So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

One of the issues I have with some perspectives of Christianity is the idea that we as a human race are naturally evil, that our nature is a "sinful" one, and that no matter what good we do in our lives, we are still stained with an Earthly Evil that God cannot allow into Heaven.

Instead of being percieved as a powerful race of beings who have the ability to transcend the impulses of survival and do a great many things (like Buddhism, Hinduism, some sects of Catholicism, and other religions/philosophies have), we are generally seen as a naturally wicked people who are unworthy of God's Graces, yet God will overlook our "disgusting ways" and our lack of worth, and indulge us with his generosity, saving us from an eternal torment which we all naturally deserve, if we accept Christ as savior.

This basically renders us powerless as a people, and demeans all our good actions and accomplishments as basically....worthless. We are a worthless people who are only worth something if God sees it that way.

There are those Christians, not all, but many, who beleive that we all deserve to suffer. That we, collectively, deserve no better. We do not deserve to be happy on Earth, only in Heaven.

There are those fundamentalists that see Hell as the only thing we truly deserve, eternal torment and damnation, and that to enter Heaven is to be spoiled with God's love, something we do not deserve.

What you do on Earth doesn't matter, because Earth is worthless. Your life means nothing, your joys, your family, your accomplishments.....nothing.....only Heaven matters.

***

Then there are those Christians, many Catholic, many Protestant, who escape that traditional Puritan-like beleif, and beleive that we all have God within us, and that we have incredible power, and that we can make a difference in this world, and what we do DOES matter here and now.

Universalist Christians, in fact, beleive we are all going to Heaven. A big stretch from traditional Christian thought. They believe in a God whose Love is non-judgemental, non-biased, not narrow - but wide. Absolute and truly unconditional, Ever-Forgiving, All-Loving, a God who only embraces our good, and understands our bad. A God who loves us for everything we are.

A God who does not want us to suffer, nor feels we deserve to ever.

Why is this Blasphemy to so many other Monotheistic Idealogies ?

Do some of you who beleive in God truly WANT people to suffer? Do you see suffering or punishment as an absolute necessity, hoping your deity will render out what you can't upon others ?

That's just unprogressive...why embrace suffering ? Why focus on it, even worse, why try to utilize it ?

How is it not cruelty to think that someone deserves to suffer ? Simply because they don't beleive in something ?

You Tell Me, because I will never understand that....

dude, why do u care so much about what a dum relegion or its followers delusionally believe about your existance or future?! this wont change their point of view obviously so why care?

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
One of the issues I have with some [b]perspectives of Christianity is the idea that we as a human race are naturally evil, that our nature is a "sinful" one, and that no matter what good we do in our lives, we are still stained with an Earthly Evil that God cannot allow into Heaven.

Instead of being percieved as a powerful race of beings who have the ability to transcend the impulses of survival and do a great many things (like Buddhism, Hinduism, some sects of Catholicism, and other religions/philosophies have), we are generally seen as a naturally wicked people who are unworthy of God's Graces, yet God will overlook our "disgusting ways" and our lack of worth, and indulge us with his generosity, saving us from an eternal torment which we all naturally deserve, if we accept Christ as savior.

This basically renders us powerless as a people, and demeans all our good actions and accomplishments as basically....worthless. We are a worthless people who are only worth something if God sees it that way.

There are those Christians, not all, but many, who beleive that we all deserve to suffer. That we, collectively, deserve no better. We do not deserve to be happy on Earth, only in Heaven.

There are those fundamentalists that see Hell as the only thing we truly deserve, eternal torment and damnation, and that to enter Heaven is to be spoiled with God's love, something we do not deserve.

What you do on Earth doesn't matter, because Earth is worthless. Your life means nothing, your joys, your family, your accomplishments.....nothing.....only Heaven matters.

***

Then there are those Christians, many Catholic, many Protestant, who escape that traditional Puritan-like beleif, and beleive that we all have God within us, and that we have incredible power, and that we can make a difference in this world, and what we do DOES matter here and now.

Universalist Christians, in fact, beleive we are all going to Heaven. A big stretch from traditional Christian thought. They believe in a God whose Love is non-judgemental, non-biased, not narrow - but wide. Absolute and truly unconditional, Ever-Forgiving, All-Loving, a God who only embraces our good, and understands our bad. A God who loves us for everything we are.

A God who does not want us to suffer, nor feels we deserve to ever.

Why is this Blasphemy to so many other Monotheistic Idealogies ?

Do some of you who beleive in God truly WANT people to suffer? Do you see suffering or punishment as an absolute necessity, hoping your deity will render out what you can't upon others ?

That's just unprogressive...why embrace suffering ? Why focus on it, even worse, why try to utilize it ?

How is it not cruelty to think that someone deserves to suffer ? Simply because they don't beleive in something ?

You Tell Me, because I will never understand that.... [/B]

The reasons why human suffer in the Bible is because of duality. 😐

Originally posted by leonheartmm
dude, why do u care so much about what a dum relegion or its followers delusionally believe about your existance or future?! this wont change their point of view obviously so why care?

I understand that another person's point of view cannot affect me if I do not allow it to. So in regard to my own personal safety/state of mind, I have no concern.

However, many many innocent people are affected by this idealogy. Beleive it or not, I DO care about Christian people, and I notice a pattern of unhealthy mentalities within many Christians and Atheists alike.

If one person beleives that another deserves to suffer, then that one thought affects as many people as it can. I aim to get people to question why they wish to utilize or embrace suffering as a punishment or lesson upon others.

BTW, I find it ironic that you ask me why do I care about Christianity when you yourself attack Christianity more than I do.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I understand that another person's point of view cannot affect me if I do not allow it to. So in regard to my own personal safety/state of mind, I have no concern.

However, many many innocent people are affected by this idealogy. Beleive it or not, I [b]DO care about Christian people, and I notice a pattern of unhealthy mentalities within many Christians and Atheists alike.

If one person beleives that another deserves to suffer, then that one thought affects as many people as it can. I aim to get people to question why they wish to utilize or embrace suffering as a punishment or lesson upon others.

BTW, I find it ironic that you ask me why do I care about Christianity when you yourself attack Christianity more than I do. [/B]

true, but my threads names are not personally defensive in nature. its a statement not necessarily anger{ridicule yes but it TRY to keep the anger at bay,it isnt a healthy emotion. you SEEM, and i do admit im hypothesizing here, to be reacting to jia's posts, and links. recent and not so recent, concerning hell, always}. besides im an AWEFUL example to be following as far as mental health/emotional motivations go 😛 😛 . seriously, i might be able to reason but as far as personalities go, mine is probably the most awkward and unstable youl find around here 🙂 .

Originally posted by leonheartmm
true, but my threads names are not personally defensive in nature. its a statement not necessarily anger{ridicule yes but it TRY to keep the anger at bay,it isnt a healthy emotion. you SEEM, and i do admit im hypothesizing here, to be reacting to jia's posts, and links. recent and not so recent, concerning hell, always}. besides im an AWEFUL example to be following as far as mental health/emotional motivations go 😛 😛 . seriously, i might be able to reason but as far as personalities go, mine is probably the most awkward and unstable youl find around here 🙂 .

No Worries

But yes, this is defensive...not of myself, but of everyone. No One Deserves to Suffer, especially for eternity, and I despise that beleif greatly, because it causes nothing but destruction.

The Other Point I wanted to make was the Idea that we have inheritted Adam and Eve's Original Sin, therefore we are unclean and sinful by nature, undeserving of anything but suffering...

One time I asked a few Christian debators (no names) if they take personal responsibility for the Spanish Inquisition, for the Salem Witch Trials, for the Crusades, etc.

Ofcourse, they all said no. What thier religious predecessors have done is not thier current responsibility.

So I ask...if you will not take responsibility for what past Christians have done, then why should I take ANY responsibility for what Adam and Eve supposedly did ? 😬

No, not all. Just those on my List.

Oh, you have a list too, eh?? 😈

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
One of the issues I have with some [b]perspectives of Christianity is the idea that we as a human race are naturally evil, that our nature is a "sinful" one, and that no matter what good we do in our lives, we are still stained with an Earthly Evil that God cannot allow into Heaven.

Instead of being percieved as a powerful race of beings who have the ability to transcend the impulses of survival and do a great many things (like Buddhism, Hinduism, some sects of Catholicism, and other religions/philosophies have), we are generally seen as a naturally wicked people who are unworthy of God's Graces, yet God will overlook our "disgusting ways" and our lack of worth, and indulge us with his generosity, saving us from an eternal torment which we all naturally deserve, if we accept Christ as savior.

This basically renders us powerless as a people, and demeans all our good actions and accomplishments as basically....worthless. We are a worthless people who are only worth something if God sees it that way.

There are those Christians, not all, but many, who beleive that we all deserve to suffer. That we, collectively, deserve no better. We do not deserve to be happy on Earth, only in Heaven.

There are those fundamentalists that see Hell as the only thing we truly deserve, eternal torment and damnation, and that to enter Heaven is to be spoiled with God's love, something we do not deserve.

What you do on Earth doesn't matter, because Earth is worthless. Your life means nothing, your joys, your family, your accomplishments.....nothing.....only Heaven matters.

***

Then there are those Christians, many Catholic, many Protestant, who escape that traditional Puritan-like beleif, and beleive that we all have God within us, and that we have incredible power, and that we can make a difference in this world, and what we do DOES matter here and now.

Universalist Christians, in fact, beleive we are all going to Heaven. A big stretch from traditional Christian thought. They believe in a God whose Love is non-judgemental, non-biased, not narrow - but wide. Absolute and truly unconditional, Ever-Forgiving, All-Loving, a God who only embraces our good, and understands our bad. A God who loves us for everything we are.

A God who does not want us to suffer, nor feels we deserve to ever.

Why is this Blasphemy to so many other Monotheistic Idealogies ?

Do some of you who beleive in God truly WANT people to suffer? Do you see suffering or punishment as an absolute necessity, hoping your deity will render out what you can't upon others ?

That's just unprogressive...why embrace suffering ? Why focus on it, even worse, why try to utilize it ?

How is it not cruelty to think that someone deserves to suffer ? Simply because they don't beleive in something ?

You Tell Me, because I will never understand that.... [/B]

Originally posted by debbiejo
Oh, you have a list too, eh?? 😈

Everyone has a list. I need a freaking list.

😐

How about the suffering in Buddhism ? ..why should people suffer only because they have desires ?

Did u ask yourself that question ?

Originally posted by Fatima
How about the suffering in Buddhism ? ..why should people suffer only because they have desires ?

Did u ask yourself that question ?

People don't suffer because they have desire. People suffer in life and the reason they suffer is because of attachments. If you don't have attachments, then you will not suffer. Buddhism doesn't say if suffering is good or bad; it maybe both. Buddhism is all about understanding where suffering is coming from, and taking responsibility for your own suffering. If you want to suffer, then suffer, but remember that you (or I) are the author of your own suffering.

I am the author of all suffering.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
I am the author of all suffering.

😆 I suffer when I read your posts. 😆

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Why is this Blasphemy to so many other Monotheistic Idealogies ?

Do some of you who beleive in God truly WANT people to suffer? Do you see suffering or punishment as an absolute necessity, hoping your deity will render out what you can't upon others ?

That's just unprogressive...why embrace suffering ? Why focus on it, even worse, why try to utilize it ?

How is it not cruelty to think that someone deserves to suffer ? Simply because they don't beleive in something ?

You Tell Me, because I will never understand that....

Goddess, let me see if I can try to answer some of these questions for you, at least according to what I've studied, observed, asked about...

Firstly, I think there is a need to understand that most Christians feel that the bible is inerrent: "God put it directly down, this is exactly what he said, etc. etc." That seems to play a very large part in it all.

In the bible, there are very two "God-like" personalities. In the Old Testament, we see Wrath!God. Cross this guy, and he'll vanquish you in a thunderbolt. Eat the wrong fruit, and the rest of humanity is doomed. No matter that the devil himself tempted you into it. God doesn't care. You weren't supposed to do it. No mercy.

Then we have the Hippie!God of the New Testament. Come on you people now, smile on your brother everybody get together try to love one another right now. Love your neighbor, love your kids, love your wife, help each other out, man.

We even have a Wrath!God story of Job, wherein God makes a bet with the devil, saying, "haha, devil, this dude Job is so faithful to me, do your worst to him, he'll still stay faithful." And so the devil proceeds to torture Job endlessly, and God proceeds to win the bet giggling snidely, and they all have a jolly good time except for Job, whose family dies and career crashes and body deteriorates. Way to make a point, God.

So with that bit of history in mind, it's quite easy to see where people would get the idea that God does, in fact, think that people deserve suffering.

Which is where we get our Crusades, and our Spanish Inquisitions, and our RIGHT OF DIVINE MANDATE. If God said so, we should do it. You don't want to turn out like that Job fellow, now do you?

Another factor to this, is the whole "ACCEPT JESUS INTO YOUR HEART OR YOU'RE GOING TO HELL SUCKAAS!!!" issue, where we again confront the issue, "Is the bible inerrent?"

For yes, the bible does say, "The way to heaven is through Jesus." and all that. It says this quite clearly. At least four times. In the gospels. Which is the same story told from four different points of view. I once checked the same quote in all four gospels, and found them to be ALMOST the same, but still different. The quote was Jesus saying something.

Bible... inerrent?

However.

So from that, Christians have the good intention of "We shall save you from the eternal damnation of the ugly ugly-ness that is hell, because we KNOW that the only way to heaven is through Jesus." *crosses self*

It's a good intention. But we all know what road is paved with good intentions. Ironic, isn't it?

And thus we get the fanatics and the crazies who think they're doing good. But they're really not. It all comes down to the question of (well, very simply of) if that particular person believes in Wrath!God or Hippie!God, if they believe the bible is inerrent or not, and whether or not you've got to specifically say the words, "I accept Jesus into my heart," and jump through that particular hoop to be able to go to heaven.

Obviously, there's a lot more than that. But this is a very nutshelly simplified sparknotes version of what I hope makes sense to you, indeed, I hope I even answered the question.

And thank you for not lashing out as us all. 🙂

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
People don't suffer because they have desire. People suffer in life and the reason they suffer is because of attachments. If you don't have attachments, then you will not suffer. Buddhism doesn't say if suffering is good or bad; it maybe both. Buddhism is all about understanding where suffering is coming from, and taking responsibility for your own suffering. If you want to suffer, then suffer, but remember that you (or I) are the author of your own suffering.

Well , according to Buddhism (not me), hunger, misery and pain guide the way to the truth and Buddhists believe that the more pain they endure, and the more hunger and misery they suffer, the sooner they become enlightened. But this is not enlightenment; it is an inhuman life of self-abuse and slavery .See how could they taking responsibility for their sufferings if their religion told them to do so ?

Originally posted by Fatima
Well , according to Buddhism (not me), hunger, misery and pain guide the way to the truth and Buddhists believe that the more pain they endure, and the more hunger and misery they suffer, the sooner they become enlightened. But this is not enlightenment; it is an inhuman life of self-abuse and slavery .See how could they taking responsibility for their sufferings if their religion told them to do so ?

I think the point is that you have to suffer to become enlightened. In fact you usually have to suffer to get anything worthwile.

I dont know why but something tells me that Islam can be more self-abusive than Buddhism...dont know why.

I think the point is that you have to suffer to become enlightened.

Put another way: we suffer because of incomplete consciousness.
Ever have a nightmare? Why are you afraid if it's just a dream?
Because you don't realize it's a dream. You think it's real because of incomplete consciousness.

Originally posted by Fatima
Well , according to Buddhism (not me), hunger, misery and pain guide the way to the truth and Buddhists believe that the more pain they endure, and the more hunger and misery they suffer, the sooner they become enlightened. But this is not enlightenment; it is an inhuman life of self-abuse and slavery .See how could they taking responsibility for their sufferings if their religion told them to do so ?

I am a Buddhist and your statement above is not true for any type of Buddhism I know of.