Existance of Hell Poses Logical Problems
I have Two Questions I Hope Any Christian, Muslim, or person who beleives in the Literal Concepts of Heaven and Hell can answer:
The First is a simplication of the question posed on my other thread, which NO RELIGIOUS PERSON answered, so I asked to close that one.
The second is another question which I think coincides with and supports the first.
1) If you make it to Heaven, but someone you love ends up in Hell, how can you possibly have eternal happiness in Heaven knowing your loved one is burning in Hell ? How can ANYONE in Heaven be happy knowing that other people are being tortured for all eternity ?
That is selfish....that cannot be possible that someone can be all loving, and have eternal bliss, when they know full well that others are suffering greatly for eternity
Explain that to me..how will Heaven be bliss if Hell exists?
2)The concept of Hell itself poses a Great Logical Problem.
This goes to all Parents, or anyone who can relate. If your child disobeys you, would you send them to a place where they will be tortured ? Like a concentration camp?
If your child did not beleive in you, or thought your words to be false, even when you were right, would you torture them?
If you love them, then obviously the answer is no. You would not torture your own children, even if they killed someone.
So God, who is supposed to love us more than our own parents do, who is supposed to be Love Embodied...
Would send us to Hell why ?
How could a God, a being, who loves us like a parent, or even more so, possibly condemn or judge or consign us to a place where we will be tormented for all eternity and/or destroyed ?
That makes absolutely no sense, and I dare you to try and explain that for me.
1.I have asked this to many Christians and I have got 3 answers
,1.You will be so happy you will forget(Seems impossible),
2.Memory erased(1984),
3."No man knows that's a biblical verse from someplace in that big book
2.I have found only 1 answer about that,, "there is an age of account ability(Mental age that is)"
I find the whole concept of Hell sick myself,If the Christian god exists,he is one twisted son of a *****
Hell, in keeping with Biblical definitions, is "eternal" separation from God; hell is not a torture chamber. Hell is not a "punishing," but a "punishment!" The Holy Bible describes hell as a place of mourning, where only those who have actively resisted God--and wanted nothing to with God--reside. Those that reside in hell "mourn" because they realize the verdict: they lost everything. Such mourning has absolutely nothing to do with "literal flames of fire," burning, and tormenting those present in hell. In the Bible, "fire" often refers to "judgement." Hell is described as a "dark" place too, remember? Read scripture carefully, please.
We simply must understand, that God wants no one to inherit eternal hell. Hence, Jesus the Christ. God is holy and just. If God, not caring much about sin and/or evil in the world, refused to punish such nonsense--in my view--would be a monster. God would be a sicko. But, that is not the case, God--by nature--is holy. God will punish sin. DO NOT BE MISTAKEN BY THE DELAY. Sin will not go unpunished. It hurts God, people, the sinners "themselves" directly.
God loves us; we have "intrinsic value. God gave mankind the freedom of choice--free will. There is no better freedom, and respects our choices, even if they are the wrong choices. God is tough love, though! Some people care more about Britney Spears than they do their Creator. Life is a gift from God, not a RIGHT!
In the end, people only get what they asked and/or lived for. Some people--not all--get angry when obsoletes are discussed. Well, I do at times myself. But, I always remind myself, that, truth is not determined by my emotions! Hmm... that is my quick voice on the matter. Did I help anymore?
Originally posted by ushomefree
Hell, in keeping with Biblical definitions, is "eternal" separation from God; hell is not a torture chamber. Hell is not a "punishing," but a "punishment!" The Holy Bible describes hell as a place of mourning, where only those who have actively resisted God--and wanted nothing to with God--reside. Those that reside in hell "mourn" because they realize the verdict: they lost everything. Such mourning has absolutely nothing to do with "literal flames of fire," burning, and tormenting those present in hell. In the Bible, "fire" often refers to "judgement." Hell is described as a "dark" place too, remember? Read scripture carefully, please.
So really Hell has nothing to do with justice or even punishing wrong doers. As I suspected the only sin that counts in the end is not kowtowing to God. Murder, theft, all the rest irrelevant- Hell is for those people who simply didn't go for God. And alot of people who didn't go for God probably haven't committed any real crime.
Because lets face it - what is actively resisting God? Or wanting nothing to do with him? Nothing that would land a person in jail or executed. Do you believe a person, on earth, should be jailed for failing to believe in God or believing in another faith? Should they be fined? Stripped of rights? Anything at all? If not then do you believe one who doesn't believe in God, or believed in a different faith deserves Hell?
We simply must understand, that God wants no one to inherit eternal hell. Hence, Jesus the Christ. God is holy and just. If God, not caring much about sin and/or evil in the world, refused to punish such nonsense--in my view--would be a monster. God would be a sicko. But, that is not the case, God--by nature--is holy. God will punish sin. DO NOT BE MISTAKEN BY THE DELAY. Sin will not go unpunished. It hurts God, people, the sinners "themselves" directly.
Sicko God doesn't actually do anything to people while they are engaged in sinning though, does he? It is only after they are dead and no longer relevant to what is going on earth.
They say when house-training a dog that punishment to long after the act is useless. To be fair I struggle to see the use Hell as punishment for those "involved in resisting God" really has contributed to making the world a better place.
Because lets face it, I suspect a smack on the nose of a sinner with a rolled up newspaper from God would have more relevance because at least then we would KNOW that God was actively taking notice of what we were doing to each other. Instead of the vague:
Person: "Oh, God cares and he'll, like, be just. When the time comes. Which is when you die. Because, like while it might have seemed more useful to do it while a person is alive as when you're dead you can't have an impact on earth anymore and no one can see it or know it is happening beyond faith it is still just. The Bible says so."
God loves us; we have "intrinsic value. God gave mankind the freedom of choice--free will. There is no better freedom, and respects our choices, even if they are the wrong choices. God is tough love, though! Some people care more about Britney Spears than they do their Creator. Life is a gift from God, not a RIGHT!
God yes - we humans are so wrong! What were we thinking when we proclaimed life as a fundamental, inalienable right for all people. It's a gift from God and we should be shamed into complete obediance for a being who even its followers indicate doesn't really do anything for you till you're dead.
In the end, people only get what they asked and/or lived for. Some people--not all--get angry when obsoletes are discussed. Well, I do at times myself. But, I always remind myself, that, truth is not determined by my emotions! Hmm... that is my quick voice on the matter. Did I help anymore?
No, not really. You gloss over other people having faith equal to or stronger then you own in other faiths, those who do not believe have what they deem valid reasons for doing so...
I hope, in commenting on your statements, I help answer questions that you may have. I could have been more informative, but I really don't have the time. Its tiresome to address everyone. If you have a specific question, please present it. Otherwise, we will catch up on the next thread.
POSTED BY IMPERIAL_SAMURASo really Hell has nothing to do with justice or even punishing wrong doers. As I suspected the only sin that counts in the end is not kowtowing to God. Murder, theft, all the rest irrelevant- Hell is for those people who simply didn't go for God. And a lot of people who didn't go for God probably haven't committed any real crime.
Because lets face it - what is actively resisting God? Or wanting nothing to do with him? Nothing that would land a person in jail or executed. Do you believe a person, on earth, should be jailed for failing to believe in God or believing in another faith? Should they be fined? Stripped of rights? Anything at all? If not then do you believe one who doesn't believe in God, or believed in a different faith deserves Hell?
Hell has everything to do with justice; without it, sin will go unpunished. And sin is not exclusive to “resisting” Almighty God. People who actively resist God, refuse to take accountability for their actions. They refuse to humble themselves as sinners in need of salvation. They are, in fact, saying, “I do not need God,” and “I do not want God.” And, in the end, that is precisely what they get: eternal separation from God. Without redemption, faith is impossible, and without faith, salvation is impossible.
POSTED BY IMPERIAL_SAMURASicko God doesn't actually do anything to people while they are engaged in sinning though, does he? It is only after they are dead and no longer relevant to what is going on earth.
They say when house-training a dog that punishment to long after the act is useless. To be fair I struggle to see the use Hell as punishment for those "involved in resisting God" really has contributed to making the world a better place.
Because lets face it, I suspect a smack on the nose of a sinner with a rolled up newspaper from God would have more relevance because at least then we would KNOW that God was actively taking notice of what we were doing to each other. Instead of the vague:
Person: "Oh, God cares and he'll, like, be just. When the time comes. Which is when you die. Because, like while it might have seemed more useful to do it while a person is alive as when you're dead you can't have an impact on earth anymore and no one can see it or know it is happening beyond faith it is still just. The Bible says so."
Almighty God does not disturb free will. You simply must understand this. Again, whether subjecting oneself to sinful acts or not, is irrelevant. God does not disturb free will. That is the beauty of life; we have the complete freedom to make our own choices and are not “coerced” by—as you eloquently put it—God hitting those who sin with a rolled up news paper.
POSTED BY IMPERIAL_SAMURAGod yes - we humans are so wrong! What were we thinking when we proclaimed life as a fundamental, inalienable right for all people. It's a gift from God and we should be shamed into complete obedience for a being who even its followers indicate doesn't really do anything for you till you're dead.
Without God, why would life be an "inalienable" right? Who cares what you think. And your latter statement is completely out of sink with Christian theology, not to mention world religions.
POSTED BY IMPERIAL_SAMURANo, not really. You gloss over other people having faith equal to or stronger then you own in other faiths, those who do not believe have what they deem valid reasons for doing so...
People all over the world have belief systems; but being that we live in a world governed by "objectivity," not all religions can be correct. Either all are false, or only one is true. The majority of world religions are based on heritage, culture, or emotion—a feeling.
Christianity claims to be based on historical grounds, namely the resurrection. Without such an event, it is extremely difficult to explain the “origins” of the faith. The Apostle Paul came forth and made the sobering statement: “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.” (1 Corinthians 15:14) Any scholar will agree, that the early Christians sincerely believed that Jesus rose from the dead. Eyewitness testimony verifies this. Read 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. Its the “earliest” Christian creed, written while eyewitnesses were still alive, not centuries later as some skeptics argue.
Originally posted by ushomefree
[B]I hope, in commenting on your statements, I help answer questions that you may have. I could have been more informative, but I really don't have the time. Its tiresome to address everyone. If you have a specific question, please present it. Otherwise, we will catch up on the next thread.Hell has everything to do with justice; without it, sin will go unpunished. And sin is not exclusive to “resisting” Almighty God. People who actively resist God, refuse to take accountability for their actions. They refuse to humble themselves as sinners in need of salvation. They are, in fact, saying, “I do not need God,” and “I do not want God.” And, in the end, that is precisely what they get: eternal separation from God. Without redemption, faith is impossible, and without faith, salvation is impossible.
Almighty God does not disturb free will. You simply must understand this. Again, whether subjecting oneself to sinful acts or not, is irrelevant. God does not disturb free will. That is the beauty of life; we have the complete freedom to make our own choices and are not “coerced” by—as you eloquently put it—God hitting those who sin with a rolled up news paper.
Without God, why would life be an "inalienable" right? Who cares what you think. And your latter statement is completely out of sink with Christian theology, not to mention world religions.
People all over the world have belief systems; but being that we live in a world governed by "objectivity," not all religions can be correct. Either all are false, or only one is true. The majority of world religions are based on heritage, culture, or emotion—a feeling.
Christianity claims to be based on historical grounds, namely the resurrection. Without such an event, it is extremely difficult to explain the “origins” of the faith. The Apostle Paul came forth and made the sobering statement: “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.” (1 Corinthians 15:14) Any scholar will agree, that the early Christians sincerely believed that Jesus rose from the dead. Eyewitness testimony verifies this. Read 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. Its the “earliest” Christian creed, written while eyewitnesses were still alive, not centuries later as some skeptics argue. [/B]
god is omnipotent. he does not need, nor has any use for your faith. he can not be selfish, hence, he can not ask anything of you or put any conditions on goals{heaven/hell} for you.
god is omnibenevolant, he can NEVER let a soul suffer. be it in the world or in the afterlife. this world is characterised by suffering, hence the christian god is not its creator. hell is eternal unimaginable suffering. this is in contradiction with the fact that the christian god is omnibenebolant.
god is omniscient. this means that reguardless of OUR FEALING about free will. there is already only one pre determined future which will come tp pass. this nulls free will, as man is a silent spectator who only THINKS he does things of free will. in reality there is only one choice, "what god knows will come to pass". and he knew it, creating the world and man. there is no such thing as free will as long as god is omniscient.
people often desire to not believe in fallacious faiths like christianity looking at the contradictions and fallacies. this is based on evidence and is a right conclusions. if god dislikes it and CHOOSES to send them to hell then he alone is creating the criteria for hell and then sending people to hell based on it. people have no choice and no free will. he is the creator of hell and responsible for sending people in it.
as for the argument of men CHOOSING hell. NO1, chooses eternal suffering in after life. you seem to propose that not believing in god is the same as choosing hell. NOT TRUE. GOD is the one that made that connection. people might choose to be away from god, but NONE choose to go to hell. hell{a place of torment eternal} is very different from not believing in the christian trinity and crucification of christ. one is lack of belief, the other is desire to enter eternal torment. the difference in words alone is enough to elaborate that. god is again responsible for sending them to hell. they chose NOTHING of the sort u propose.