Doomsday vs Thanos

Originally posted by darthgoober

You may be right about that one too, since the only person I can remember talking about it coming from the Source is nvr, and he's anything but a reliable source of info(ESPECIALLY where DS is concerned).

Except never is the one who made mention of the giant form new gods. To which you and others said I was off my rocker. I also made note of the erasing effect on galactus and you acted as if I was alone in my assumption. As we see I wasn't. I am also the one who explains how DS was able to pummel DS into submission and DEATH apparantly with the OE where The Guardian could not. Where people say the OE isn't what it used to be is rediculous given this example. if anything, I find that you are the one that isn't to be relied upon when discussing DS, the NEw Gods, or others. This of course is just my opinion. And everyone has one of those. It's not fact and niether is your point about me.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well one of the power ups involved him stealing the orb from Tyrant, so that seems to be right on par with what DS did. And the other, was his giving himself more power using "life preserving wishes" which just seems like good sense on his part. And whether or not the End is cannon or not may be open to debate, but the "life preserving wishes" is undoubtedly cannon(being mentioned in an in continuity book) as is the fact that he was pulling off superior feats to what he had prior.

he was permanently powered up by the orb? where was that revealed? and the life wishes from the hotu is ridiculous BECAUSE he was able to get the heart in the first place. only he wasn't, at least not in continuity according to the editors, which would make his power-up non-existent or subject to another, unrevealed explanation. though i'm not really sure what feat he was abale to accomplish AFTER that supposed power-up that he couldn't have done BEFORE it . . .

As for the editors deciding to power him up more, what can I say? It happens. Spiderman, Superman, Wolverine, Surfer, etc. they've ALL been powered up since their introduction, so there's nothing really out of the ordinary there.

just speaks to my personal hatred of the character who at one time WAS among my favourites in the era that saw him turned to stone. they made him a pathetic joke, and the poster-child of what was/is wrong with marvel. nothing is ever big enough. ridiculous.

Cool I have that whole series so just point me in the direction of the issue number when you get it.

as jun was kind enough to point out -- it was a scene in orion, flashing back to that time in the new gods. take some digging to find the issue. it's in a couple threads already i just can't find the *&^%%$# threads . . .

Well technically, the heralds and such would be a bit different because they're actual corporal beings with a definite form unlike the Celestials and Galactus, but I see your point. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, and her busting through his armor is nothing more than a case of SMvF, I was just trying to come up with an explanation that didn't require that kind of call.

i hate calling pis . . . an easier explanation is that sue's willpower>than galactus's armor. i really don't see his armor being all that special so that works for me. 😬

Originally posted by leonidas

as jun was kind enough to point out -- it was a scene in orion, flashing back to that time in the new gods. take some digging to find the issue. it's in a couple threads already i just can't find the *&^%%$# threads . . .

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Except never is the one who made mention of the giant form new gods. To which you and others said I was off my rocker.

Originally posted by Juntai
http://img335.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fbc33955jpgorig7zh.jpg

This scan is saying alot about his power and showing the true power of all of the new Gods.

Originally posted by Juntai
Many of the DC readers already knew. And I don't think you were the first to make mention of it either.

True. But I was the one who was made fun of for brining it up.

Originally posted by Juntai
http://img335.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fbc33955jpgorig7zh.jpg

clap

Originally posted by starking
Well it doesn't matter how if you are wrong or right about Lobo, because the point I'm trying to make is Superman SHOULDN'T be able to resist the Oe. It doesn't matter how many times Supes has done it, it was in THREE bad stories that had him doing shit, ridiculous from the beggining. Go read Apokolips now, that one story in Action comics, and Superman/Batman, and tell me if he "appeared" to be as powerful, as he was in his other stories. Meaning Ds being "honorable", is nothing more but speculation, seeing how Seid's character tends to be off most of the time.

Originally posted by Tron
Considering that he's done it to Wally more than once, I wouldn't consider it PIS.

Originally posted by Tron
It WOULD be PIS if he reacted to Flash maybe once, but, since he's done it numorous times, that kinda takes it out of the PIS category. You forget that Slade's brain works at advanced levels, which added to his physical abilities allow him to react to Flash, or see the Atom after shrinking.

And if you think that DS's character is off "most of the time" it means that you obviously have a different character in mind than DC does and you're not really talking about DS, just his powerset.

Originally posted by starking
But how does that prove, that the avatar was all around more powerful, than Superman? If you can bfr someone, that means nothing to your overall power. Besides, Ds did that when Supes didn't expect it, he basically FLEW into a trap. So I'm going to stay with my original opinion, that the avatar could be stopped by Superman levelers, but the real thing CANNOT.

Originally posted by starking
Ok then, fine. But wouldn't you think that Superboy, Red tornado, and Wonder girl, would give Superman hell, if not defeat him?

Originally posted by starking
Yes, but the problem is, one of those statements was made by him in a Doomsday story(were the characterization was a little off), and another was made by Bryne's Ds, who appeared to be quit inconsistent. The only way we could say if Ds is as honorable of a fighter as you say he is, is to have other sources similar to the statement he made in the Doomsday story.

Originally posted by starking
But why can the Oe work on Agogg, and Orion, and not do the same for Superman? Well it seemed to work just fine here

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid66/p43f271405bb78d83ae047fd1cf65a746/fbdd46ca.jpg

And here.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid100/p0b61009840e364c381c4570f49b851cb/f9e393e8.jpg

Not only that, but it has worked on the Cyborg and some apokoliptian constructs, when Supes could do jack to them. If you want to see those scans, then I can find them for you?

Originally posted by starking
Ds has a sense of honor and there's NO denying that fact. However, Seid isn't so foolish to let his pride get in his way. Meaning you only assume Ds holds back his "exotic abilities", by looking at ONE story from the Doomsday annual, and ONE statement where he didn't even IMPLY, he was holding back. So no, whenever Ds lost to Supes in Apokolips now, Action comics(Bryne's and the other one), and Superman and Batman, it wasn't because he was going easy on Superman, but because he wasn't that powerful to begin with, in those stories. Which is fine with me, seeing how Darkseid has bunch of different feats that makes up for those portrayals. Btw, if bloodlust is a forum rule, how can you debate against it? Don't you think debating on a character's FULL potential, is little more interesting than debating on how he/she uses their abilities?

And to answer your question, I DON'T find debating powersets to be as interesting as debating the characters themselves. If I did, I would find another forum were the debates were based solely off of powersets(and I know for a fact that there's at least one) rather than spend my time here on KMC where the rule is that they fight in character.

Anyway the two of us seem to have gotten off track somewhere along the way. See the thing that got this started was...

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't mean necessary PURE h2h fights, I mean primarily h2h. And I have [B]TWO statements that lend credit to DS being an "honorable" fighter. How many statements do you have that suggest that he's a "win at any cost" type? Using things like BFR to progress a plan is one thing, but how many times has he used that kind of thing when all the planning and scheming are over, he's bloodlusted(meaning that he WANTS to finish the guy off), and his opponent is directly in front of him? [/B]

At which point you posted a bunch of scans, NONE of which actually supported your opinion that it's more "in character" for DS to use his more exotic abilities when bloodlusted than it is for him to take them on man to man. Whether or not Supes SHOULD be able to resist the OE is a completely different debate than whether or not DS is likely to use more than his basic abilities in a strait up fight WITH Supes.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But according to forum rules, it DOES matter how many times he's done it...

And if you think that DS's character is off "most of the time" it means that you obviously have a different character in mind than DC does and you're not really talking about DS, just his powerset.

Again you're acting like I'm using that single instance is a indication of DS's power and I'm not(I'm using it as indication of his personality).

I seriously doubt it(but it's possible that I'm underestimating Red Tornado due to a lack of info on him).

It doesn't change the fact that what I'm saying is supported TWICE on panel, while you've yet to produce any actual on panel evidence to the contrary. If it's more "in character" for DS to settle for a "cheap" win than to exhibit a sense of honor when he's bloodlusted, then you should have NO trouble finding the evidence to support your opinion.

So you have ONE instance of his being really hurt by it, and one instance of him being trapped in the ground by it...yeah there's still more evidence on my side.

Why does he have to indicate it EVERY time he faces off against him if it's already been established to be part of his character? Does Thor say specifically mention that he could easily get an easy win over Hulk via BFR every time they fight but he prefers to go at it man to man for us to KNOW that's what he's doing? No, because now that the reasoning behind his holding back so often has been established, we can safely assume that anytime Thor and Hulk square off and Thor doesn't go all out with his hammer that Thor's sense of honor and desire to best Hulk physically is the reasoning behind it.

And to answer your question, I DON'T find debating powersets to be as interesting as debating the characters themselves. If I did, I would find another forum were the debates were based solely off of powersets(and I know for a fact that there's at least one) rather than spend my time here on KMC where the rule is that they fight in character.

Anyway the two of us seem to have gotten off track somewhere along the way. See the thing that got this started was...

At which point you posted a bunch of scans, NONE of which actually supported your opinion that it's more "in character" for DS to use his more exotic abilities when bloodlusted than it is for him to take them on man to man. Whether or not Supes SHOULD be able to resist the OE is a completely different debate than whether or not DS is likely to use more than his basic abilities in a strait up fight WITH Supes.

Red Tornado is the Univeral avatar of the wind. He's an elemental and is the only being i've ever seen split grundy. Grundy was about to fight the entire league for amazo's body. Safe to say grundy is no joke. Secret was more powerful than Superman. This can't be denied. She was going to destroy the world.

Are you arguing that it's far more in character for Darkseid to battle hand to hand than just eye-beam his opponents, darthgoober?

Originally posted by leonidas
he was permanently powered up by the orb? where was that revealed?

Originally posted by leonidas
and the life wishes from the hotu is ridiculous BECAUSE he was able to get the heart in the first place. only he wasn't, at least not in continuity according to the editors, which would make his power-up non-existent or subject to another, unrevealed explanation. though i'm not really sure what feat he was abale to accomplish AFTER that supposed power-up that he couldn't have done BEFORE it . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
just speaks to my personal hatred of the character who at one time WAS among my favourites in the era that saw him turned to stone. they made him a pathetic joke, and the poster-child of what was/is wrong with marvel. nothing is ever big enough. ridiculous.

Originally posted by leonidas
as jun was kind enough to point out -- it was a scene in orion, flashing back to that time in the new gods. take some digging to find the issue. it's in a couple threads already i just can't find the *&^%%$# threads . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
i hate calling pis . . . an easier explanation is that sue's willpower>than galactus's armor. i really don't see his armor being all that special so that works for me. 😬

Originally posted by Juntai
Are you arguing that it's far more in character for Darkseid to battle hand to hand than just eye-beam his opponents, darthgoober?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Red Tornado is the Univeral avatar of the wind. He's an elemental and is the only being i've ever seen split grundy. Grundy was about to fight the entire league for amazo's body. Safe to say grundy is no joke. Secret was more powerful than Superman. This can't be denied. She was going to destroy the world.

And again, what Secret would have done eventually is inconsequential since she never actually demonstrated that level of power to my knowledge. Orion will one day kill DS, do you really think Orion is that powerful NOW?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Depends on the opponent. I'm pretty much arguing that it's not necessarily PIS that DS doesn't use things like mind raping and BFR into a red sun to score an easy win. DS obviously doesn't have a problem with eye beams against the likes of Supes(it's only fair after all since Supes uses them), but DS tends to try to beat his opponents on their own terms rather than resort to an easy win.

Though I won't say it is PIS. . . .judging from his history he is definitely far more likely just to eyebeam someone into submission with one of the omega's powers or another. In fact, it's not too often he's forced to get his hands dirty at all.

Originally posted by Juntai
But he does have examples of doing the others. Just because there's a few examples of him going blow for blow with Superman, doesn't take away his wins such as turning Secret into a mortal, erasing or teleporting with the omega beams, mind control, turning Validus into a child. . etc etc.

Though I won't say it is PIS. . . .judging from his history he is definitely far more likely just to eyebeam someone into submission with one of the omega's powers or another. In fact, it's not too often he's forced to get his hands dirty at all.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Grundy's power fluctuates more than the Hulk. Just how powerful was he being portrayed as being when RT soloed him?

And again, what Secret would have done eventually is inconsequential since she never actually demonstrated that level of power to my knowledge. Orion will one day kill DS, do you really think Orion is that powerful NOW?

With his astro force. Yes I do. But it isn't about power, it's about him being the one that is supposed to kill DS. He already accomplished this in Rock of ages with a genesis box.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm not trying to take away those wins, but from what I've seen when DS get's pissed and lacks a scheme to further, he likes to take his opponents on head on(the same way that Thor does). That(combined with the two scans of DS vocally expressing his sense of honor) means that his going toe to toe with Supes doesn't fall under the heading of PIS, it falls under the heading of CIS(which is admissible by forum rules) because it's an established part of his personality.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm not trying to take away those wins, but from what I've seen when DS get's pissed and lacks a scheme to further, he likes to take his opponents on head on(the same way that Thor does). That(combined with the two scans of DS vocally expressing his sense of honor) means that his going toe to toe with Supes doesn't fall under the heading of PIS, it falls under the heading of CIS(which is admissible by forum rules) because it's an established part of his personality.

You can't bring CIS into play unless it's a fight with Superman going by your example. When it comes to others, DS doesn't go hand to hand that I"m aware of.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
With his astro force. Yes I do. But it isn't about power, it's about him being the one that is supposed to kill DS. He already accomplished this in Rock of ages with a genesis box.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You can't bring CIS into play unless it's a fight with Superman going by your example. When it comes to others, DS doesn't go hand to hand that I"m aware of.