Ken Masters v.s. Paul Phoenix

Originally posted by Sado22
okay Darkc all that you posted there is impressive, really. but care to explain how, then, are things like SF: Movie, the SF2 anime and the SF2V series so different in what they present. i don't want to get into the comics at the moment. do you any explanation, cuz i would really like to know?

I’ve already said before that I don’t possess a massive wealth of knowledge of either the Tekken or the Street Fighter lore, franchise or worlds. I’ve played them on numerous occasions and Wikipedia’d the background on my preferred characters in both games, but that’s it.

Who knows why things are a bit different? I sure as hell don’t, I don’t know the motives or plotline behind it. As long as it is licensed by Capcom, it should be a legitimate source. Unless there is direct, irrefutable evidence that there is a contradiction between game-to-media transit, which there really shouldn’t be anyway. I doubt Capcom is stupid enough to let people run away with a contract to do whatever they wish.

Originally posted by Sado22
go back a few pages....and check some other threads if you have the time.

While it is annoying, try not to be so quick as to automatically tag it as a flame.

Originally posted by Sado22
as for underestimating Ken, i didn't downplay him. the way paul was being downplayed, however, was shameful.

So is the case with Remy downplaying Paul as well. Let’s face it, you’re both very biased and zealous on this topic. Or on Tekken and Street Fighter in general.

Originally posted by Sado22
you're new around here, i guess.

I’ve been here two years and three months more than you have. Something that’s easily seen via my profile. And yet you’re guessing I’m apparently a newb? Ridiculous.

And no, I’m not unfamiliar with debating in this forum either. Because I don’t join in 90% doesn’t mean I don’t observe at times either. I don’t jump in for the sake of things, I come into it only if I know if someone’s wrong about something or an ambiguity that’s present. And that happened to be the physics in this case.

I suggest you know what the hell you are talking about before shooting your mouth off like that.

Originally posted by Sado22
you weren't around when he would flame people left and right for no reason.

What I’m talking about is in this thread, where the majority of the insulting and actual flames seem to be coming from you. The other threads, even if he did start flaming, those that you mentioned earlier are moot, they’re completely different discussions. I’m talking about this thread. Now.

Remy’s restrained himself from ‘flaming left and right’ here, you apparently cannot hold back. Even I can see this.
Sarcasm and goading aren’t regarded as flaming. Trolling, possibly, but not flaming.

And having seen your sensitivity regarding your opinion of ‘flaming’, I’m starting to doubt that all of them actually merited as flaming after all.

Originally posted by Sado22
quite frankly, you're starting to annoy me now. me asking him to prove Ken has throws is sort of a jab at his annoying habit of asking me to prove that Paul has certain throws

People are so sensitive sometimes. This is exactly why I doubt your opinion when it comes to flaming you.

You asking him to prove Ken has throws is just that, a direct question. If it was a rhetorical question, then make it glass clear that it is. Don’t expect people to take it your way if it’s worded so that the context of the statement makes it look as if it were a literal question. Which is the way I saw it.

You see, sarcasm is considerably more difficult to detect with bare text and no smilies to indicate such.

Originally posted by Sado22
and one more thing: i've ignored his 'making fun of logic' on countless occassions. this was the first time i responded in a long time.

If he makes fun of your logic, learn to fix it up so there’s no way he can. I myself don’t like misuse of logic either. He simply is more forthcoming about it than I am.

Originally posted by Sado22
youtube>>>julia t4 ending

Evaded maybe, but not dodged. Case over.

Shut .... The hell up, before this gets ugly, if this turnes into a flame war between the two of you trying to create the others stupidity, I will report you two.

its okay fortress...its takes a lot more to get me to counter flame.

Asking me such a question is pointless, Sado. I’m not a mind reader. I’ve already said before that I don’t possess a massive wealth of knowledge of either the Tekken or the Street Fighter lore, franchise or worlds. I’ve played them on numerous occasions and Wikipedia’d the background on my preferred characters in both games, but that’s it.
Who knows why things are a bit different? I sure as hell don’t, I don’t know the motives or plotline behind it. As long as it is licensed by Capcom, it should be a legitimate source. Unless there is direct, irrefutable evidence that there is a contradiction between game-to-media transit, which there really shouldn’t be anyway. I doubt Capcom is stupid enough to let people run away with a contract to do whatever they wish

I already did, Sado. A lot of them aren’t really even classified as true flaming, just pestersome sidesnips at your logic. I see a lot of it

While it is annoying, try not to be so quick as to automatically tag it as a flame.

Like that thing with the cyborg, where you conveniently forgot a rather important circumstance regarding the fight with Ken in it. And scorning the actual move itself as well.

and who is doing the downplaying now? and I've said time and time agian that Ken is faster and he'll put up a great fight. I just don't think he'll win because power, experience and other abilities (throws and counters) are not with him.
I wasn't the one coming out here saying Paul gets f--ked etc.

So is the case with Remy downplaying Paul as well. Let’s face it, you’re both very biased and zealous on this topic. Or on Tekken and Street Fighter in general.

A hasty assumption and an incorrect one at that.

And no, I’m not unfamiliar with debating in this forum either. Because I don’t join in 90% doesn’t mean I don’t observe at times either. I don’t jump in for the sake of things, I come into it only if I know if someone’s wrong about something or an ambiguity that’s present. And that happened to be the physics in this case.

That doesn’t concern me, Sado. That’s a circumstantial attack. For no reason? I doubt that he had no reason to do it. He had to have some reason to do something that extreme, whether it is a stupid one or a justified one. See, this is what I’m talking about when you exaggerate like that

What I’m talking about is in this thread, where the majority of the insulting and actual flames seem to be coming from you. The other threads, even if he did start flaming, those that you mentioned earlier are moot, they’re completely different discussions. I’m talking about this thread. Now

If I’m starting to annoy you when I haven’t actually directly insulted you, then that’s not my problem, is it? Saying that I’m annoying won’t help it, it goads me on if anything. It’s a cliché move. Paul’s moves doesn’t concern me at all, why bring them up? It’s not what I’m addressing here

You asking him to prove Ken has throws is just that, a direct question. If it was a rhetorical question, then make it glass clear that it is. Don’t expect people to take it your way if it’s worded so that the context of the statement makes it look as if it were a literal question. Which is the way I saw it.

If he makes fun of your logic, learn to fix it up so there’s no way he can. I myself don’t like misuse of logic either. He simply is more forthcoming about it than I am.

Evaded maybe, but not dodged. Case over

and cut back on the preaching in ur next reply 🙂

~Sado

What hatred.... Be friends dammit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Sado22
remy is in total denial. its painfully obvious by now. i don't like to say this since Darko is my friend, but Darko too seems to be in denial. There are many instances where they have no way of proving their claims (ken can shatter rocks and his moves having more priority) and they have no rebuttal against my comment that Paul has bonebreaking throws and holds (which comes directly from his movelist).
my logic isn't flawed. i don't intend to sound arrogant but from what i've seen no it isn't. No matter what I said on this forum I have, at least from my own analogies and reasoning, PROOF of what I'm saying. Be it Iori's godtiers status (proof comes from Vice and Mature's comments, to his showing and official arts that I've posted here) or be it Tekken characters and their showing of ability. I have proof.

I was going to let this go Sado, but you drag me back in.

Paul hasn't Demonstrated bonebreaking officially...since Namco has never shown it in story 😉

Ken's moves send people flying over huge distances, therefore bonebreaking can easily be applied, same with ACTUAL burning of the opponent.

If Ken can send huge guys like Zangief and Hugo vast distances, then his strength is without question.

Your proof? You attack other peoples sources, credibility and whatnot, you run with whatever showing suits you, and you maliciously force it into everyones faces...

Is this going too be a three-way war?

Originally posted by FortressXRuler
Is this going too be a three-way war?

No, if they just didn't let thier emotions get the best of them, this wouldn't have happened. And I thought this thread would be intresting.

Fortress, it's cool dude,as long as this doesn't reach into real flaming, and remains on topic, then there's no rulebreaking.

Originally posted by FortressXRuler
Shut .... The hell up, before this gets ugly, if this turnes into a flame war between the two of you trying to create the others stupidity, I will report you two.

Report threatening doesn't work on me here.

Originally posted by Sado22
its okay fortress...its takes a lot more to get me to counter flame.

However, as I said before, flaming is flaming. Still against the rules, isn’t it?

Originally posted by Sado22
exactly. this is why comics and the animes are to be banned from a debate because they are unreliable in their showings.

Unreliable in their showings? You haven’t told me exactly when and where something directly contradicts the game itself or other pieces of information included in the mangas, anime, or movie. I asked this earlier and you still haven’t replied with anything.

Once you give me some pieces of evidence that Shin Remy cannot possibly refute or explain, then I will believe you. As ludicrous as this request sounds.

Originally posted by Sado22
for the record, since tiamat's FAQ directly states that anime and canon are not canon. He gets his info from direct interviews etc. etc. etc.
hence comics and animes are not to be included.

The storylines are checked over by Capcom of Japan and approved, but that doesn't mean it's canon.

Furthermore, he/she also writes:

…and there are many
details in it where Udon (the comic's creators) ask for details from Capcom regarding various things.

Since when has abilities, personalities, and achievements in outside media have contradicted that of those that of in game? And if not, despite backside-covering claims of non-canon, why shouldn’t they be regarded as an authentic source?

Originally posted by Sado22
i get your point.
here is mine:
repeated pokes at a body part eventually start to hurt i guess. repeated jabs at the head can lead to a KO. repeated sidesnips can result in flame.

However, it’s not a good idea to pretend that flaming back after being bugged repeatedly is justified. Like I said, flaming is flaming.

Originally posted by Sado22
when it goes overboard...i will.

Flaming isn’t a matter of opinion, at least to the moderators. It’s either flaming or it’s not. In many cases it’s not, it’s simply a matter of the so called ‘victim’ either being too sensitive or too readily aggressive about it.

That still doesn’t change the fact that you reacted in a very immature matter, does it? Justifying this kind of action doesn’t work.

Originally posted by Sado22
and who is doing the downplaying now? and I've said time and time agian that Ken is faster and he'll put up a great fight. I just don't think he'll win because power, experience and other abilities (throws and counters) are not with him.

For example: you’re asking for proof that Ken, as a fictional character, has the ability to break bones. This is nonsense, it doesn’t need proof. I have the ability to break other people’s bones. You have the ability to break other people’s bones. I haven’t done it before but it does not means that I cannot do it if I wanted to. Remember that the Ansatsuken art is typically for assassination.

You honestly believe that Gouken, in all his wisdom, will fail to teach how to disable an opponent in that fashion?
You honestly believe that in all those years of training, they’ve only learned relatively a few moves?

In a realistic physical fight without game hindrances, he is capable of breaking bones. I’ve not a doubt about it.

And another thing: it’s this silly fame/game/spirit argument you two have. Both Paul and Ken have experienced fame on about the same levels, both have been down and tried out new lifestyles, both have picked up the reins and started again once in a while. I see no fundamental difference between the two. I’m seeing bigger and bigger claims of fame and reputation and achievements. Your claim earlier that Paul lives for the fight is a little exaggerative. He got tired and depraved after inheriting that big company fortune, starts partying, gets bored because he isn’t adjusted or used to that kind of lifestyle. How’s this translate to living for the fight?

Time and time again? You’ve said it maybe once. One being just now.
As for certain types of abilities and characteristics, those might give Paul a deadly advantage at certain times (such as extreme close range) but on the other hand, don’t expect Ken to be so stupid as to know how to counter and use his jumping ability and speed to avoid that happening. Also, just because Ken does not have nearly as much throws (he has counters like every other character in the Street Fighter games that momentarily give him a split second to utilize a move) or grappling moves shown as Paul does not mean that he simply loses because of that. There are more ways to win a fight than just raw strength alone. And Paul is definitely strong and proud of it.

What use is huge damage punches if you’re not going to hit anyone with them?

Originally posted by Sado22
I wasn't the one coming out here saying Paul gets f--ked etc.

I don’t see how you could take that so hostile, seeing as how you’re apparently used to it by now from what you’ve said earlier. Why the rant on disrespect? Many people have come in here and offered reasonable, if brief, opinions that they thought Ken would win against Paul as well.

Originally posted by Sado22
i give credit where i feel its due. And i have given you no oppurtunity to claim otherwise...unless you've been reading things in a negative light.

One other thing:

people, please. ken is a THREE time US champ

Originally posted by Sado22
you're the only one who seems to be in a rush to point fingers at people. read over my line again. i said "I GUESS".

I said that it was a ‘hasty assumption, and an incorrect one at that’, did I not? That doesn’t constitute pointing fingers, at all.
Assumption, guess, whatever. It’s still wrong. As far as I’m concerned here you’re pretty much just covering your own backside after a very silly comment.

I didn’t immediately start pointing fingers, remember? I started asking to make clear what the subject was, such as asking someone to link me the Julia video, and only took out those parts which I believed to be wrong. Again, another hasty, incorrect inference.

Originally posted by Sado22
you jumped in with the physics....yes. but you haven't replied to what i said either.

I don’t believe something should be denied as a source in a debate unless it directly contradicts that of which is considered official lore. And that is what I have asked as well as the physics regarding the so-called Julia bullet dodge.

Originally posted by Sado22
well if the childish thought process of a person flaming others because they think 3D fighters are equal to 2D and this person doesn't think so is a "reason" to you, then fine, yes, he didn't do it without a reason.

Childish or not, Remy has provided his points even if they’re annoying to read and according to you, are ‘lame one liners’ that you feel shouldn’t even be in existence. Said it yourself earlier on. Since when did you claim a monopoly over what others say?

Originally posted by Sado22
aside from teh STFU i don't recall any.

“unless you've got your head up your hole”
“you're one to talk "jab boy".

And those were from me simply skimming quickly through each page for insults, not even bothering to read closely. This is supposed to be a debate, Sado, not some house yard where base insults are hurled around like a spoiled child throwing crabapples at a neighbor’s cat.

Originally posted by Sado22
i am not the only one who seems to be annoyed. fortress mentioned something along the lines here if i recall correct. my annoyance stems from the fact that you are telling me to stop accusing people and being hasty and being biased when:
-you came in this thread quite later on but seem quick to point fingers at people. me in particular

I came into this thread later on but immediately I saw two things I didn’t like, an extremely naïve sweeping generalization from you and Darkstorm’s faulty logic regarding legitimate moves and abilities. I just happened to quote you both times. I don’t start jumping into a debate replying to every single post that even remotely looks hostile.

You in particular? Did you, perhaps, see the rather cold exchange between me, and Fortress? I replied to you maybe two or three times before the actual debate even started. You’re seeing this all wrong. I didn’t start pointing at you right off the bat, only when you said something I disagreed with. That isn’t quick and that isn’t singling you out immediately. I don’t know you or Remy, I’ve debated against Darkstorm before. I consider myself generally unbiased in this case, at least to either side of the debaters.

And no, thinking that Ken will probably win does not make me biased.

Originally posted by Sado22
-you misunderstood the bulk of whats going on (the darkstrom bit)

However, I do have two eyes in my head and they can quite plainly see you getting riled up and Remy and Darkstorm, and you insulting as a result, which is why I lectured you for it in the first place.

Originally posted by Sado22
-your hasty in all your judgements, frankly see, this is what my previous point was. if you had followed this debate you'd have known whats going on here. but no. you came around here and started lecturing me on the "ethics of accusations".

See, I don’t know you but earlier on you weren’t exactly making a great impression for yourself, were you? And you ask me why I judge so quickly? It doesn’t take much to see one person remaining relatively calm and one person overreacting, and to make an inference from it.

You even go so far as to scornfully correct Remy’s spelling earlier. That alone lowered whatever respect I had for you considerably. That to me is one of the poorest and lamest debating tactics and should only ever been used if someone with much poorer grammar than you accuses you of being a bad speller, which I did not see Remy doing. Honestly, what kind of impression did you think you were going to make?

Originally posted by Remy22
fourth is something that just a personal annoyance and i don't hold it against you but i'll say it:
-i hate people who go around preaching and lecturing people in how they should think and do things

I suggest you deal with it or curb it because hey, telling me that I’m annoying would be about as useful as a dead rotten fish up a tree. I personally find lots of people that I debate with annoying but I don’t throw it in their face as if it actually mattered.

Originally posted by Sado22
remy is in total denial. its painfully obvious by now.

This is a case of grass calling the leaf green.
You are both in total denial of the other here.

Originally posted by Sado22
my logic isn't flawed. i don't intend to sound arrogant but from what i've seen no it isn't. No matter what I said on this forum I have, at least from my own analogies and reasoning, PROOF of what I'm saying. I have proof.

Is that your logical reasoning? Your proof? It’s lacking, Sado.

That’s a lot like me claiming Paul can’t kick a soccer ball because no one’s ever seen him done it. Of course he can do it. It’s physically possible, and so is Ken breaking bones; seeing Ken’s kind of strength and dexterity.

Originally posted by Sado22
care to explain how? in the light of:
-the sound

To refute your earlier statement on how bullets don’t travel instantaneously:
Yes, you are correct, bullets don’t travel instantaneously. A Macmillian Sniper Rifle’s bullet takes 1.7 seconds to reach its target from about two kilometers downrange.

The thing is, the guy who was holding a gun on her was at point-blank range. And the screen behind her was merely about three, four meters at the most. A typical 9mm handgun fires bullets at 440 meters per second and that’s pretty slow for a gun. Do the math. To dodge a bullet at that range she would technically have to move slightly slower than the bullet.

She has 0.0091 seconds to move before that bullet hits her.

Does she appear to move that fast to you? No. Not even remotely close. The only explanation is that she was already completely out of the line of fire when the shot went off.

Originally posted by Sado22
-the impact of the bullet
explain it all in connection to when she jumped. Then I'll believe you.

All I had to do here was capture the exact instant the bullet hits in a picture. Seeing how I explained above that it was relatively instantaneous to us for the bullet to travel such a small distance, you can see she’s clearly out of the way by the time the shot is fired.

Took the liberty of applying some labels to eliminate any lack of clarity.

Convinced?

Originally posted by Sado22
and cut back on the preaching in ur next reply 🙂

You seem to take things a little too extreme sometimes, Sado. Apparently to the point where you’re telling me that I can’t talk the way I usually do. This is how I debate, Sado, like it or not. I don’t care if you hate it, I don’t care if you love it, it’s the way I debate and I’ll change on my own will, not that of yours or anyone else’s, moderators excluded.

You already told Remy to cut his one-liners and now you’re telling me to cut back on my attitude, whatever.

What a load of ridiculousness. Really.

I’m not going to be baited with such a silly comment, so I’ll just say this. You have absolutely no right over how I talk or the manner in which I do. As long as I’m following the rules. Telling me to stop whatever mannerism I like to adopt is like throwing pebbles down a deep well. It’s pointless.

😆 Ya'll gotta chill the f*ck out. & I make fun of Terry far more than you do Sado 😠

I would like to point out that I havn't directly flame anyone in this thread. I have not called anyone anything.

And yes, it's true, I did debate against DarkC, and I'll admit it here and now, I was wrong that time, since I didn't say it there.

I should go back and stamp my that comment in the actual thread though.

It actually amazes me, but now that I've had time to cool down anmd look at the thread,I realise how much of a hot headed turd I was back then.

By the way...Sado said Ken was a 3 Time US martial arts champion because of certain members claiming Ken was a 10 time martial arts champion. I don't blame him for getting the facts straight.

By the way Dark C...How did Shin Remy downplay Paul & over rate Ken? Not that I'm saying he didn't...but you stated both of them did...and then just concentrated on Sado's under/over rating.

Darkstorm you're not alone. A lot of members are aware of Sado's over/under rating tendencies. I see him being David fighting Goliath. It isn't easy to argue when people just claim certain SFer will beat a certain Tekken character because that person strictly believes SFer > Tekken. There are a lot of people here that think in that manner here...and it can get annoying.

And before I am quoted for this...I am generalizing SFer & Tekken. Same applies to KOF, FF...you name it.

Paul hasn't Demonstrated bonebreaking officially...since Namco has never shown it in story
Ken's moves send people flying over huge distances, therefore bonebreaking can easily be applied, same with ACTUAL burning of the opponent.
If Ken can send huge guys like Zangief and Hugo vast distances, then his strength is without question.

Unreliable in their showings? You haven’t told me exactly when and where something directly contradicts the game itself or other pieces of information included in the mangas, anime, or movie. I asked this earlier and you still haven’t replied with anything.

That doesn’t make sense. If Capcom does check it over and says it’s good, that should make it canon. That’s pretty much what standardizing is, don’t forget that. It still is a legitimate source to rely on

That basically says that it’s a legitimate source to call upon in discussions, isn’t it? I read further and he says a big reason why it’s claimed to be non-canon is the language distinctions between the two. Uden used Americanized language instead of the Japanese original. Ansatsuken became Shotokan.
Since when has abilities, personalities, and achievements in outside media have contradicted that of those that of in game? And if not, despite backside-covering claims of non-canon, why shouldn’t they be regarded as an authentic source?

However, it’s not a good idea to pretend that flaming back after being bugged repeatedly is justified. Like I said, flaming is flaming.

Flaming isn’t a matter of opinion, at least to the moderators. It’s either flaming or it’s not. In many cases it’s not, it’s simply a matter of the so called ‘victim’ either being too sensitive or too readily aggressive about it. That still doesn’t change the fact that you reacted in a very immature matter, does it? Justifying this kind of action doesn’t work.

For example: you’re asking for proof that Ken, as a fictional character, has the ability to break bones. This is nonsense, it doesn’t need proof. I have the ability to break other people’s bones. You have the ability to break other people’s bones. I haven’t done it before but it does not means that I cannot do it if I wanted to. Remember that the Ansatsuken art is typically for assassination.
You honestly believe that Gouken, in all his wisdom, will fail to teach how to disable an opponent in that fashion?
You honestly believe that in all those years of training, they’ve only learned relatively a few moves?
In a realistic physical fight without game hindrances, he is capable of breaking bones. I’ve not a doubt about it

And another thing: it’s this silly fame/game/spirit argument you two have. Both Paul and Ken have experienced fame on about the same levels, both have been down and tried out new lifestyles, both have picked up the reins and started again once in a while. I see no fundamental difference between the two. I’m seeing bigger and bigger claims of fame and reputation and achievements. Your claim earlier that Paul lives for the fight is a little exaggerative. He got tired and depraved after inheriting that big company fortune, starts partying, gets bored because he isn’t adjusted or used to that kind of lifestyle. How’s this translate to living for the fight?

As for certain types of abilities and characteristics, those might give Paul a deadly advantage at certain times (such as extreme close range) but on the other hand, don’t expect Ken to be so stupid as to know how to counter and use his jumping ability and speed to avoid that happening. Also, just because Ken does not have nearly as much throws (he has counters like every other character in the Street Fighter games that momentarily give him a split second to utilize a move) or grappling moves shown as Paul does not mean that he simply loses because of that. There are more ways to win a fight than just raw strength alone. And Paul is definitely strong and proud of it.

these three things are what mainly matters in a fight. speed, power and experience. Paul has 2/3. I didn't even get into the throws, counters and reversals.

No one did, some people were saying that he’d get pwned, etc. That’s not nearly as disrespectful as if some actually did say he’s f—ked.

Yes, maybe for Paul but in my opinion you’ve still not given Ken whatever credit he deserves. If you had wanted to you would have acceded to his own talents in your very first post in this thread, but when I read it, it reeks of downplay on Ken’s part.

He did won three in a row in the US. Consecutively. Apparently he won most others before that too.

~Sado

Replied to what, how the various comics and anime are different in what they present?

Childish or not, Remy has provided his points even if they’re annoying to read and according to you, are ‘lame one liners’ that you feel shouldn’t even be in existence. Said it yourself earlier on. Since when did you claim a monopoly over what others say?

That’s part of the problem here, Sado.

extremely naïve sweeping generalization from you

And no, thinking that Ken will probably win does not make me biased.

[quoteYes, but I don’t go in and tag labels on the first person I see for no reason at all.[/quote]
fine. that's just the impression i was getting.

You even go so far as to scornfully correct Remy’s spelling earlier. That alone lowered whatever respect I had for you considerably. That to me is one of the poorest and lamest debating tactics and should only ever been used if someone with much poorer grammar than you accuses you of being a bad speller, which I did not see Remy doing. Honestly, what kind of impression did you think you were going to make?

Anyways, denial of what, the ‘fact’ that Paul would, according to you, win

Hmm, let’s see. You claim that Ken cannot break bones because he is simply not seen to do so. I’ve explained why he should be able to, above.

That’s a lot like me claiming Paul can’t kick a soccer ball because no one’s ever seen him done it. Of course he can do it. It’s physically possible, and so is Ken breaking bones; seeing Ken’s kind of strength and dexterity.

THAT is the point, Dark C.

This one’s easy.

All I had to do here was capture the exact instant the bullet hits in a picture. Seeing how I explained above that it was relatively instantaneous to us for the bullet to travel such a small distance, you can see she’s clearly out of the way by the time the shot is fired.
Took the liberty of applying some labels to eliminate any lack of clarity.

By the way...Sado said Ken was a 3 Time US martial arts champion because of certain members claiming Ken was a 10 time martial arts champion. I don't blame him for getting the facts straight.
By the way Dark C...How did Shin Remy downplay Paul & over rate Ken? Not that I'm saying he didn't...but you stated both of them did...and then just concentrated on Sado's under/over rating.
Darkstorm you're not alone. A lot of members are aware of Sado's over/under rating tendencies. I see him being David fighting Goliath. It isn't easy to argue when people just claim certain SFer will beat a certain Tekken character because that person strictly believes SFer > Tekken. There are a lot of people here that think in that manner here...and it can get annoying.
And before I am quoted for this...I am generalizing SFer & Tekken. Same applies to KOF, FF...you name it.

~Sado

Originally posted by Sado22
at face level, yes it doesn't make sense. but like i said, just because capcom allowed them to take their idea it doesn't mean they'd let them govern the story as well. its like they are saying:
"take the story, but it doesn't matter what you do with it because OUR story is the real one".

Saying something like “take the story but it doesn’t matter what you do with it” is like telling someone who worked particularly hard for a position at a job company that it was given to the boss’s son. It’s nothing but a façade of Capcom that covers their own behinds when it comes to plot.

Originally posted by Sado22
I believe that Ken may have throws of his own. but why this doesn't matter is this:
We've seen paul build burst of fire when he punches or kicks. Going by that logic we can say that Paul can throw those flames as well can we not?

In the Tekken 5 ending Paul was shown to use his “blazing” Phoenix Smasher to demolish a stone wall with a crudely drawn picture of an alien on it. So far is it shows, it does not show much as a lick of flame surrounding his hand.

Originally posted by Sado22
Ken pulling off, say, a arm bar is not out of question. I know. However, he has never been shown to do it.......which only leads to speculation.

So can Ken, even though he hasn’t been shown. It’s just speculatory whether he will choose to. I don’t think he will get much of a chance because Paul’s not stupid or clumsy enough to give freebies out, but don’t go running around saying that Ken cannot break bones. What an absurd thing to say.

Originally posted by Sado22
Speculation, is unreliable. I could go around speculating what Paul may or may not do in a fight but at the end of the day i cannot back it up with a concrete proof. you get my point?

We’re talking about Ken’s ability to break bones or not in a real life fight against Paul here, not what he or Paul is going to do throughout the course of this fight. If I have the strength break someone’s arm, Ken sure as hell can. It’s what he can do, not what he will do or if he decides to.

Originally posted by Sado22
But i don't bring it up because he hasn't been shown to do so.
In all the anime and mangas that I've read on SF, Ken hasn't shown any ability to break bones with throws or holds. Hence its barred.

You’re still arguing that since he’s never been shown to break bones in the media and games he shouldn’t be allowed to have that ability in this debate. Wrong. What precisely, besides the fact that he’s never been seen doing it, makes you think that it is a barred issue?

Originally posted by Sado22
another reason why your claim holds less ground is because Ken, when it is all said and done, is not a judo practitioner. He isn't an expert in that art. Paul is. he excells at throws and holds hence, even if Ken CAN pull off a fancy throw, chances of him doing it successfully against Paul are thin.

The fact remains that this is not a judo or throwing match, it’s a one on one fight. Ken uses Ansatsuken, Paul with Judo or whatever he decides to utilize at the time. It is not a requirement for Ken to use Judo, only to fight with what he’s got. Even if Ken doesn’t know judo that good he doesn’t need it.

Originally posted by Sado22
You're wrong. Paul didn't try a new lifestyle. his ending was non-canon for T4 but it simply showed that at the end of the day he had too much fighter's pride to actually give it up for women and fame.

He inherited a massive fortune and company after he won the King of Iron Fist III, abandoning fighting for a bit, slowly decided to leave the process and decision making of the company to his employees. Spends days and nights partying.

Sounds a lot to me like a new lifestyle from his old one, which was pretty much just badass fighting. Dressing it up as you are right now isn’t helping at all. It’s not completely fighter’s pride that made him go back, though it was a big part of it. It’s also because he was unfamiliar with his new lifestyle and eventually became bored of it. He was though, missing the fight and eventually got back into his good old fighting spirit. See, this is what I’m talking about when I say you tend to overrate/underrate things, Sado. If I’m asking for evidence, I want facts. Not half-baked truths or dressed up dallying or dropping hints. Plain, simple, facts. One thing that annoys me is when people beat about the bush or start showing things in their light. Remy did it as well when you two were in that silly ‘fickle fame’ argument.

Originally posted by Sado22
THAT is what the ending showed.

As the video below says: “No trace of his valiant spirit remained”. This is when he was doing all this partying and whatnot.

Only when he actually sees a dojo and people practicing and a poster of him in his old outfit in a mock heroic pose, does he realize he really does miss his old life after all. There’s no hint of him thinking about it in the meantime, not at all.

YouTube video

Originally posted by Sado22
Ken on the other hand has never lived in poverty. He has been rich since he was a baby and is the second most richest man in the world.

He may have inherited the huge Masters fortune, but he doesn’t spend it like a spoiled brat. He’s been taught discipline. He settles for the basics. Paul, on the other hand, also inherited a massive fortune. He gave it up, true, but only after days and nights of partying his soul out. He’s not completely humble. However, he did miss his old fighting life and got back into it.

Originally posted by Sado22
Never said Ken was stupid to not try and evade those blows. Show me where i said that.

Originally posted by Sado22
In fact show me where i said that this fight is biased or too one sided. and while you're at it, show me where i said that Paul will win because he has power.

Don’t be so quick as to start pointing fingers about me accusing when I’ve done absolutely nothing of the sort. I address only the objective matters here.

If you’re going to start the typical semantics ‘show me where I said this’ rant, at least use the correct terminology. A physical fight can’t be ‘biased’, an opinion on the outcome of it can. Bias is the thing that prevents a unprejudiced, unaligned opinion. It doesn’t apply to a street fight itself, at all.

Originally posted by Sado22
Speed: without a doubt, Ken. Though Paul is my no mean a slow clutz. His agility in grappling and attacks is remarkable. You don't see a 6foot guy jump on your arm, twist and toss you away in a few seconds slow.

Originally posted by Sado22
-experience: Paul has been fighting since he was very young. He's 48 now. Paul takes this. these three things are what mainly matters in a fight. speed, power and experience. Paul has 2/3.

It isn’t a thing you can rely on like your speed or strength is, it’s a subjective matter. People think that they’ll beat someone in mental toughness simply resulting from because they have more experience. It shouldn’t matter. For example, Shang Tsung from the Mortal Kombat series had at least a few centuries worth of experience, and he still got beat by Liu Kang.

How’s Paul’s experience going to help him if he’s never, ever fought anyone quite like Ken with Ken’s abilities, speed, or style? Two out of three, that doesn’t mean anything. You’re comparing factors and counting them as if they were of equal value and independent of each other.

What use is strength if you don’t have the speed to utilize it effectively against your opponent? What use is agility if you’re too weak to do any real physical damage?
What use is experience if you cannot physically overcome your opponent anyway?

They’re like links in a chain.

Originally posted by Sado22
I didn't even get into the throws, counters and reversals.

Originally posted by Sado22
in my first post? was it the one where i was countering statements of people regarding Ken's feats?
well obviously it'd seem downplaying because i didn't even mention Ken. I was countering people's statements regarding Ken apparently effortless win because he beat a man who lifts rocks etc. etc.

You also conveniently forgot the passage in which you said, to the letter:

Ken's feats are winning a tourny with unheard, unnamed fighters and taking down school girls. not much accomplishments there.

This is clear as day, you’re downplaying Ken. You didn’t just play with fire, you soaked the match in gasoline. If you’re going to downplay Ken, nothing technically wrong with that, but don’t deny that you were as if you’re unbiased.

Originally posted by Sado22
i'm pretty sure you used my comment there. Ken is a three times US champ, yes, and not TEN times like the person i was replying to was saying. is that downplaying?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Masters

Originally posted by Sado22
no...the reply to my post where i was telling you that phsycis isn't too important in videogames.

It doesn’t make sense, at all.

Physics dictate what happens in a real-world fight, which is what I’m assuming here between Paul and Ken. Like I explained earlier to Fortress, if Ken had hit Paul with a shoryuken, for example, and Paul was falling headfirst, a single degree in angle could decide whether Paul gets a minor bruise on his head or winds up with a hairline fracture of the vertebrae.

Originally posted by Sado22
what points?

You can dismiss them as lame one-liners, but they’re technically still arguments of his.

Originally posted by Sado22
the first one, yes.
the second one....how is jabboy a flame (going by your logic and definition of it). and i was replying to an obvious sidesnip/flame on Darko's part.

Darkstorm has told me before to not run away with my imagination or something very closely along the lines of it and I personally don’t react to it very much.

Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack.

Originally posted by Sado22
as for the first one...that was in response to something, i'm sure.

Hence, all this pretty much shows that you’re acting like a bit of a hypocrite when you accuse others in this thread of flaming when they haven’t seriously done so like you have. Whatever happens in other threads stays there as far as I am concerned. Remy and Darkstorm have kept their cool for the most part. Why haven’t you?

Originally posted by Sado22
explain

Originally posted by Sado22
it's simple: I assume Ken can't because he was could only manage to break a cyborg's jaw with all the leaping light and the pillar of ki and the obvous strain of effort he put on himself since he lost consciousness right after it

Besides, he doesn’t need an entire boatload of strength to torque or put a decisively aimed blow and break something. See below strength argument.

Originally posted by Sado22
which is obvious Paul could since he shattered a boulder to bits and a wall to bits with a lot LESS effort.

You’re asking why I say that you’re biased, this is why. It’s almost starting to sound like, to me, that you’re bragging about Paul’s abilities. Repeating old arguments is not going to make other arguments any truer.

Originally posted by Sado22
for one, Paul has been shown kick a lot more than a soccer ball in his T1 ending. Paul was also shown breaking a tree in his T5 prologue.

You took my statement out of context too, assuming it literally when it should have been very clear that it was a random example based to explain how faulty your statement for proof was. Read my posts more carefully next time, as you did not appear to understand the first. Or second, for that matter.

Originally posted by Sado22
Ken breaking bones may or may not be a possibility. there is NO proof that he can.

Every single martial art out there, I don’t care if it’s Shotokan or Mantis, Shaolin Monkey or Wushu. Every martial art that extensively trains their students teaches human anatomy, where pressure points are, good places to strike, etc. Including skeletal structure. Hell, I’ve already said that I know a few ways of breaking an arm or dislocating a shoulder for that matter and I don’t have so much as a shred of training. Just by watching the likes of Tony Jaa or Jet Li.

It doesn’t take much training to know how. Whether he can do it against Paul in the actual fight itself remains to be seen, however.

Originally posted by Sado22
why? has ken shown the strength to do so? No

The beauty of some methods of breaking bones, even basic ones is that they require minimal strength, Sado. Ken, if he placed his blow or torquing hold on someone right, can break their leg/arm, whatever.

Originally posted by Sado22
-has ken actually done so? No

Simply because he’s not been seen to do so does not mean that it is physically impossible for Ken to break someone else’s bones. I’ve been repeating myself a lot this post and it looks like I’ll probably be doing it some more.

It’s not an uncertainty, Sado. Ordinary people like you and I can break other people’s bones without needing training. What makes you so uncertain that it is possible for Ken to do it?

Originally posted by Sado22
-has Ken at least been hinted to do so? No
THAT is the point, Dark C.

No, you haven’t contributed anything for this part of the argument here Sado, let alone providing a clear and concise point, except present repetitive examples of false logic and silly reasoning.

You are not explaining anything here. I am.

Originally posted by Sado22
try that one again.....BEFORE the spark comes. then perhaps you'll see my point.

Exact instant shot is fired. Her feet are very clearly already off the floor in the midst of a backflip.

I rest my case. Evaded, not dodged. Julia may be fast, but not that fast.

So can Ken, even though he hasn’t been shown. It’s just speculatory whether he will choose to. I don’t think he will get much of a chance because Paul’s not stupid or clumsy enough to give freebies out, but don’t go running around saying that Ken cannot break bones. What an absurd thing to say

No, Paul can’t. It’s only a fancy game gimmick. If this were the case I could use this false reasoning to say that Ken’s blows are so strong he causes clouds of dust to rise up off his opponent’s body every time he connects, which is of course a pile of complete nonsense.
In the Tekken 5 ending Paul was shown to use his “blazing” Phoenix Smasher to demolish a stone wall with a crudely drawn picture of an alien on it. So far is it shows, it does not show much as a lick of flame surrounding his hand.

There’s nothing speculatory about this, Sado. I can break bones, you can too. He can do it, period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It’s just a matter of if he does use it.
So can Ken, even though he hasn’t been shown. It’s just speculatory whether he will choose to. I don’t think he will get much of a chance because Paul’s not stupid or clumsy enough to give freebies out, but don’t go running around saying that Ken cannot break bones. What an absurd thing to say.

We’re talking about Ken’s ability to break bones or not in a real life fight against Paul here, not what he or Paul is going to do throughout the course of this fight. If I have the strength break someone’s arm, Ken sure as hell can. It’s what he can do, not what he will do or if he decides to.

Precisely, Sado. I’m not arguing that Ken can outthrow Paul. I never said that. Why do you bring this up? We’re talking about the ability of breaking bones at the moment, not throws. Nobody has to be an expert in judo to break bones. I sure as hell am not, I don’t have a minute’s training in martial arts and I know how to break someone else’s arm in multiple ways.
The fact remains that this is not a judo or throwing match, it’s a one on one fight. Ken uses Ansatsuken, Paul with Judo or whatever he decides to utilize at the time. It is not a requirement for Ken to use Judo, only to fight with what he’s got. Even if Ken doesn’t know judo that good he doesn’t need it.

So he never tried a new lifestyle even momentarily? Um, yes he did. And since when did an ending taken from the in-game ending itself prove to be non-canon? Utter nonsense.

He inherited a massive fortune and company after he won the King of Iron Fist III, abandoning fighting for a bit, slowly decided to leave the process and decision making of the company to his employees. Spends days and nights partying.

Sounds a lot to me like a new lifestyle from his old one, which was pretty much just badass fighting. Dressing it up as you are right now isn’t helping at all. It’s not completely fighter’s pride that made him go back, though it was a big part of it. It’s also because he was unfamiliar with his new lifestyle and eventually became bored of it. He was though, missing the fight and eventually got back into his good old fighting spirit. See, this is what I’m talking about when I say you tend to overrate/underrate things, Sado. If I’m asking for evidence, I want facts. Not half-baked truths or dressed up dallying or dropping hints. Plain, simple, facts. One thing that annoys me is when people beat about the bush or start showing things in their light. Remy did it as well when you two were in that silly ‘fickle fame’ argument.

No, it showed him in that company, walking out and partying with women. Fighter’s pride? What fighter’s pride? That’s nothing but an inference. Stick with the facts and what we know here, Sado.

Wait, wait, wait. Just because he doesn’t ‘live in poverty’ does not mean that he has a lavish lifestyle by any means. His parents sent him off to study martial arts primarily because they didn’t want him to be a spoilt brat. While he didn’t live in poverty while he was with Gouken, neither did he live in comfort.