Doomsday vs Thanos

Started by leonidas21 pages
Originally posted by darthgoober
😎

i still believe that the beams DID affect g -- maybe they . . . partially erased him, hence the watered-down colouring which was clearly intentional? anyway, interpret as you will. 🙂 it's always been funny to me that thanos was able to apparently 'damage' g like he did, but odin casually withstood many more blasts and never once looked like he was hurt at all.

Really? What evidence is there to suggest that the "erasing effect" is all that powerful? I've been trying to get an example of DS successfully using against a top tier for a while now, and I haven't been shown a single example of it yet. That's not to say that his OE isn't incredibly useful and handy to have against those of a lower tier, but I haven't seen him erase anyone of note personally.

about the best erasing feat i know of is agogg, who pretty handily whooped down orion and lightray at the same time. that's a very powerful combo. but it's also ko'd pre-c monel as well as a number of top tier guys including both superman and orion. the fact that supes has resisted the OE has sorta been blown out of proportion. the OE has affected superman very badly on MANY occasions and orion too. there's a scene in new gods where he is using it to wipe out various unrevealed 'gods' but their levels are never mentioned nor are their faces shown. could thanos's blasts do the same? likely. in terms of sheer 'power output' they are both likely the same. the OE is simply much more versatile, which is why i'd take it over the standard blasts that thanos offers.

The plot device I was referring to was her all of the sudden drawing her power from hyperspace, and being able to take down guys like Celestials and Galactus. So I guess her power itself may not be a plot device, but her power SOURCE(which is what allows her to do that kind of thing) certainly is. And Galactus himself said that he'd NEVER had to exert himself the way he did to blast though Thanos's shields, so if Sue's withstood him he was either a whole lot weaker(understandable since he was pretty well fed against Thanos), or he just wasn't trying as hard against her.

maybe. then again hulk was the toughest guy superman ever fought too. 😉 regardless, it's still speculatory regarding the nature of sue's power though. nate guessed that she may draw power from hyperspace. and even if it is derived from hyperspce, the feat is no less impressive and penetrating his armor AND body>scuffing his armor.

I was honestly unaware of those instances you mentioned(sounds like something I'll have to check out), but destroying the armor is still something that DS was unable to do.

but partially erasing g (which is how i interpret the colouring scheme in that scene) was something thanos couldn't do. and impressing galactus was also something thanos coudln't do. 🙂

Originally posted by Wally West
Can anyone find another example of Galactus being blasted and sent a thousand+ feet away? And it phased him enough to immediately want Thanos dead, his helmet wasn't just taken off but also broke in places, and his body armour was cracked in places, thats a good feat however you want to look at it. And it wasn't a sneak attack as Galactus knew he was there and they'd exchanged dialogue.

Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter knocked the quantum mechanic off of his balance. quantum mechanics are superior to imps. So should thier feat say that they are more powerful than Thanos since they knocked an angry zealot over? I dont' remember him being harmed so I don't count the feat. Same thing with Thanos. Big G wasn't harmed so the feat doesn't count.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter knocked the quantum mechanic off of his balance. quantum mechanics are superior to imps. So should thier feat say that they are more powerful than Thanos since they knocked an angry zealot over? I dont' remember him being harmed so I don't count the feat. Same thing with Thanos. Big G wasn't harmed so the feat doesn't count.
the feat doesnt count. but u count all of ds feats in the far off future that prolly wont come to pass. 😆

Originally posted by quanchi112
the feat doesnt count. but u count all of ds feats in the far off future that prolly wont come to pass. 😆

you idiot. They all came to pass. All in continuity.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
you idiot. They all came to pass. All in continuity.
dont u hear of reboots. dc discounts shit all the time. gds proves how ineffective ds is then in the future if u want it so badly. he really accomplishes nothing of note and is pretty much forgotten about. he comes back steals powers amnd gets a new army. army of 3 billion. loses it and runs away. thats ds for u. wow that was so impressive. 😆

Originally posted by quanchi112
dont u hear of reboots. dc discounts shit all the time. gds proves how ineffective ds is then in the future if u want it so badly. he really accomplishes nothing of note and is pretty much forgotten about. he comes back steals powers amnd gets a new army. army of 3 billion. loses it and runs away. thats ds for u. wow that was so impressive. 😆

He doesn't steal power. He Takes it with one of his very famous abilities. He still isn't as powerful as his younger self. The younger self proves to be more powerful than Old Ds, the power of the abstract mordru, and the abstract Time trapper combined. Talk about power. You can't deny this. No one can.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He doesn't steal power. He Takes it with one of his very famous abilities. He still isn't as powerful as his younger self. The younger self proves to be more powerful than Old Ds, the power of the abstract mordru, and the abstract Time trapper combined. Talk about power. You can't deny this. No one can.
so absorbing someons power isnt stealing it. oh then what is it? ds has been a thiref of other peoples powers from day one. he has always been a thief. its just with all the stealing he does he cant ever pull anything amazing out of it. he retreated in gds soon as he lost his advantage. talk about a coward. 😆

Originally posted by quanchi112
so absorbing someons power isnt stealing it. oh then what is it? ds has been a thiref of other peoples powers from day one. he has always been a thief. its just with all the stealing he does he cant ever pull anything amazing out of it. he retreated in gds soon as he lost his advantage. talk about a coward. 😆

They are all laughing at you.

[QUOTE=9230764]Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
[B]They are all laughing at you. [/Bpeople hated you on other forums. and that u lurked around here. he has you on his profile with ur quote as he is laughing at u. so quit with the popular stuff and i dont care. its pathetic that u keep bringing it up. 😆 stick to the topic. im tired of hearing about the movie carrie here. go to the horror forum and talk about it there. 😆

Originally posted by darthgoober
They may be about even strength wise, but I've yet to see anything from Lobo to suggest equal durability. Lobo gets hurt A LOT more than Supes, it's just that he heals from it.
Lobo has beaten Superman before, and supposedly lifted something that had the weight of a universe. I'm not sure if it's true, but who knows.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He DOES have every right to, but when he does it doesn't really support your arguement that it's "in character" for him to resort to what I've already shown him to consider a "cheap" win now does it?
He only stated that he doesn't use his "cheap win" tactics, in Doomsday annual. In that Bryne's story you posted, it was OBVIOUS that he was alot weaker than his average portrayal. Meaning there's no proof Ds WAS holding back, and that it was more likely that he was simply jobbing. Not only that, but Seid said his avatars can be beaten if the opponent is strong enough.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Supes DID recently pwn Despero, and I don't really see him having much trouble with Superboy, Robin, Impulse, Arrowette, and Wondergirl at the same time either.
Correction, Superman with Dc stroking his cock, pwned Despero. Now that proves how much of a jobber aura he has, rather than how powerful he is. Supes has had his ass beaten before by Despero, and I believe it was more than once. So why is it that somehow, the more recent portrayal of Superman, with the ridiculous showings, can pwn Despero? 🙄 And one more thing, Superboy was among the few, who were defeated by Secret.
http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=secret9zm.jpg
http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=secret18cb.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wtf are you talking about? I already told you(several times in fact) that the Byrne incident is being used for personality analysis, not power indication. That means that I'm NOT USING IT TO BASE DARKSEID'S LEVEL OF POWER ON. I'm using it as an example of DS exhibiting a sense of "honor".
Yeah I know were basing his character off it, rather than his power. But the point I was trying to make is, Ds WAS NOT holding back, for the avatar can be beaten be by lesser beings. Meaning you can't say it's in character for him not use is full powerset, when he really is(an avatar, not Ds).

Originally posted by darthgoober
Except that he had already attempted to USE the OE on Supes before at that point unsuccessfully, so he knew that it wasn't outside of Supes ability to deal with it(which means that it wouldn't be a "cheap" tactic". After all Supes uses energy attacks(heatvision) in his fights with DS, so I can see why DS wouldn't consider it to be "cheating" for him to do the same against Supes. Think about it, Doomsday was only using h2h attacks when he was first tearing through DS's army, so DS said that honor demanded h2h combat. Supes has ranged attacks, flight, and super speed so it makes sense for DS to cut loose at little bit more(since it's not dishonorable for him to do so).
And he's still used the Oe on beings, who are close to Superman in power. Orion, Agogg, Martian Manhunter, and Lobo can be effected, but Superman a character much more popular can? If so, then Supes can make short work, of everbody I just listed? Here's the truth, it's not durability that makes Superman immune to the Omegas, it's his jobber aura. 🙂

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not necessary for DS, it's just necessary for him to do it so that it will prove YOUR point(the point being that it's "in character" for him to do so under those circumstances).
No that wasn't my point, MY point was that Ds didn't need much effort to defeat Blasfemy in the first place, so why do anything else other than simply blast him?

Originally posted by darthgoober
So it wasn't actually DS? In that case, that particular instance seems to be irrelevant to a discussion about DS's sense of honor since IT'S ANOTHER CHARACTER.
Lmao, Desaad is nothing to Ds and when I say nothing I mean NOTHING. Yeah I know its abc logic, but in this case it works. 🙂
edit😮h and I already covered Ds's honor.

Originally posted by leonidas
i still believe that the beams DID affect g -- maybe they . . . partially erased him, hence the watered-down colouring which was clearly intentional? anyway, interpret as you will. 🙂 it's always been funny to me that thanos was able to apparently 'damage' g like he did, but odin casually withstood many more blasts and never once looked like he was hurt at all.

You have to remember, Thanos's powers were upgraded TWICE between his fight against Odin and his blasting Galactus.

Originally posted by leonidas
about the best erasing feat i know of is agogg, who pretty handily whooped down orion and lightray at the same time. that's a very powerful combo. but it's also ko'd pre-c monel as well as a number of top tier guys including both superman and orion. the fact that supes has resisted the OE has sorta been blown out of proportion. the OE has affected superman very badly on MANY occasions and orion too. there's a scene in new gods where he is using it to wipe out various unrevealed 'gods' but their levels are never mentioned nor are their faces shown. could thanos's blasts do the same? likely. in terms of sheer 'power output' they are both likely the same. the OE is simply much more versatile, which is why i'd take it over the standard blasts that thanos offers.

I'm not that familiar with Agogg so I can't really coment on that one(but I plan on looking into it now), but I'm not talking about it KOing somebody or it's versatility, I'm talking about the erasing effect itself. And unless I'm mistaken, those 'gods' you're talking about him wiping out were wiped out in the Great Darkness Saga, which is invalid by forum rules due to it being a future version of DS(I know because I checked with Digi).

Originally posted by leonidas
maybe. then again hulk was the toughest guy superman ever fought too. 😉 regardless, it's still speculatory regarding the nature of sue's power though. nate [b]guessed that she may draw power from hyperspace. and even if it is derived from hyperspce, the feat is no less impressive and penetrating his armor AND body>scuffing his armor. [/B]

But the fact that she draws her power from Hyperspace(the only logical explanation) means that her inflicting more damage is due more to the NATURE of her powers than the extent of her powers. The Human Torch could cause more damage to classic Despero or Martian Manhunter with a single fireblast than Hulk could with a single punch, but it's because those characters are more vulnerable to that type of attack rather than Torch being more powerful.

Originally posted by leonidas
but partially erasing g (which is how i interpret the colouring scheme in that scene) was something thanos couldn't do. and impressing galactus was also something thanos coudln't do. 🙂

Actually, Galactus WAS impressed by Thanos's tech. And since much of Thanos's tech is standard equipment to him. As for whether or not Big G was partially erased, we'll just have to agree to disagree because I'm not buying it since it was never even touched upon in the book(which makes it PURE speculation).

Originally posted by starking
Lobo has beaten Superman before, and supposedly lifted something that had the weight of a universe. I'm not sure if it's true, but who knows.

I already acknowledged that they were in the same strength class, but that still doesn't put them in the same durability class.

Originally posted by starking
He only stated that he doesn't use his "cheap win" tactics, in Doomsday annual. In that Bryne's story you posted, it was OBVIOUS that he was alot weaker than his average portrayal. Meaning there's no proof Ds WAS holding back, and that it was more likely that he was simply jobbing. Not only that, but Seid said his avatars can be beaten if the opponent is strong enough.

Except that after Supes had DS beaten, DS DID teleport Supes away(that's the safe trip home he was talking about). That means that he could have done that at anytime but didn't. So it still supports it being "in character" for him to try to throw down with Supes.

Originally posted by starking
Correction, Superman with Dc stroking his cock, pwned Despero. Now that proves how much of a jobber aura he has, rather than how powerful he is. Supes has had his ass beaten before by Despero, and I believe it was more than once. So why is it that somehow, the more recent portrayal of Superman, with the ridiculous showings, can pwn Despero? 🙄 And one more thing, Superboy was among the few, who were defeated by Secret.
http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=secret9zm.jpg
http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=secret18cb.jpg

And Secret being Despero was due to the nature of her powers rather than her actually being more powerful than Despero. I don't remember the exact details, but for some reason when he looked at her he saw the abyss or voiod or something like that and it pretty much reduced him to a quivering heap. That's hardly overpowering him, and is no indication that she's more powerful than Supes. And since I seriously doubt that Supes would have any trouble soloing Young Justice, that's not really any indication that she's more powerful than he is either.

Originally posted by starking
Yeah I know were basing his character off it, rather than his power. But the point I was trying to make is, Ds WAS NOT holding back, for the avatar can be beaten be by lesser beings. Meaning you can't say it's in character for him not use is full powerset, when he really is(an avatar, not Ds).

Except that I just pointed out that he DID have "cheap" tactics at his disposal in that fight.

Originally posted by starking
And he's still used the Oe on beings, who are close to Superman in power. Orion, Agogg, Martian Manhunter, and Lobo can be effected, but Superman a character much more popular can? If so, then Supes can make short work, of everbody I just listed? Here's the truth, it's not durability that makes Superman immune to the Omegas, it's his jobber aura. 🙂

Being close(or exceeding someone) in overall power isn't the same as being as durable. Storm's power far exceeds Wolverine's, but he's still A LOT more durable.

Originally posted by starking
No that wasn't my point, MY point was that Ds didn't need much effort to defeat Blasfemy in the first place, so why do anything else other than simply blast him?

You're right he didn't need to. But my point was that he doesn't like to use "cheap" tactics when he's bloodlusted. You forget that you weren't supposed to be hunting examples of his beating people, you were supposed to be hunting examples of his using his more exotic abilities to score a "cheap" win when he's bloodlusted.

Originally posted by starking
Oh and I already covered Ds's honor.

So have I, but you still haven't actually countered any of my points on the matter.

Double post.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You have to remember, Thanos's powers were upgraded TWICE between his fight against Odin and his blasting Galactus.

No... He got upgraded when he used THOTU and gave himself a powerboost... Where's this second upgrade your talking about?

Originally posted by King Kandy
No... He got upgraded when he used THOTU and gave himself a powerboost... Where's this second upgrade your talking about?

The Tyrant fight. Thanos wanted that orb to increase his power, and since he walked away with it in the end, it means that his power was increased to the levels it was when he took on Tyrant.

It is unknown what Thanos did with the orb.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It is unknown what Thanos did with the orb.

But it IS known that he wanted the orb to make himself more powerful, and at the end you see him hooking the orb up to what appears to be something that looks like a device to drain off the orbs power, so I think it's a pretty fair assumption that he used it to upgrade himself. After all, what else would he use it for since that's why he wanted the damn thing in the first place?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I already acknowledged that they were in the same strength class, but that still doesn't put them in the same durability class.
How can they not be in the same duribility class, when Lobo has manhandled him? You have to have duribility, to accompany your strength in such a way, I'm right am I not?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Except that after Supes had DS beaten, DS DID teleport Supes away(that's the safe trip home he was talking about). That means that he could have done that at anytime but didn't. So it still supports it being "in character" for him to try to throw down with Supes.
And he did that by opening a boomtube, rather than teleporting him with Oe. You do know that Superman deflected the omega effect, in that same story, and that there's no indication to how the avatar was holding back, right? I'm sure Superman was supposed to be outright superior to that avatar, instead of him being stronger than him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And Secret being Despero was due to the nature of her powers rather than her actually being more powerful than Despero. I don't remember the exact details, but for some reason when he looked at her he saw the abyss or voiod or something like that and it pretty much reduced him to a quivering heap. That's hardly overpowering him, and is no indication that she's more powerful than Supes. And since I seriously doubt that Supes would have any trouble soloing Young Justice, that's not really any indication that she's more powerful than he is either.
Yes that's true for Despero, however Secret was giving the combined power of Slobo, Red Tornadoe, Superboy, and Wondergirl hell, and I'm pretty sure that group is able to defeat Superman. Btw, Secret was going to end the world with her power, more evidence that proves she's above Superman.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Except that I just pointed out that he DID have "cheap" tactics at his disposal in that fight.
Not really, seeing how Supes turned the Oe on him. And being able to get rid of somebody with a boomtube, isn't what I would call a "cheap tactic", seeing how doing so is NOT a win in Ds's favor, but him avoiding a fight. The spot could trick Spider-man into one of his hole thingies, but that doesn't mean he can beat him outright.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Being close(or exceeding someone) in overall power isn't the same as being as durable. Storm's power far exceeds Wolverine's, but he's still A LOT more durable.
But Orion, Agogg, Martian Manhunter, are VERY close, or even above Superman in durability. Agogg can take attacks from Lightray and Orion, then pwn both of them. Yet when he faces Ds himself, he's erased from existance. Mm should be on par with Supes in terms of duribility(not equal to, just close). Lobo should be, and I would say Secret is aswell, seeing how she can take attacks from Superboy, and others with little effect. He's also destroyed the Cyborg and a set of missles with the Oe, when Superman couldn't do shit to them. Hell, Superman has been teleported by the Oe, yet the wipeout function can't do shit for some reason. So that means Ds is holding back alot of power, or Dc is wanking him to a point were anything is possible. Besides. being able to resist the Oe, through nothing more than durability, is just pure idiotic.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're right he didn't need to. But my point was that he doesn't like to use "cheap" tactics when he's bloodlusted. You forget that you weren't supposed to be hunting examples of his beating people, you were supposed to be hunting examples of his using his more exotic abilities to score a "cheap" win when he's bloodlusted.

So have I, but you still haven't actually countered any of my points on the matter.

Ok then, but I don't see how holding back SO MUCH power, as a cheap win to Ds. He's not that honorable, where he'll risk everything just to have a fair fight against Superman. That's not Ds being respectful, but Dc finding a way for Superman to be their top dog. See some of the ridiculous shit he's done lately, like pull Ds off the Source wall, when it takes an assload of power, to remove Yuga khan from it. Like I said, Dc likes to wank Superman. 🙄

Originally posted by starking
How can they not be in the same duribility class, when Lobo has manhandled him? You have to have duribility, to accompany your strength in such a way, I'm right am I not?

Durability and strength don't always go hand in hand. Often... yes, always...by no stretch of the imagination(just look at Sunspot). You have to remember, Supes durability isn't just based off of his physicality, he's also got his bio field. Lobo doesn't have a bio field that acts as a forcefield to my knowledge. And as I pointed out before, Lobo sustains what Supes would consider serious injurys from less damage than Supes has been shown to withstand many times, it's just that Lobo heals back from it.

Originally posted by starking
And he did that by opening a boomtube, rather than teleporting him with Oe. You do know that Superman deflected the omega effect, in that same story, and that there's no indication to how the avatar was holding back, right? I'm sure Superman was supposed to be outright superior to that avatar, instead of him being stronger than him.

He didn't deflect the OE, it chased him around and he led it back to DS. But seeing as how DS STILL could've opened that boomtube at any time to BFR Supes into a red sun or something like that, but he didn't. So it still supports his going toe to toe with Supes as being "in character".

Originally posted by starking
Yes that's true for Despero, however Secret was giving the combined power of Slobo, Red Tornadoe, Superboy, and Wondergirl hell, and I'm pretty sure that group is able to defeat Superman. Btw, Secret was going to end the world with her power, more evidence that proves she's above Superman.

Tell you what, if you'd like I can start a Young Justice(minus Secret of course) vs Supes thread and we can see what everyone else thinks about that, because I see Supes blitzing the lot of them. And whether or not she was SUPPOSED to destroy the world is irrelevant, because she was dealt with before she ever demonstrated that level of power.

Originally posted by starking
Not really, seeing how Supes turned the Oe on him. And being able to get rid of somebody with a boomtube, isn't what I would call a "cheap tactic", seeing how doing so is NOT a win in Ds's favor, but him avoiding a fight. The spot could trick Spider-man into one of his hole thingies, but that doesn't mean he can beat him outright.

It doesn't have to be "cheap" in your eyes, it only has to be cheap in the eyes of DS to be applicable.

Originally posted by starking
But Orion, Agogg, Martian Manhunter, are VERY close, or even above Superman in durability. Agogg can take attacks from Lightray and Orion, then pwn both of them. Yet when he faces Ds himself, he's erased from existance. Mm should be on par with Supes in terms of duribility(not equal to, just close). Lobo should be, and I would say Secret is aswell, seeing how she can take attacks from Superboy, and others with little effect. He's also destroyed the Cyborg and a set of missles with the Oe, when Superman couldn't do shit to them. Hell, Superman has been teleported by the Oe, yet the wipeout function can't do shit for some reason. So that means Ds is holding back alot of power, or Dc is wanking him to a point were anything is possible. Besides. being able to resist the Oe, through nothing more than durability, is just pure idiotic.

Being teleported by the OE in no way indicates that he couldn't resist the erasing effect. Thor was able to teleport the Destroyer without to much trouble when he tried, but he still wasn't able to beat him despite the fact that his offesive capabilities came from the same source as his teleportation abilities(his hammer).

Originally posted by starking
Ok then, but I don't see how holding back SO MUCH power, as a cheap win to Ds. He's not that honorable, where he'll risk everything just to have a fair fight against Superman. That's not Ds being respectful, but Dc finding a way for Superman to be their top dog. See some of the ridiculous shit he's done lately, like pull Ds off the Source wall, when it takes an assload of power, to remove Yuga khan from it. Like I said, Dc likes to wank Superman. 🙄

Unfortunately for you and the rest of DS's fans, his sense of honor is still something that's been established by DC as being a part of his character. I'm no fan of how Surfer fights most of the time either(seeing as how he could kill many of his opponents with little effort if he tried), but my disliking it doesn't change Norrin's outlook on life(and because of that I don't ignore his mentality when I'm discussing him on a thread). That's why I don't give Surfer 10/10 against Supes, because Surfer's mentality limits him. See I'm a fan of the CHARACTER not the powerset, so I have to acknowledge the limitations that he imposes on himself rather than ignore them(as per forum rules).

Originally posted by darthgoober
You have to remember, Thanos's powers were upgraded TWICE between his fight against Odin and his blasting Galactus.

which is one other reason why thanos sucks so hard . . .

I'm talking about the erasing effect itself. And unless I'm mistaken, those 'gods' you're talking about him wiping out were wiped out in the Great Darkness Saga, which is invalid by forum rules due to it being a future version of DS(I know because I checked with Digi).

nah, the scene i'm talking about happened WELL before the gds. i've posted it in some threads a while back. this was when ds was raping pantheons and stealing their power. gds feats should be fine imo, but either way, i've not mentioned anything from that arc.

But the fact that she draws her power from Hyperspace(the only logical explanation) means that her inflicting more damage is due more to the NATURE of her powers than the extent of her powers. The Human Torch could cause more damage to classic Despero or Martian Manhunter with a single fireblast than Hulk could with a single punch, but it's because those characters are more vulnerable to that type of attack rather than Torch being more powerful.

you're nitpicking, nor do i see galactus being any more or less vulnerable to a speculatory hyperspace blast than he would be to a cosmic blast. do you have proof g is more vulnerable to hyperspatial power? 😬

Actually, Galactus WAS impressed by Thanos's tech. And since much of Thanos's tech is standard equipment to him. As for whether or not Big G was partially erased, we'll just have to agree to disagree because I'm not buying it since it was never even touched upon in the book(which makes it PURE speculation).

nevertheless, tech's not inherent power. and i've no problem agreeing to disagree. the art/colour of galactus speaks pretty clearly to me that SOMETHING happened to him, (unless you think the colouring was an accident or something). just WHAT it meant is open to interpretation, but given the nature of the OE and given what ds was trying to do, it seems logical to assume he was at least partially affected by the blast to me.