3 gods vs 6 top tiers.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that.

John Byrne clearly had Superman defeat Darkseid in Legends, and even if that was later retconned by Evanier, Byrne clearly believed that Superman could take Darkseid. His Generations III had Darkseid kill two Superman level or above beings, but then ultimately lose in single combat to Superman himself. Its out of continuity, but it clearly illustrates John Bryne's views on the whole thing -- and this guy once said that Darkseid was only slightly less powerful than Galactus!

Jeph Loeb, Mark Schultz, Chuck Austen...It seems they feel Superman is above Darkseid too.

Of course Darkseid has some great showings under his belt, and I'm sure there are a lot of writers who believe him to be above Superman -- but the fact remains that he only has one absolute clean physical win on Superman, and even that wasn't a knock out, at best a TKO.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand the PIS/CIS examples you guys are giving me. It seems to be a rather disingenuous rule when debating, though, as anyone can just call someone's example PIS and be done with it.

Originally posted by starking
Yeah, the Desaad thing, was an interesting twist.

And I agree with you, on the Losh thing, atleast it took their top players, to perform that feat, and the story NEEDED a way, to defeat Darkseid, so it really wasn't that bad.

As for the Stayne thing, he HAS created powerful beings, more than once. And if he can do anything better than her, then he should be able to replicate ANY feat, she does. I know it's abc logic, but it's not always inaccurate.

remember that highfather made it clear that DS could and would destroy Takion. Takion beat 3 top tiers without even trying. Would Takion have any problem beating these six? should a being able to kill Takion have any problem beating them?

Originally posted by Desaad
I see it as well as you do, but its STILL CONTINUITY.

I don't see why you guys are so resistant to continuity.

Astro......killing them with courtesy.

True story, PIS = Picking Individual showings i do/don't like.

No CIS is basically taking away characterization, and leaving only the powerset to debate with.

Hence threads like Superman vs Six marvel top tiers, with a midtier thrown in, going to Superman 9/10.

I already said on SHC, that under some pens he'd win the match, but it wouldn't be the majority.

A certain few on KMC staunchly void the losses to Superman from Darkseids record.

I don't think Superman has his number, but i do think if they fought ten times, the kryptonian would win about 2 matches.

I also think Thor and other elite top tiers could win a match or two as well, which isn't as bad as Xerxes or Imp saying Uxas loses 5.5/10.

It leaves Darkseid still comfortably above the top tier, with losses being the outlier.

As i've said to this bunch many times.......the losses to superman don't define his record.

But they do influence it, as any and all canon showings do.

It won't sink in tho.

Mostly because the rules support their stance, and because many people don't actually read the comics, but go on hearsay.

But Thanos has never lost to Wolverine.

And Firelord's Spiderman showing is canon, but by no means his average, so taking the "average" approach should be sufficient to argue against "Spiderman beats Firelord".

Originally posted by quanchi112
kirby doesnt write ds anymore. im sure if ds does some amazing ass crap in countdown ull count it. and refer to it. but if he gets embarrassed it will be more piss. everything counts in continuity. we cannot pick and choose. if that were the case its anarchy.

Originally posted by Desaad
But Thanos has never lost to Wolverine.

And Firelord's Spiderman showing is canon, but by no means his average, so taking the "average" approach should be sufficient to argue against "Spiderman beats Firelord".

Originally posted by UniOmni
Astro......killing them with courtesy.

True story, PIS = Picking Individual showings i do/don't like.

No CIS is basically taking away characterization, and leaving only the powerset to debate with.

Hence threads like Superman vs Six marvel top tiers, with a midtier thrown in, going to Superman 9/10.

I already said on SHC, that under some pens he'd win the match, but it wouldn't be the majority.

A certain few on KMC staunchly void the losses to Superman from Darkseids record.

I don't think Superman has his number, but i do think if they fought ten times, the kryptonian would win about 2 matches.

I also think Thor and other elite top tiers could win a match or two as well, which isn't as bad as Xerxes or Imp saying Uxas loses 5.5/10.

It leaves Darkseid still comfortably above the top tier, with losses being the outlier.

As i've said to this bunch many times.......the losses to superman don't define his record.

But they do influence it, as any and all canon showings do.

It won't sink in tho.

Mostly because the rules support their stance, and because many people don't actually read the comics, but go on hearsay.

Originally posted by starking
Yeah, the Desaad thing, was an interesting twist.

And I agree with you, on the Losh thing, atleast it took their top players, to perform that feat, and the story NEEDED a way, to defeat Darkseid, so it really wasn't that bad.

As for the Stayne thing, he HAS created powerful beings, more than once. And if he can do anything better than her, then he should be able to replicate ANY feat, she does. I know it's abc logic, but it's not always inaccurate.

I think at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

What I want, to categorize Darkseid in the class that you do, is some very solid wins over some top tiers in a battle.

I have a feeling we are going to be getting that in Starlin's series, but only time will tell.

Originally posted by starking
Go watch your cartoons, the grown folks are talking 🙂

LMAO

Originally posted by Superherovandal
thats picking and choosing as well. isn't that the same thing? 😉

No, quite the opposite.

Firelord was beaten by Spiderman (with some extenuating circumstances, like agreeing not to go Supernova or whatever).

And thats part of Firelord's average, and its part of Spiderman's as well.

But so too is Firelord taking on Hercules and Thor at once, and Spiderman getting taken down by the Vulture.

Ultimately, the most honest conclusion is going to be arrived at through averages, not through picking your favorite showings.

Originally posted by Desaad
I think at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

What I want, to categorize Darkseid in the class that you do, is some very solid wins over some top tiers in a battle.

I have a feeling we are going to be getting that in Starlin's series, but only time will tell.

I call whiskying IM away a few times as wins. Also beating the shit out of Highfather. He knocked the **** out of WW with one hit in Rock of ages. He pwned Firestorm and Orion with a wave. He WTF pwned Earth Angel Supergirl who was able to beat Despero then pwn the other bad gods.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Then for the sake of continuity, Thanos has done nothing impressive on his own other than standing up to Odin. every other feat he has is filled with some kind of prep, Tech, stealing of others candy, or an amazing power up. and of course this is all in continuity.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Sentry doen'st have enough Top showings. Nothing that puts him even close to Superman. And BB has no Feats on his own that I'm aware of. Most if his feats are battle feats. Not exactly Top tier inspiring.

To Superheroavndlasomesuch

Why would it be a bad thing to not have decisive battles?

Isn't the actual fun in the vs forum in the actual debating of the characters?

And for anyone who's read comics a day in the life, decisive battles don't exist!

Comics exist for the underdog appeal mostly.

It shouldn't be this hard to tell.

And to Nvr - BB has no feats of his own, yet you admit he's got battle feats?

What makes Superman a top tier to you then Nvr?

Because he can see across the universe?

Or his bilingual tongue?

BB has plenty of feats that make him a top tier, and his lack of low showings pushes him to the elite top tier (imo).

He's got enough to beat WW.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, quite the opposite.

Firelord was beaten by Spiderman (with some extenuating circumstances, like agreeing not to go Supernova or whatever).

And thats part of Firelord's average, and its part of Spiderman's as well.

But so too is Firelord taking on Hercules and Thor at once, and Spiderman getting taken down by the Vulture.

Ultimately, the most honest conclusion is going to be arrived at through averages, not through picking your favorite showings.

So then basically, me not including PIS is part of your descision to try and come for me? Why don't you just rewrite our forum rules for us.

Originally posted by Desaad
But Thanos has never lost to Wolverine.

And Firelord's Spiderman showing is canon, but by no means his average, so taking the "average" approach should be sufficient to argue against "Spiderman beats Firelord".

That's complete hypocrisy. That fight is such PIS, it's part of forum rules.
😕

He imprisoned Thor w/ Power Gem with technology, Quanchi. Bad example.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, quite the opposite.

Firelord was beaten by Spiderman (with some extenuating circumstances, like agreeing not to go Supernova or whatever).

And thats part of Firelord's average, and its part of Spiderman's as well.

But so too is Firelord taking on Hercules and Thor at once, and Spiderman getting taken down by the Vulture.

Ultimately, the most honest conclusion is going to be arrived at through averages, not through picking your favorite showings.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
[QUOTE=9192108]Originally posted by Desaad
[B]But Thanos has never lost to Wolverine.

And Firelord's Spiderman showing is canon, but by no means his average, so taking the "average" approach should be sufficient to argue against "Spiderman beats Firelord". [/QUOTE

That's complete hypocrisy. That fight is such PIS, it's part of forum rules.
😕 [/B]

I'm sorry, hypocrisy? I'm not sure you are using the term in the correct context, or else you could explain how me sticking with the way I've debated since I started debating is hypocritical?

Originally posted by starking
Go watch your cartoons, the grown folks are talking 🙂

They'd be an improvement, and more in line with the actual characters we debate.