3 gods vs 6 top tiers.

Originally posted by starking
Here's the difference, Rhino ISN'T a character of pis, but one of cis. Meaning any time gets humilated by Spider-man, it's because of him being a complete moron. Ds DIFFERS from Rhino, in a MAJORITY of his apearances, he has been viewed by writers, as above Superman level characters.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that.

John Byrne clearly had Superman defeat Darkseid in Legends, and even if that was later retconned by Evanier, Byrne clearly believed that Superman could take Darkseid. His Generations III had Darkseid kill two Superman level or above beings, but then ultimately lose in single combat to Superman himself. Its out of continuity, but it clearly illustrates John Bryne's views on the whole thing -- and this guy once said that Darkseid was only slightly less powerful than Galactus!

Jeph Loeb, Mark Schultz, Chuck Austen...It seems they feel Superman is above Darkseid too.

Of course Darkseid has some great showings under his belt, and I'm sure there are a lot of writers who believe him to be above Superman -- but the fact remains that he only has one absolute clean physical win on Superman, and even that wasn't a knock out, at best a TKO.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand the PIS/CIS examples you guys are giving me. It seems to be a rather disingenuous rule when debating, though, as anyone can just call someone's example PIS and be done with it.

Originally posted by Desaad
Right, and I have no reservations admitting that Great Darkness Saga Darkseid would destroy 6 top tiers, and then some.

But one showing is not his average. It's one showing.

let's use Logic. Stayne would beat Them with ease. DS>> Stayne.

GDS DS is still DS. When he doesn't use his power to his fullest, we call that PIS. Plot induced stupidity. It's like when superman actually has trouble with the toyman or flash gets clocked by a boomerang.

Originally posted by quanchi112
is that stated or are u just assuming gds counts.

Its never been stated, but its no more an assumption than you assuming that it doesn't count.

The era of this Legion, the clothes they are wearing, everything points to GDS counting again.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that.

John Byrne clearly had Superman defeat Darkseid in Legends, and even if that was later retconned by Evanier, Byrne clearly believed that Superman could take Darkseid. His Generations III had Darkseid kill two Superman level or above beings, but then ultimately lose in single combat to Superman himself. Its out of continuity, but it clearly illustrates John Bryne's views on the whole thing -- and this guy once said that Darkseid was only slightly less powerful than Galactus!

Jeph Loeb, Mark Schultz, Chuck Austen...It seems they feel Superman is above Darkseid too.

Of course Darkseid has some great showings under his belt, and I'm sure there are a lot of writers who believe him to be above Superman -- but the fact remains that he only has one absolute clean physical win on Superman, and even that wasn't a knock out, at best a TKO.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand the PIS/CIS examples you guys are giving me. It seems to be a rather disingenuous rule when debating, though, as anyone can just call someone's example PIS and be done with it.

Oh come on. That's obviously DC wanking Superman. He can pwn every single peer of Superman but lose to Big Blue himself? 🙄

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
let's use Logic. Stayne would beat Them with ease. DS>> Stayne.

GDS DS is still DS. When he doesn't use his power to his fullest, we call that PIS. Plot induced stupidity. It's like when superman actually has trouble with the toyman or flash gets clocked by a boomerang.

Originally posted by quanchi112
reagardless. ds went areound stealing peoples powers. aka thier lunch money. he needed powerups not his own. he had to steal power to be able to accomplish this. he took kids lunch money. 😆

But it still didn't power him up beyond his normal levels, or even TO his normal levels, and he nearly took over the universe and defeated two of the most powerful beings in that universe in the process, casually.

Your dismissal of this showing for Darkseid indicates to me that you don't think anything THanos has ever done is impressive, because your above description is exactly what Thanos does every time he has a "plan".

Originally posted by Desaad
Its never been stated, but its no more an assumption than you assuming that it doesn't count.

The era of this Legion, the clothes they are wearing, everything points to GDS counting again.

Originally posted by starking
But we still have Ds doing stuff, like trumping the Losh, depowering Secret, scaring the Lords of chaos, and creating Stayne, we can't say FOR SURE if Seid isn't at that level, for in those storys he really didn't show much of a limit.

It actually must have been Desaad who scared the Lords of Chaos and Order, since "Darkseid" later lost to Dr. Fate (Eric/Linda Strauss) and that was retconned in v2 of New Gods.

Darkseid "trumping the LoSH"...are you referring to Foundations? Because I'd say he showed a limit when he was driven back into the Tube. Not nearly the bad showing that Quanchi is making it out to be, but not something that would, IMHO, show him to be above 6 top tiers in a battle.

Creating Stayne isn't a battle feat, really, which is part of what throws me about that one. Its impressive, definitely, but why haven't we seen that translate into more battles?

Originally posted by Desaad
But it still didn't power him up beyond his normal levels, or even TO his normal levels, and he nearly took over the universe and defeated two of the most powerful beings in that universe in the process, casually.

Your dismissal of this showing for Darkseid indicates to me that you don't think anything THanos has ever done is impressive, because your above description is exactly what Thanos does every time he has a "plan".

Originally posted by quanchi112
but until its clear we can assume nothing. ds is whacked out. they do stupid shit all the time.

Then by that same token, we would have to go back to the default -- which is that it was published at one point, so it must be in continuity.

Which leads us back to my view anyway.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Oh come on. That's obviously DC wanking Superman. He can pwn every single peer of Superman but lose to Big Blue himself? 🙄

I see it as well as you do, but its STILL CONTINUITY.

I don't see why you guys are so resistant to continuity.

Originally posted by The Problem
Give my any mainstrem top tier that only has two or three low showings.

Originally posted by Desaad
Then by that same token, we would have to go back to the default -- which is that it was published at one point, so it must be in continuity.

Which leads us back to my view anyway.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that.

John Byrne clearly had Superman defeat Darkseid in Legends, and even if that was later retconned by Evanier, Byrne clearly believed that Superman could take Darkseid. His Generations III had Darkseid kill two Superman level or above beings, but then ultimately lose in single combat to Superman himself. Its out of continuity, but it clearly illustrates John Bryne's views on the whole thing -- and this guy once said that Darkseid was only slightly less powerful than Galactus!

Jeph Loeb, Mark Schultz, Chuck Austen...It seems they feel Superman is above Darkseid too.

Of course Darkseid has some great showings under his belt, and I'm sure there are a lot of writers who believe him to be above Superman -- but the fact remains that he only has one absolute clean physical win on Superman, and even that wasn't a knock out, at best a TKO.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand the PIS/CIS examples you guys are giving me. It seems to be a rather disingenuous rule when debating, though, as anyone can just call someone's example PIS and be done with it.

Originally posted by Desaad
I see it as well as you do, but its STILL CONTINUITY.

I don't see why you guys are so resistant to continuity.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Black Bolt.
Sentry. ermmhappy

Sentry doen'st have enough Top showings. Nothing that puts him even close to Superman. And BB has no Feats on his own that I'm aware of. Most if his feats are battle feats. Not exactly Top tier inspiring.

Originally posted by starking
Bryne thinks Seid is slightly less powerful, than Galactus, yet he has Superman defeating him? Wow, that's real...confusing 😕. Anyways, I still believe, that if a majority of his writers, have him ABOVE Superman, then that's the guy, we should be using in debates, rather than those piss poor showings(excluding Bryne's), against Superman. In other words, let's use the Ds, created by(and carried on, to other writer's beliefs), Jack Kirby 🙂

Originally posted by quanchi112
kirby doesnt write ds anymore. im sure if ds does some amazing ass crap in countdown ull count it. and refer to it. but if he gets embarrassed it will be more piss. everything counts in continuity. we cannot pick and choose. if that were the case its anarchy.

Then for the sake of continuity, Thanos has done nothing impressive on his own other than standing up to Odin. every other feat he has is filled with some kind of prep, Tech, stealing of others candy, or an amazing power up. and of course this is all in continuity.

Thats not true at all, by the way.

Just putting that out there.

Originally posted by Desaad
It actually must have been Desaad who scared the Lords of Chaos and Order, since "Darkseid" later lost to Dr. Fate (Eric/Linda Strauss) and that was retconned in v2 of New Gods.

Darkseid "trumping the LoSH"...are you referring to Foundations? Because I'd say he showed a limit when he was driven back into the Tube. Not nearly the bad showing that Quanchi is making it out to be, but not something that would, IMHO, show him to be above 6 top tiers in a battle.

Creating Stayne isn't a battle feat, really, which is part of what throws me about that one. Its impressive, definitely, but why haven't we seen that translate into more battles?

And I agree with you, on the Losh thing, atleast it took their top players, to perform that feat, and the story NEEDED a way, to defeat Darkseid, so it really wasn't that bad.

As for the Stayne thing, he HAS created powerful beings, more than once. And if he can do anything better than her, then he should be able to replicate ANY feat, she does. I know it's abc logic, but it's not always inaccurate.