Originally posted by katelovespirate
actually, i rewatched that scene a bit ago and it looks more like Elizabeth DOES intend to shoot. not that she wants to kill will or anything, but she looks pretty determined to carry on with the plan. it's only the gun getting thrown out of her hand that actually prevents her from doing it.
I got the same vibe. I don't think she'd have gone through with it even if it didn't get thrown out of her hand but she was definitely aiming so she could take shot the second Will fell...and of course she wouldn't/couldn't kill Will but she's a person who does whatever necessary so she was waiting for a chance to shoot soon 'as he was clear'. I loved that too...no way she could bring herself to shoot. I think she'd like to kill herself afterward if she did.
Only one little splurge here before I get back to the topic. Elizabeth obviously enjoyed the kiss with Jack...not the act of kissing him and chaining him to the mast cause that would be evil but she does enjoy the kissing itself. Wasn't it said in the commentary that she both saves everyone and drowns her temptations? So if half her reason for killing him was 'drowning temptation' I'd say enjoying does come up in the process...it was described as the 'kiss waiting to happen' and a 'kiss of the ages' after all...I'd say the description says it all.
It probably wasn't the best kiss...I guess that was the wedding kiss as everyone says and the JE one is just the kiss I enjoy best but I do really think the JE relationship is misunderstood.
Ok! No more OT! I do love how Elizabeth understands Will's plan so quickly. Now I'm trying to be good so in exchange for all the JE rambling that made no sense and should be ignored...this is my list of fave WE moments:
#1: The prison scene in DMC! That was really intense.
#2: Aboard the Pearl when she just knows what he wants her to do with the riffle. Talk about understanding.
#3: He agrees to save Jack partly because she's so sad. That's so sweet considering he thinks she loves Jack.
#4: Sandbar in AWE! This part is one of my fave scenes ever. It shows the understanding between all three of them and especially WE and that ultimately it's better if they work as a team and don't betray each other every 5 seconds.
#5: COTBP scene in the Interceptor. A classic.
#6: the beach scene! That was really awesome...sad but still brilliant.
#7: This should have been higher on the list but it's awesome when they fight the Dutchman crew together. It's so perfect you almost think they had a choreographer 😄
Sorry that the AWE below deck scene doesn't make it into my list...it was a fantastic scene just not a personal fave.
Above or below decks on Interceptor--I absolutely truly from a sailing sailor loved the motion of the interceptor and the screeching full on brakes when they dropped the anchor. That would have shaken your great aunt Hattie's teeth. Awesome display tho, with the stern end of the ship just about coming out of the water.
Bye the bye, there is really a racing yachet with PotC sails!! there's a you tube vid where she is just flat FLYING--about 1/3 of the bow is coming out of the water and she's surfing like a mad thing!! Golly moses, you just get weak-kneed looking at her--I could barely breathe. OH so fine--she was according to one entry making about 38 knots over the water, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhBIG SIGHohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh groan. How fine
Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
I got the same vibe. I don't think she'd have gone through with it even if it didn't get thrown out of her hand but she was definitely aiming so she could take shot the second Will fell...and of course she wouldn't/couldn't kill Will but she's a person who does whatever necessary so she was waiting for a chance to shoot soon 'as he was clear'. I loved that too...no way she could bring herself to shoot. I think she'd like to kill herself afterward if she did.Only one little splurge here before I get back to the topic. Elizabeth obviously enjoyed the kiss with Jack...not the act of kissing him and chaining him to the mast cause that would be evil but she does enjoy the kissing itself. Wasn't it said in the commentary that she both saves everyone and drowns her temptations? So if half her reason for killing him was 'drowning temptation' I'd say enjoying does come up in the process...it was described as the 'kiss waiting to happen' and a 'kiss of the ages' after all...I'd say the description says it all.
It probably wasn't the best kiss...I guess that was the wedding kiss as everyone says and the JE one is just the kiss I enjoy best but I do really think the JE relationship is misunderstood.
the wedding kiss? really? oh come on. kisses on ships will be forever ruined for me by dmc... 😉
i still vote the liz/james kiss was the best in awe, because of the tension, surprise, and hotness...
Well in my honest opinion the kiss on the Dutchman was a bit too showy and decorated. It just seemed fake. It was a commercial kiss and I think it could've been better but everyone else seemed to think it was the best so I'm just saying perhaps it is.
IMO the best WE kiss was the beach scene. Best kiss in AWE was definitely James/Elizabeth if we overlook the fact that it was one sided and you know which I think the best kiss ever was so I won't even bring it up 😄
Nice kissing betwixt James and our Elisabeth... but the best I think not.
The wedding kiss, no kidding, should be a wedding cake topper. In fact, I need to contact the folks at PotC crafts--gotta be a way. It was a heart stopper--yes, sly sparrabethers slipping in your 2 cents worth I know your choice by heart. I love best the whole beach--I know they were parting and it hurts if I only think on that, every other thing there was love, love, love. One's too many, hundred's not enough with those kisses. Makes me happy to imagine
I really loved watching the awe ship kiss in the trailer *(and was really looking forward to it, as my comments at the time of the trailer will testify), but when it came in the movie, it didn't overwhelm me. honestly, i will have to remark again about the lack of chemistry between actors. On paper, I'm sure that whole scene would have won an oscar, but when it happened, the chemistry didn't pull through. in my humble opinion, anyway. but the idea of it is beautiful.
the thing about the beach kiss at the end of awe is, whilst it was very hot and well filmed from a good distance angle, it lost its charm for me because it was following one of the cheesiest most awful honeymoon sequences of all times... and that's NOT sparrabeth bitterness, either. plus, the mystery lingerie (where did it come from, in all that battle and war?) put me off...
The "lingere" is the under tunic for the heavier coat and armor. Mystery solved.
I happen to enjoy the honeymoon scene, especially since my knees happen to be a happy spot for me, and I was thrilled to see that Will knew enough to not ignore it.
In response to Kate about Elizabeth mentally raping men, Elizabeth did NOT do so to all the men in the films...Norrington and Jack were the ones she used and abused quite badly. Did she hurt Will? Yes. Did she mean to? No. She never used Will, never purposefully used his feelings for her as leverage against him, she never left him and she certainly never tried to kill him.
The only man Elizabeth wanted and loved in the film was Will. As for the descriptions go -- both from an author the writers quoted and complimented, and from the script itself -- they don't mean a whole lot when compared to what I see on screen.
I'm starting up a thread on the kisses later (if I can't find one already created somewhere), so I'll explain more in depth about why I think the Sparrabeth kiss is one big unhappy mess instead of the screen-melting lust-fest most people here think it is, and I'll explain why I find it disturbing that people like it. But that's for later.
Back to Willabeth and the wedding kiss -- I was thrilled when I saw it in trailers. I was even more thrilled in the theater. Elizabeth dominated that kiss. She grasped hold of Will and pulled him to her, and dang, it was a pretty long kiss. Honestly, I didn't appreciate the full background of the kiss until the third viewing. I was totally focused on Will and Elizabeth and that moment they were sharing.
And I'll tell you, the audience response to the wedding and the kiss was great. It still is, even now! First audience I saw it with, there were cheers and applause when they started to kiss, and there were some catcalls too. The cheers continued with every viewing, up until the last few I saw, when the audience had apparently seen it several times already.
I finally got into the dollar theater last night (the three screens its on have all been sold out for the past two weeks), and it was like watching the film for the first time all over again. Lots of laughter, cheers, and a few excited teenagers hopped up to give W/E a standing ovation. *ggg*
There's still discussion on whether or not the curse is broken, but the general audiences, at least in my area, are thrilled with the wedding, the honeymoon scene (I swear I heard several fathers/husbands clearing their throats -- you know the way dads do it when they don't like something), and the only part most people don't like are the ten years of separation.
So it was fun to go see it again and see how the audience still responded to Will and Elizabeth's marriage.
Miz Surreal44, yep you are on the money for my thinking--don't know that I have a choice other than following the action. Yes Elisabeth wanted to kiss Jack, she's a darlin' baby girl in that film and even though she knows Who she loves with all her young heart, she's there, she could be killed or whatever, she's stressing, and by goodness, she isn't made of stone. It'd be like starving and then you have all these different foods put out, you'll probably sample even if you go yuck later.
You might even imagine briefly that they are better than your mama's biscuits.
The DMC Jack kiss is passion, desperation, guilt, shame and necessity. She found a way to meet her needs and save her love. Elisabeth is nothing in this world if not passionate--she's bright, stubborn and hauls to the walls passionate. She's already stated she wanted to be married, she has feelings that are chafing her. She is pure in that energy. She loves Will, cares deeply for Jack--forces Will to dance a merry tune all their lives I would think, wouldn't give up Will this side of death. Can't help believing my eyes.
Just as Sparrabethers don't want Elisabeth to settle for Will, I don't want Jack to entangle his free spirit, this trickster must absolutely must remain free. Will he find his way home someday, yeah, maybe to Elisabeth or to his true love, who knows? Jack was older, you know he loved someone so very passionately before Elisabeth was born. Now that's his girl. She's the one he would have moved heaven and earth for, he's the one of whom she still dreams. That would be a hot, hot, heartbreaking pre-quel.
Sorry so long winded--I have tried and tried, read lots of Sparrabeth lit and when the relationship hinges on that kiss, it feels forced. When she turns to Jack for other reasons, it's better in my heart, I can see it better.
oh gracious heavens. what this boils down to is that some people prefer the idea of Will, a stable guy who's loved you his whole life, and some people prefer Jack, the thrill of adventure. so there. i don't think it gets anymore clear than that.
i dont know why people liking the j/e kiss should disturb you, when it speaks deeply to someone. it all just boils down to different personalities.
and i have to disagree and say Elizabeth used all the men. She uses norri's poor heart and emotions to save will, uses jack's weakness to get off the island, exploits her father's love of her to get her way, manipulates barbossa into giving her information, tricks sao into thinking she's someone she's not, uses her body to kill jack and save herself, harshly ignores will, etc etc ad infinitum. the point is, she's a pirate. she uses people, she uses dishonorable methods to get what she wants. that's who she is, and how her character works.
Pax please--not disturbed by people liking the J/E kiss--hell I like the J/E kiss, I don't think it means what other folks think it means--that's all. I don't see it as a platform for the next phase of a relationship. That thinking is worth exactly what you paid for it, nothing, it's just this one user's opinion. We all know there's more opinons out there than mine. I am enjoying this venue so much becos there are so many opinions, like Baskin Robbins of movie whachathink.
Ah, Elisabeth as manipulating female--I would venture to name her "pirate", ever so much nicer than what women who do what has to be done usually get called, doncha think? (can you say Scarlett O'Hara) Elisabeth is grand at what she does--no problem there. She don't back up from it, she don't deny it, she represents like a big dog. She doesn't get squeamish and pretend like she didn't be pirate when it served her. She doesn't be falsely modest and say, 'oh, no, thanks, you be the pirate king. I could never be the pirate king'. On the other hand, I don't see her waking up every morning, going 'oh goody, who can I betray today?'. Much like Popeye, my hero, Elisabeth yamwhatsheyam.
I don't know that I see Will as stable--he's in love for pity's sake with this wild woman who never once says, honey, the ocean air is making my hair flat, let's just go home and I miss my bidet. He's trying to talk to/reason with a convicted felon he just prevented from hanging who is generally high a good deal of the time, possessing motives most can't follow and he has chosen for his work environment either the tempestuous sea where really bad people/monsters are trying to kill him or a blasting hot forge in the screaming CARIBBEAN. Somehow, Will's choices are not registering very highly on my stable meter. Stable is like I'm the gov--I'm staying the gov. and I will somehow control my very wild daughter who doesn't care about her coiffure. Will's a man on a mission--the a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do mission, still....adventure, it's not only Jack anymore.
Jack's exotic, grant you that in a New York minute. Jack's likely to get himself into a bind simply by standing there, gytiaNYm. Jack's got this little side glance, look up at you flirty eye thing going on like he knows! what color 'wears you have on and if it snaps in the front or back. Overt, gytiaNYm. Sexy, kind, too cool, gytiaNYm. Adventure, all by his onesies--not bloody likely luv. None of the brethern color in the lines. Most of the brethern will play nice, long as Teague's there with the Code.
An accord please if you will then, might we agree to continue to proceed to go ahead on with thinking and comparing notes, being our best, just as you have always presented your beautiful and gracious self? I like hashing and just generally using my synapses for something besides, 'the weather is here , wish you were beautiful'. I listened to your wonderful creations and I know you are like this too. Pax then? shall we have an accord?
Miz KatelovesPirate, I thought better of every syllable written after it was too late to say nothing(not my strong suit unfortunately). I am like Elisabeth in this regard, sometimes thoughtless in my doings becos of my passion. I just love it that there are all these varied thoughts and delicious comments. The turn of a phrase or spontaneity of statement is so intriguing to me, like your music without the melody to me.
You have extended a kind and gracious reply and I appreciate your words. I'll be quiet for a bit, see what I've missed while ranting away. Pax. Take what you can...
And give nothing back 😄 Quite right you are. I say we run up a white flag.
I don't disagree that the wedding kiss was the best for most people BTW but I just happened to think the beach one had more chemistry 🙂
Oh surreal I saw AWE in the dollar movies too. We were all fans. Screamed every actors name as s/he made an entrance and it was even a bit like a StarWars marathon where some one would shout something at the screen (Example: Will: "What's your choice?" Elizabeth+everyone in the theater: "Barbossa!) and I'm still a bit bitter (not AT ALL about Sparrabeth...and I'm serious but just a few things I think could've been better....not the script but the making) but it was loads of fun.
WE earned whistles here too!! But I guess it was only fitting that I had a few sparrabethers in the theater who went "AWWWW" at the goodbye scene.
I swear it was like a rock concert and everyone was singing along to the lyrics...erm...I mean the dialogue!
Sparrabethers, don't gang up on the willabethers here on their thread. We don't like it when people do that on the sparrabeth thread.
Oh, Liz. I could write a college thesis on her. Do I think she regretted not choosing James? Well, as a married woman, you don't regret the one you're with. You marry them for a reason. The movies (unfortunately, imo) decided that Will would be the love of Elizabeth's life and (wisely) make her a devoted fiancee/wife in addition to being a great warrior. In some ways, she reminds me of Zoe in "Firefly" and the movie "Serenity." If anyone's seen those, let me know because I'll want to get together.
Norrington: Elizabeth was groomed from Day 1 getting to the Caribbean to be James' wife. Gov. Swann really liked and admired him, and as unromantic as it sounds, parents in several cultures pick their children's spouses and it results in not only long-lasting marriages, but perfectly happy ones where the couple does eventually love one another. Swann knew that his daughter loved adventure and taking risks, but also wanted her to be safe and respectable. She would have had all those things with James, and I think James realized too that she wasn't your average submissive twit. He says she's become a "fine" woman, so that could mean anything to him. In COTBP, he obviously has the most mature love for her than the other men because he can let her go, happy that someone (Will) will love and protect her. Elizabeth, on the other hand, takes note that James is who she is "supposed" to be with, but that spark isn't there. COTBP implies it is because she loves Will and for the most part, that's right. But she never took the time to appreciate the things in James that we in the forum do. She acknowledges in the deleted scenes that he's a good man and, standing side by side on the deck, it seems like she's really thinking about if she can be happy with him. In DMC, there relationship kind of fizzled much like hers and Jack's did in AWE. There really wasn't much there except they were on decently good terms with each other and at the end James screwed them all. In AWE, Elizabeth understandably is hurt because she thought James was a good man and now he could have possibly helped kill her father? She says there's nothing he can do to earn her forgiveness, but with that kiss, I wouldn't call it one-sided. Elizabeth's feelings for him have definitely changed again. She's finally getting a glimpse of the passion in this man, something she probably thought he lacked. It calls back when she had new insights to his personality in COTBP where she (imo) decided that she could love him in time. That kiss won back the soft spot she has always had for him and she screamed and screamed when she saw him die. I think she regretted not getting to know him, but not marrying him.
Jack? I've written so much about her and Jack that I've gotten a little weary with doing it. The way I see it and will continue to see it is that sparrabethers had a valid point-- they saw something forming that could have been interesting, and it is interesting in and of itself. Here you have a man and a woman very in touch with their sexual longings that manage to (gasp) be really good friends. I think she loves him and I think he loves her and they've played around with just HOW they love each other, and I think they've settled into a very loving almost-sibling-like love at the end.
So do I think Liz has regrets about marrying Will? Not one bit. She will probably replay and replay all the events leading up to his death just to see if it could have been prevented, but she would never regret becoming Captain Mrs. Turner...uh, King.
MizWilloftheWisp, agreed, Elisabeth finally caught on about Norrington, he's the one man who started out manly and ended up manly--a cowboy up kinda guy.
I totally agree that Elisabeth would never have had regrets about marrying Will--after she married Will she was married through and through, women are like that I think. She had the freedom to be herself with Will. I am tired of the folks who think for some reason her life would have taken a nosedive into domesticity when she married will. I'd love to agree that men and women can be friends--men I have in my life that are my brothers-born-in-other-families, who are that close to me as a brother, who have know me for years in and out of relationships, with whom I have had many interactions, still have it in their minds that we are their aces in the hole so to speak.
Jack was standing there talking with Elisabeth about her intended and still was saying "two peas in a pod" in such a way, not as friend, but always with the unsaid "be mine". Maybe it's that man brain hard-wired competition thing, who knows. I truly believe Elisabeth sees Jack as a friend--I know she loves him as a friend. I bet dollars to donuts, Jack's still hitting on her, Will in the room or not. One word: pirate2.