was coined by theorists before Marx who were much more radically atheist than he, and Marx's use of the term relates to how religion as an organization manipulates people and forces them to suffer for mythology. He was very much against the power of the church, and not the idea of some deity existing. For this reason Marx is better know as an anti-authoritarian rather than as an atheist (which is strange considering how authoritarian communism is in practice)

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Theists are simply wrong/stupid/brainwashed?

I wonder what makes you write this? You have just classified all people who (intelligently and after careful examination and thoughtful process) come to the sound conclusion that God exists, wrong, stupid and brainwashed.

🙁