So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Started by Fatima12 pages

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think the point is that you have to suffer to become enlightened. In fact you usually have to suffer to get anything worthwile.

Oh ..So please tell me how the hunger is gonna enlighten them ? 🙄 God created the blessings of this world for human beings' benefit and pleasure, so that they would give Him thanks in return and enjoy it not living in a misery life and suffering .

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont know why but something tells me that Islam can be more self-abusive than Buddhism...dont know why.

nah ..lets be objective Buddhists spend their life performing empty, soul-darkening works that will bring no benefit in either this world or the afterlife. But Islam offers people well-being, beauty and contentment in this life and the next, and forbids any kind of practice that goes against human nature.So it is that our Prophet (Pbuh), in many of his sayings, advises us to make religion simple and easy .Beside there is no such thing like nuns or monks that exist in most religions .

"Make things easy for the people, and do not make it difficult for them, and make them calm (with glad tidings) and do not repulse (them)."1

and the Quran says , "God does not want any injustice for His servants." (40:31)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Fatima
Oh ..So please tell me how the hunger is gonna enlighten them ? 🙄

Er know what Ramadan is? Your a rock all the time. Too tired to reply to the rest.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am a Buddhist and your statement above is not true for any type of Buddhism I know of.

😐 How about the principal teachings of Buddah that u call 'Four Noble Truths':

1 - There is suffering and misery in life.

2- The cause of this suffering and misery is desire.

3 - Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.

4 - Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er know what Ramadan is? Your a rock all the time. Too tired to reply to the rest.

You mean to feel of others people hunger and donate for them 😄 Its for a good and human purposes though. 🙂

Because we refuse to accept legitimate suffering.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Fatima
😐 How about the principal teachings of Buddah that u call 'Four Noble Truths':

1 - There is suffering and misery in life.

2- The cause of this suffering and misery is desire.

3 - Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.

4 - Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path.

You have contradicted yourself. You have shown how Buddhism frees people from suffering not causes suffering. Again Buddhism is not the cause of suffering, but a way to be empowered over suffering.

Here are the Eight Fold Path so you can read them and gain a better understanding.

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html

The Noble Eightfold Path describes the way to the end of suffering, as it was laid out by Siddhartha Gautama. It is a practical guideline to ethical and mental development with the goal of freeing the individual from attachments and delusions; and it finally leads to understanding the truth about all things. Together with the Four Noble Truths it constitutes the gist of Buddhism. Great emphasis is put on the practical aspect, because it is only through practice that one can attain a higher level of existence and finally reach Nirvana. The eight aspects of the path are not to be understood as a sequence of single steps, instead they are highly interdependent principles that have to be seen in relationship with each other.

1. Right View

Right view is the beginning and the end of the path, it simply means to see and to understand things as they really are and to realise the Four Noble Truth. As such, right view is the cognitive aspect of wisdom. It means to see things through, to grasp the impermanent and imperfect nature of worldly objects and ideas, and to understand the law of karma and karmic conditioning. Right view is not necessarily an intellectual capacity, just as wisdom is not just a matter of intelligence. Instead, right view is attained, sustained, and enhanced through all capacities of mind. It begins with the intuitive insight that all beings are subject to suffering and it ends with complete understanding of the true nature of all things. Since our view of the world forms our thoughts and our actions, right view yields right thoughts and right actions.

2. Right Intention

While right view refers to the cognitive aspect of wisdom, right intention refers to the volitional aspect, i.e. the kind of mental energy that controls our actions. Right intention can be described best as commitment to ethical and mental self-improvement. Buddha distinguishes three types of right intentions: 1. the intention of renunciation, which means resistance to the pull of desire, 2. the intention of good will, meaning resistance to feelings of anger and aversion, and 3. the intention of harmlessness, meaning not to think or act cruelly, violently, or aggressively, and to develop compassion.

3. Right Speech

Right speech is the first principle of ethical conduct in the eightfold path. Ethical conduct is viewed as a guideline to moral discipline, which supports the other principles of the path. This aspect is not self-sufficient, however, essential, because mental purification can only be achieved through the cultivation of ethical conduct. The importance of speech in the context of Buddhist ethics is obvious: words can break or save lives, make enemies or friends, start war or create peace. Buddha explained right speech as follows: 1. to abstain from false speech, especially not to tell deliberate lies and not to speak deceitfully, 2. to abstain from slanderous speech and not to use words maliciously against others, 3. to abstain from harsh words that offend or hurt others, and 4. to abstain from idle chatter that lacks purpose or depth. Positively phrased, this means to tell the truth, to speak friendly, warm, and gently and to talk only when necessary.

4. Right Action

The second ethical principle, right action, involves the body as natural means of expression, as it refers to deeds that involve bodily actions. Unwholesome actions lead to unsound states of mind, while wholesome actions lead to sound states of mind. Again, the principle is explained in terms of abstinence: right action means 1. to abstain from harming sentient beings, especially to abstain from taking life (including suicide) and doing harm intentionally or delinquently, 2. to abstain from taking what is not given, which includes stealing, robbery, fraud, deceitfulness, and dishonesty, and 3. to abstain from sexual misconduct. Positively formulated, right action means to act kindly and compassionately, to be honest, to respect the belongings of others, and to keep sexual relationships harmless to others. Further details regarding the concrete meaning of right action can be found in the Precepts.

5. Right Livelihood

Right livelihood means that one should earn one's living in a righteous way and that wealth should be gained legally and peacefully. The Buddha mentions four specific activities that harm other beings and that one should avoid for this reason: 1. dealing in weapons, 2. dealing in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as slave trade and prostitution), 3. working in meat production and butchery, and 4. selling intoxicants and poisons, such as alcohol and drugs. Furthermore any other occupation that would violate the principles of right speech and right action should be avoided.

6. Right Effort

Right effort can be seen as a prerequisite for the other principles of the path. Without effort, which is in itself an act of will, nothing can be achieved, whereas misguided effort distracts the mind from its task, and confusion will be the consequence. Mental energy is the force behind right effort; it can occur in either wholesome or unwholesome states. The same type of energy that fuels desire, envy, aggression, and violence can on the other side fuel self-discipline, honesty, benevolence, and kindness. Right effort is detailed in four types of endeavours that rank in ascending order of perfection: 1. to prevent the arising of unarisen unwholesome states, 2. to abandon unwholesome states that have already arisen, 3. to arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen, and 4. to maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen.

7. Right Mindfulness

Right mindfulness is the controlled and perfected faculty of cognition. It is the mental ability to see things as they are, with clear consciousness. Usually, the cognitive process begins with an impression induced by perception, or by a thought, but then it does not stay with the mere impression. Instead, we almost always conceptualise sense impressions and thoughts immediately. We interpret them and set them in relation to other thoughts and experiences, which naturally go beyond the facticity of the original impression. The mind then posits concepts, joins concepts into constructs, and weaves those constructs into complex interpretative schemes. All this happens only half consciously, and as a result we often see things obscured. Right mindfulness is anchored in clear perception and it penetrates impressions without getting carried away. Right mindfulness enables us to be aware of the process of conceptualisation in a way that we actively observe and control the way our thoughts go. Buddha accounted for this as the four foundations of mindfulness: 1. contemplation of the body, 2. contemplation of feeling (repulsive, attractive, or neutral), 3. contemplation of the state of mind, and 4. contemplation of the phenomena.

8. Right Concentration

The eighth principle of the path, right concentration, refers to the development of a mental force that occurs in natural consciousness, although at a relatively low level of intensity, namely concentration. Concentration in this context is described as one-pointedness of mind, meaning a state where all mental faculties are unified and directed onto one particular object. Right concentration for the purpose of the eightfold path means wholesome concentration, i.e. concentration on wholesome thoughts and actions. The Buddhist method of choice to develop right concentration is through the practice of meditation. The meditating mind focuses on a selected object. It first directs itself onto it, then sustains concentration, and finally intensifies concentration step by step. Through this practice it becomes natural to apply elevated levels concentration also in everyday situations.

You all deserve to suffer for not believing in Samuel L. Jackson's absloute power,

Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
One of the issues I have with some [b]perspectives of Christianity is the idea that we as a human race are naturally evil, that our nature is a "sinful" one, and that no matter what good we do in our lives, we are still stained with an Earthly Evil that God cannot allow into Heaven.

Instead of being percieved as a powerful race of beings who have the ability to transcend the impulses of survival and do a great many things (like Buddhism, Hinduism, some sects of Catholicism, and other religions/philosophies have), we are generally seen as a naturally wicked people who are unworthy of God's Graces, yet God will overlook our "disgusting ways" and our lack of worth, and indulge us with his generosity, saving us from an eternal torment which we all naturally deserve, if we accept Christ as savior.

This basically renders us powerless as a people, and demeans all our good actions and accomplishments as basically....worthless. We are a worthless people who are only worth something if God sees it that way.

There are those Christians, not all, but many, who beleive that we all deserve to suffer. That we, collectively, deserve no better. We do not deserve to be happy on Earth, only in Heaven.

There are those fundamentalists that see Hell as the only thing we truly deserve, eternal torment and damnation, and that to enter Heaven is to be spoiled with God's love, something we do not deserve.

What you do on Earth doesn't matter, because Earth is worthless. Your life means nothing, your joys, your family, your accomplishments.....nothing.....only Heaven matters.

***

Then there are those Christians, many Catholic, many Protestant, who escape that traditional Puritan-like beleif, and beleive that we all have God within us, and that we have incredible power, and that we can make a difference in this world, and what we do DOES matter here and now.

Universalist Christians, in fact, beleive we are all going to Heaven. A big stretch from traditional Christian thought. They believe in a God whose Love is non-judgemental, non-biased, not narrow - but wide. Absolute and truly unconditional, Ever-Forgiving, All-Loving, a God who only embraces our good, and understands our bad. A God who loves us for everything we are.

A God who does not want us to suffer, nor feels we deserve to ever.

Why is this Blasphemy to so many other Monotheistic Idealogies ?

Do some of you who beleive in God truly WANT people to suffer? Do you see suffering or punishment as an absolute necessity, hoping your deity will render out what you can't upon others ?

That's just unprogressive...why embrace suffering ? Why focus on it, even worse, why try to utilize it ?

How is it not cruelty to think that someone deserves to suffer ? Simply because they don't believe in something ?

You Tell Me, because I will never understand that.... [/B]

It is true to that we are imperfect and inherently evil, however God doesn't believe that we should be unable to go to heaven because it. I guess I'll just explain my religion's interpretation of the Bible.

First, we don't believe that when you die you go to Heaven or Hell. Actually, we don't even believe in Hell, well, we believe in Hell but people don't go there.

People are inherently evil, and sin everyday. Because of this, there is nothing we can really do about this. God knows this. That's why he sent Jesus Christ down to die for us. his death had a symbolic meaning. Death is the ultimate payment for all of our sins. God's point is that because we sin all day everyday, and because there is nothing you can do about it, just die. If and when you die, all of your sins will be forgiven.

In our faith after Armageddon we don't go to Heaven, but stay here on Earth. It makes sense, because God's original intention was for us to live on the Earth peacefully and happily.

So, when Armageddon comes any and all of the evil people who haven't died and are still being "wicked" will be destroyed, while everyone who has died and the few people who are on the planet that love and worship god will live on Earth turned into a paradise forever.

^ How can you ever find happiness, when you think you are inherently evil? You are what you think; therefore, if you think you are good, but fall short, then good is what you will be. But if you think you are evil, then no one dieing on a cross can make you good.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
You all deserve to suffer for not believing in Samuel L. Jackson's absloute power.
Originally posted by Violent2Dope

..... you suck ass..... ❌

Originally posted by Violent2Dope

....you suck ass..... ❌

LOL DOUBLE POST

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
LOL DOUBLE POST

Get used to them.............................. oh yeah, you suck ass.

^ You two are making me suffer. 😆

Re: Re: Re: Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Fatima
Well , according to Buddhism (not me), hunger, misery and pain guide the way to the truth and Buddhists believe that the more pain they endure, and the more hunger and misery they suffer, the sooner they become enlightened. But this is not enlightenment; it is an inhuman life of self-abuse and slavery .See how could they taking responsibility for their sufferings if their religion told them to do so ?

hunger, misery and pain were a sideaffect of siddharta giving up food, ignorance and wordly pleasure. the NEGETIVITY associated with the giving up of those things was NOT what guided buddha. it was the trancendance of materialistic chains that stop most beings from reaching a higher level of existance, that finally allowed shakyamunisoon to break away from his human bond. atleast thats how i see it. however this world is, in part, physical. and in my oppinion, either not evolved/changed or inherently not fit enough to house a higher level ofconciousness. by its very nature, giving up on materialistic things will cause pain and suffering to the material body. as this dimension has holds on our body stronger than cages. but it IS necessary to make a differentiation between the SEPERATION/TRANCENDANCE and PAIN/SUFFERING, associated with that trancendance. the former{i think} plays a part in elevating you to higher level, the later, does not, and could ideally be done without, in an ideal world. also its good not to confuse the necessity to feal and understand the pain of others{needed for trancendance} with the pain of leaving materialistic bounds{not really a cause/need for trancendance, again, in my humble oppinion.}
furthermore, you should seperate, the pain that comes with the realisation{of some} that you are infact a prisoner of your desires{same way a human would hate to be a slave where its master had more control over it than its nature or conciounce}, and the pain that comes with LETTING GO of those desires which is due to addiction and habit. the former is probably needed in ascension. the later, it is your aim to overcome/avoid, and is not a necessity for trancendance.

furthermore, UNLIKE islam/christianity buddhism does NOT tell you that to you can only acheive enlightenment{actually not a concept found in islam or christianity} through sufferring. it might have been the legacy of buddhas to take alms, but thats a different thing. suffering isnt like the trial of sin/good deeds that allah places infront of you. its a wholly different concept. not sinister/totalitarian/tyrranically decisive, like that of islam. and noweher do i know of where suffering is directly proportional to enlightenmient 😆 . if indeed your suffering is causing you to lose focus and start hating/be scared of anything/cause disturbing internal conflict, your probably going AWAY from enlightenment, so no, that doesnt hold.

and while were on the subject, the LOWEST hell{islamic jahannum i mean} has peoples head cleaved in two, and their brains boiled with the sparks of hellfire as their fingers burn and ther bodies rot{and hellfire even the weakest is sinsiterly black and 5 times hotter than any fire eveer created in the univers,e including big bangs/sun etc}. this is done again and again forever. or how abaout the suicide, who will have an extra punishment of eternally, and continuously dying the same way he killed himself in real life.

or maybe ud prefer the real world. cutting hands for the slightest theivery. death by stoning for adultery or fornication on top pf 80 lashes each. encouragement to beat up children above 8 for not saying prayer. making women wear the burqa and have no contact with any men after 10 other than in the most crucial of matter. no punishment for marital rape. or the fact that any interest earnt on any money in real life will turn to molten metal and burn your entire body in the grave until the day of judgement. killing of infidels who say anything against the prophet. permissable beating of your wife if she does sumthing you dont like or is unislamic. denying sexuality until marriage. i cud go on and on. islamic is terrible when it comes to ABUSING the body and mind.

Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
One of the issues I have with some [b]perspectives of Christianity is the idea that we as a human race are naturally evil, that our nature is a "sinful" one, and that no matter what good we do in our lives, we are still stained with an Earthly Evil that God cannot allow into Heaven.[/b]

Okay.
we are generally seen as a naturally wicked people who are unworthy of God's Graces, yet God will overlook our "disgusting ways" and our lack of worth, and indulge us with his generosity, saving us from an eternal torment which we all naturally deserve, if we accept Christ as savior.

How often do you have thoughts that would be recognized by Christianity as sinful? How often do you lust? How often do you have extramarital sex? How often do you curse? How often do you take God's name in vain? How often do you not honor God?
This basically renders us powerless as a people, and demeans all our good actions and accomplishments as basically....worthless. We are a worthless people who are only worth something if God sees it that way.

Heh, no.

We are not powerless as a people. We have a will, and we can overcome temptation. God has endowed us with His spirit--and He wouldn't do that unless He thought we were worth something. He even sent His Son to die for us so that we could have everlasting life--and who would sacrifice Himself for someone unless that someone were worth more than nothing?

There are those Christians, not all, but many, who beleive that we all deserve to suffer. That we, collectively, deserve no better. We do not deserve to be happy on Earth, only in Heaven.

There are those fundamentalists that see Hell as the only thing we truly deserve, eternal torment and damnation, and that to enter Heaven is to be spoiled with God's love, something we do not deserve.

What you do on Earth doesn't matter, because Earth is worthless. Your life means nothing, your joys, your family, your accomplishments.....nothing.....only Heaven matters.


Heaven is the only thing that truly matters, but that doesn't mean we aren't to enjoy ourselves on this Earth.
Then there are those Christians, many Catholic, many Protestant, who escape that traditional Puritan-like beleif, and beleive that we all have God within us, and that we have incredible power, and that we can make a difference in this world, and what we do DOES matter here and now.

kk
Universalist Christians, in fact, beleive we are all going to Heaven. A big stretch from traditional Christian thought. They believe in a God whose Love is non-judgemental, non-biased, not narrow - but wide. Absolute and truly unconditional, Ever-Forgiving, All-Loving, a God who only embraces our good, and understands our bad. A God who loves us for everything we are.

And a God who does not stick by His Word. A God who has lied to us, who has deceived us, who has been edited and revised to suit their whims.
A God who does not want us to suffer, nor feels we deserve to ever.

God does not want you to suffer.
Why is this Blasphemy to so many other Monotheistic Idealogies ?

Blasphemy is "irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc." To say that the Bible is a lie is to disrespect God's Word.
Do some of you who beleive in God truly WANT people to suffer? Do you see suffering or punishment as an absolute necessity, hoping your deity will render out what you can't upon others ?

It is not suffering that is necessary, but atonement.
That's just unprogressive...why embrace suffering ? Why focus on it, even worse, why try to utilize it ?

Because it is not our will, but God's.
How is it not cruelty to think that someone deserves to suffer ? Simply because they don't beleive in something ?

Suffering is not caused by a lack of belief--as I have stated numerous times in the past--but rather t lack of forgiveness. There are people who believe in God who are going to Hell, and even demons tremble before Him.

Re: Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by FeceMan
Okay.

How often do you have thoughts that would be recognized by Christianity as sinful? How often do you lust? How often do you have extramarital sex? How often do you curse? How often do you take God's name in vain? How often do you not honor God?

How often do you do things that would be recognized by Islam as sinful?

Originally posted by FeceMan
Heh, no.

We are not powerless as a people. We have a will, and we can overcome temptation. God has endowed us with His spirit--and He wouldn't do that unless He thought we were worth something. He even sent His Son to die for us so that we could have everlasting life--and who would sacrifice Himself for someone unless that someone were worth more than nothing?

Christian/Egyptian mythology is so confusing.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Heaven is the only thing that truly matters, but that doesn't mean we aren't to enjoy ourselves on this Earth.

This life is all that truly matters, because if you don’t get it right, you will return and do it again.

Originally posted by FeceMan
kk

And a God who does not stick by His Word. A God who has lied to us, who has deceived us, who has been edited and revised to suit their whims.

God does not want you to suffer.

Blasphemy is "irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc." To say that the Bible is a lie is to disrespect God's Word.

Why believe the bible? Why not some other book? The answer is because you were raised a Christian in a Christian society. If you had been born in a Islamic society, you would have been Islamic.

Originally posted by FeceMan
It is not suffering that is necessary, but atonement.

Atonement? There is nothing to be saved from.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Because it is not our will, but God's.

As you have been told.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Suffering is not caused by a lack of belief--as I have stated numerous times in the past--but rather t lack of forgiveness. There are people who believe in God who are going to Hell, and even demons tremble before Him.

Suffering is caused by attachments.

Re: Re: Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How often do you do things that would be recognized by Islam as sinful?

Very often. I don't deny my own sin.
Christian/Egyptian mythology is so confusing.

Only to a nonbeliever.
This life is all that truly matters, because if you don’t get it right, you will return and do it again.

Fail. Even if one isn't a Christian, we're approaching the subject from a Christian viewpoint.
Why believe the bible? Why not some other book? The answer is because you were raised a Christian in a Christian society. If you had been born in a Islamic society, you would have been Islamic.

No other book is the Word of God.
Atonement? There is nothing to be saved from.

Continue to think so.
As you have been told.

As the Bible has been written.
Suffering is caused by attachments.

Suffering in this life, perhaps.

Re: So We All Deserve to Suffer, huh ?

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
One of the issues I have with some [b]perspectives of Christianity is the idea that we as a human race are naturally evil, that our nature is a "sinful" one, and that no matter what good we do in our lives, we are still stained with an Earthly Evil that God cannot allow into Heaven.
[/B]

We are not natural evil so much as we are easily misguided/immoral. The Bible like many other religions is an attempt to help us lead a moral and fulfilling life.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali

Instead of being percieved as a powerful race of beings who have the ability to transcend the impulses of survival and do a great many things (like Buddhism, Hinduism, some sects of Catholicism, and other religions/philosophies have), we are generally seen as a naturally wicked people who are unworthy of God's Graces, yet God will overlook our "disgusting ways" and our lack of worth, and indulge us with his generosity, saving us from an eternal torment which we all naturally deserve, if we accept Christ as savior.

We are a powerful race no one's denying that. YHWH even acknowledges that in the book of genesis. Our problem is that we can be easily lead astray, I believe that is one of the many reasons why Christianity portrays humans as lambs.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali

This basically renders us powerless as a people, and demeans all our good actions and accomplishments as basically....worthless. We are a worthless people who are only worth something if God sees it that way.

No,no,no we are not worthless, but we are flawed as human beings. It's only by attempting to better ourselves will we ever understand our individual worth.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali

There are those Christians, not all, but many, who beleive that we all deserve to suffer. That we, collectively, deserve no better. We do not deserve to be happy on Earth, only in Heaven.

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

Contemplate that.

Furthermore, we do not deserve to suffer so much as we need to suffer.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
There are those fundamentalists that see Hell as the only thing we truly deserve, eternal torment and damnation, and that to enter Heaven is to be spoiled with God's love, something we do not deserve.

Stop listening to extremeist.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
What you do on Earth doesn't matter, because Earth is worthless. Your life means nothing, your joys, your family, your accomplishments.....nothing.....only Heaven matters.

The Bible does not asser that belief.