Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So really Hell has nothing to do with justice or even punishing wrong doers. As I suspected the only sin that counts in the end is not kowtowing to God. Murder, theft, all the rest irrelevant- Hell is for those people who simply didn't go for God. And alot of people who didn't go for God probably haven't committed any real crime.Because lets face it - what is actively resisting God? Or wanting nothing to do with him? Nothing that would land a person in jail or executed. Do you believe a person, on earth, should be jailed for failing to believe in God or believing in another faith? Should they be fined? Stripped of rights? Anything at all? If not then do you believe one who doesn't believe in God, or believed in a different faith deserves Hell?
Declaration: There are men and women in Hell who have dedicated their lives to serving God and doing good works.
Sicko God doesn't actually do anything to people while they are engaged in sinning though, does he? It is only after they are dead and no longer relevant to what is going on earth.
They say when house-training a dog that punishment to long after the act is useless. To be fair I struggle to see the use Hell as punishment for those "involved in resisting God" really has contributed to making the world a better place.
Because lets face it, I suspect a smack on the nose of a sinner with a rolled up newspaper from God would have more relevance because at least then we would KNOW that God was actively taking notice of what we were doing to each other. Instead of the vague:Person: "Oh, God cares and he'll, like, be just. When the time comes. Which is when you die. Because, like while it might have seemed more useful to do it while a person is alive as when you're dead you can't have an impact on earth anymore and no one can see it or know it is happening beyond faith it is still just. The Bible says so."
Statement: As is demonstrated in Imperial_Samurai's posts about God's acts in the Old Testament, Imperial_Samurai believes that such punishments in the here and now are unjust and unfair.
Conjecture: Imperial_Samurai will always have an issue with the way God does things.
God yes - we humans are so wrong! What were we thinking when we proclaimed life as a fundamental, inalienable right for all people. It's a gift from God and we should be shamed into complete obediance for a being who even its followers indicate doesn't really do anything for you till you're dead.
Declaration: Imperial_Samurai creates a straw man argument by describing obedience to God as being something into which one is "shamed."
Originally posted by FeceMan
Interjection: [Laughter, mirthless.]Statement: Oh, they cannot see; how blind they are.
a persona who has never expiriences sight is not entitled to debate on the differences between it and its lack. nor pass such comments concerning a phenomenon completely alien to him.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
so is heaven 🙂 . but it doesnt hurt to have other minds be close to you in their mind as you are to them in your mind.
😕
Yes, Heaven is a state of mind. All ten worlds are states of mind.
*******
One way that Buddhism explains life is through a concept known as "the ten worlds." These are ten states or conditions of life that we experience within ourselves and are then manifested throughout all aspects of our lives. Each of us possesses the potential for all ten, and we shift from one to another at any moment, according to our interaction with the environment. That is, at each moment, one of the ten worlds is being manifested and the other nine are dormant. From lowest to highest, they are:
Hell -- This is a state of suffering and despair, in which we perceive we have no freedom of action. It is characterized by the impulse to destroy ourselves and everything around us.
Hunger -- Hunger is the state of being controlled by insatiable desire for money, power, status, or whatever. While desires are inherent in any of the ten worlds, in this state we are at the mercy of our cravings and cannot control them.
Animality -- In this state, we are ruled by instinct. We exhibit neither reason nor moral sense nor the ability to make long-range judgments. In the world of Animality, we operate by the law of the jungle, so to speak. We will not hesitate to take advantage of those weaker than ourselves and fawn on those who are stronger.
Anger -- In this next state, awareness of ego emerges, but it is a selfish, greedy, distorted ego, determined to best others at all costs and seeing everything as a potential threat to itself. In this state we value only ourselves and tend to hold others in contempt. We are strongly attached to the idea of our own superiority and cannot bear to admit that anyone exceeds us in anything.
Humanity (also called Tranquillity) -- This is a flat, passive state of life, from which we can easily shift into the lower four worlds. While we may generally behave in a humane fashion in this state, we are highly vulnerable to strong external influences.
Heaven (or Rapture) -- This is a state of intense joy stemming, for example, from the fulfillment of some desire, a sense of physical well-being, or inner contentment. Though intense, the joy experienced in this state is short-lived and also vulnerable to external influences.
The six states from Hell to Heaven are called the six paths or six lower worlds. They have in common the fact that their emergence or disappearance is governed by external circumstances. Take the example of a man obsessed by the desire to find someone to love him (Hunger). When he at last does meet that person, he feels ecstatic and fulfilled (Heaven). By and by, potential rivals appear on the scene, and he is seized by jealousy (Anger). Eventually, his possessiveness drives his loved one away. Crushed by despair (Hell), he feels life is no longer worth living. In this way, many of us spend time shuttling back and forth among the six paths without ever realizing we are being controlled by our reactions to the environment. Any happiness or satisfaction to be gained in these states depends totally upon circumstances and is therefore transient and subject to change.
In these six lower worlds, we base our entire happiness, indeed our whole identity, on externals.
The next two states, Learning and Realization, come about when we recognize that everything experienced in the six paths is impermanent, and we begin to seek some lasting truth. These two states plus the next two, Bodhisattva and Buddhahood, are together called the four noble worlds. Unlike the six paths, which are passive reactions to the environment, these four higher states are achieved through deliberate effort.
Learning -- In this state, we seek the truth through the teachings or experience of others.
Realization -- This state is similar to Learning, except that we seek the truth not through others’ teachings but through our own direct perception of the world.
Learning and Realization are together called the "two vehicles." Having realized the impermanence of things, people in these states have won a measure of independence and are no longer prisoner to their own reactions as in the six paths. However, they often tend to be contemptuous of people in the six paths who have not yet reached this understanding. In addition, their search for truth is primarily self-oriented, so there is a great potential for egotism in these two states; and they may become satisfied with their progress without discovering the highest potential of human life in the ninth and tenth worlds.
Bodhisattva -- Bodhisattvas are those who aspire to achieve enlightenment and at the same time are equally determined to enable all other beings to do the same. Conscious of the bonds that link us to all others, in this state we realize that any happiness we alone enjoy is incomplete, and we devote ourselves to alleviating others’ suffering. Those in this state find their greatest satisfaction in altruistic behavior.
The states from Hell to Bodhisattva are collectively termed "the nine worlds." This expression is often used in contrast to the tenth world, the enlightened state of Buddhahood.
Buddhahood -- Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, we can resolve harmoniously what appear from the standpoint of the nine worlds to be insoluble contradictions. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha’s life as a true self, perfect freedom from karmic bonds throughout eternity, a life purified of illusion, and absolute happiness. Also, the state of Buddhahood is physically expressed in the Bodhisattva Way or actions of a Bodhisattva.
POSTED BY LEONHEARTMMgod is omnipotent. he does not need, nor has any use for your faith. he can not be selfish, hence, he can not ask anything of you or put any conditions on goals{heaven/hell} for you.
If the entire world followed the 10 commandments without waiver, the world would be absolutely perfect. Jesus Christ summed up all commandments by stating, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Such "conditions" were not commanded out of selfishness, but love. Almost like raising children not to use drugs or steal. And if they didn't listen and/or obey, their would be--gasp--"consequences."
POSTED BY LEONHEARTMMgod is omnibenevolant, he can NEVER let a soul suffer. be it in the world or in the afterlife. this world is characterised by suffering, hence the christian god is not its creator. hell is eternal unimaginable suffering. this is in contradiction with the fact that the christian god is omnibenebolant.
Your usage of the word "omnibenevolant" is completely out of context. If a perfect God, creates perfect laws, and people break them, that has didly-squat to do with God's nature, but everything to do with rebellion.
POSTED BY LEONHEARTMMgod is omniscient. this means that reguardless of OUR FEALING about free will. there is already only one pre determined future which will come tp pass. this nulls free will, as man is a silent spectator who only THINKS he does things of free will. in reality there is only one choice, "what god knows will come to pass". and he knew it, creating the world and man. there is no such thing as free will as long as god is omniscient.
Simply because God knows how events in history will unfold does not warrant the audacity to claim that God removes free will. Hence Jesus Christ.
POSTED BY LEONHEARTMMpeople often desire to not believe in fallacious faiths like christianity looking at the contradictions and fallacies. this is based on evidence and is a right conclusions. if god dislikes it and CHOOSES to send them to hell then he alone is creating the criteria for hell and then sending people to hell based on it. people have no choice and no free will. he is the creator of hell and responsible for sending people in it.
Simply because the United States has prisons, does not mean our forefathers created murderers. They were created for people who broke the law. Likewise, Hell was created for person who sinned against God, not to mention others.
POSTED BY LEONHEARTMMas for the argument of men CHOOSING hell. NO1, chooses eternal suffering in after life. you seem to propose that not believing in god is the same as choosing hell. NOT TRUE. GOD is the one that made that connection. people might choose to be away from god, but NONE choose to go to hell. hell{a place of torment eternal} is very different from not believing in the christian trinity and crucification of christ. one is lack of belief, the other is desire to enter eternal torment. the difference in words alone is enough to elaborate that. god is again responsible for sending them to hell. they chose NOTHING of the sort u propose.
I understand that no one chooses eternal damnation, and I also know that people do not choose life in prison or ruin ones life to drug addiction. Those, however, are consequences of people's actions. Denying Jesus as Messiah is no different; it too, carries consequences.
Originally posted by ushomefree
If the entire world followed the 10 commandments without waiver, the world would be absolutely perfect. Jesus Christ summed up all commandments by stating, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Such "conditions" were not commanded out of selfishness, but love. Almost like raising children not to use drugs or steal. And if they didn't listen and/or obey, their would be--gasp--"consequences."
If the entire world followed the 10 commandments, the world would still be in the dark ages.
Originally posted by ushomefree
Your usage of the word "omnibenevolant" is completely out of context. If a perfect God, creates perfect laws, and people break them, that has didly-squat to do with God's nature, but everything to do with rebellion.
God is transcending not omnipotent.
Originally posted by ushomefree
Simply because God knows how events in history will unfold does not warrant the audacity to claim that God removes free will. Hence Jesus Christ.
Jesus was just a man.
Originally posted by ushomefree
Simply because the United States has prisons, does not mean our forefathers created murderers. They were created for people who broke the law. Likewise, Hell was created for person who sinned against God, not to mention others.
The US is not omnipotent, therefore the omnipotent paradox does not apply.
Originally posted by ushomefree
I understand that no one chooses eternal damnation, and I also know that people do not choose life in prison or ruin ones life to drug addiction. Those, however, are consequences of people's actions. Denying Jesus as Messiah is no different; it too, carries consequences.
There is nothing to be saved from.
Originally posted by ushomefree
And you are being difficult.
Why? He is expressing a view with a similar level of conviction as your own. Unless you have some sort of counter argument "you are being difficult" kind of comes of as petulant.
Like something a stereotypical villain yells at the hero as the hero messes up his plans.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
😕Yes, Heaven is a state of mind. All ten worlds are states of mind.
*******
One way that Buddhism explains life is through a concept known as "the ten worlds." These are ten states or conditions of life that we experience within ourselves and are then manifested throughout all aspects of our lives. Each of us possesses the potential for all ten, and we shift from one to another at any moment, according to our interaction with the environment. That is, at each moment, one of the ten worlds is being manifested and the other nine are dormant. From lowest to highest, they are:Hell -- This is a state of suffering and despair, in which we perceive we have no freedom of action. It is characterized by the impulse to destroy ourselves and everything around us.
Hunger -- Hunger is the state of being controlled by insatiable desire for money, power, status, or whatever. While desires are inherent in any of the ten worlds, in this state we are at the mercy of our cravings and cannot control them.
Animality -- In this state, we are ruled by instinct. We exhibit neither reason nor moral sense nor the ability to make long-range judgments. In the world of Animality, we operate by the law of the jungle, so to speak. We will not hesitate to take advantage of those weaker than ourselves and fawn on those who are stronger.
Anger -- In this next state, awareness of ego emerges, but it is a selfish, greedy, distorted ego, determined to best others at all costs and seeing everything as a potential threat to itself. In this state we value only ourselves and tend to hold others in contempt. We are strongly attached to the idea of our own superiority and cannot bear to admit that anyone exceeds us in anything.
Humanity (also called Tranquillity) -- This is a flat, passive state of life, from which we can easily shift into the lower four worlds. While we may generally behave in a humane fashion in this state, we are highly vulnerable to strong external influences.
Heaven (or Rapture) -- This is a state of intense joy stemming, for example, from the fulfillment of some desire, a sense of physical well-being, or inner contentment. Though intense, the joy experienced in this state is short-lived and also vulnerable to external influences.
The six states from Hell to Heaven are called the six paths or six lower worlds. They have in common the fact that their emergence or disappearance is governed by external circumstances. Take the example of a man obsessed by the desire to find someone to love him (Hunger). When he at last does meet that person, he feels ecstatic and fulfilled (Heaven). By and by, potential rivals appear on the scene, and he is seized by jealousy (Anger). Eventually, his possessiveness drives his loved one away. Crushed by despair (Hell), he feels life is no longer worth living. In this way, many of us spend time shuttling back and forth among the six paths without ever realizing we are being controlled by our reactions to the environment. Any happiness or satisfaction to be gained in these states depends totally upon circumstances and is therefore transient and subject to change.
In these six lower worlds, we base our entire happiness, indeed our whole identity, on externals.
The next two states, Learning and Realization, come about when we recognize that everything experienced in the six paths is impermanent, and we begin to seek some lasting truth. These two states plus the next two, Bodhisattva and Buddhahood, are together called the four noble worlds. Unlike the six paths, which are passive reactions to the environment, these four higher states are achieved through deliberate effort.
Learning -- In this state, we seek the truth through the teachings or experience of others.
Realization -- This state is similar to Learning, except that we seek the truth not through others’ teachings but through our own direct perception of the world.
Learning and Realization are together called the "two vehicles." Having realized the impermanence of things, people in these states have won a measure of independence and are no longer prisoner to their own reactions as in the six paths. However, they often tend to be contemptuous of people in the six paths who have not yet reached this understanding. In addition, their search for truth is primarily self-oriented, so there is a great potential for egotism in these two states; and they may become satisfied with their progress without discovering the highest potential of human life in the ninth and tenth worlds.
Bodhisattva -- Bodhisattvas are those who aspire to achieve enlightenment and at the same time are equally determined to enable all other beings to do the same. Conscious of the bonds that link us to all others, in this state we realize that any happiness we alone enjoy is incomplete, and we devote ourselves to alleviating others’ suffering. Those in this state find their greatest satisfaction in altruistic behavior.
The states from Hell to Bodhisattva are collectively termed "the nine worlds." This expression is often used in contrast to the tenth world, the enlightened state of Buddhahood.
Buddhahood -- Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, we can resolve harmoniously what appear from the standpoint of the nine worlds to be insoluble contradictions. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha’s life as a true self, perfect freedom from karmic bonds throughout eternity, a life purified of illusion, and absolute happiness. Also, the state of Buddhahood is physically expressed in the Bodhisattva Way or actions of a Bodhisattva.
***Did you know that Santa Claus comes in the summertime?
Marchello
If the entire world followed the 10 commandments without waiver, the world would be absolutely perfect. Jesus Christ summed up all commandments by stating, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Such "conditions" were not commanded out of selfishness, but love. Almost like raising children not to use drugs or steal. And if they didn't listen and/or obey, their would be--gasp--"consequences
untrue. if it did, the world would be a repressed society of ehtnocentric extremists whod kill others and die out due to suicide. u obviously donot know much about the histoy of the argument to make such ridiculous claims
Your usage of the word "omnibenevolant" is completely out of context. If a perfect God, creates perfect laws, and people break them, that has didly-squat to do with God's nature, but everything to do with rebellion.
untrue. omnibenevolant is not in some CONTEXT. it is a characteristic that god claims. he doesnt come through though and his laws and his character has positively been proved FAR from perfect
Simply because God knows how events in history will unfold does not warrant the audacity to claim that God removes free will. Hence Jesus Christ.
bull. knowledge of a FUTUTRE means ultimate predestination. attribute it to god{nulling free will} or attribute it to sumthing outside god[nulling his omnipotence]. either way he can only see a single future if it WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. reguardless, free will doesnt EXIST if he is omniscient. again, read up on the argument before u become jia esque.
Simply because the United States has prisons, does not mean our forefathers created murderers. They were created for people who broke the law. Likewise, Hell was created for person who sinned against God, not to mention others.
hence my point is proved. he creates the criteria for entering hell{unjust because of his omniscience and imperfection that HE gave his creation} and he created hel. hence any way u cut it, HE is responsible for sending people to hell the comparison is void as the american society is not omnipotent and did not design concepts/humans/conciousness etc from scratch as the apparent creator did.
I understand that no one chooses eternal damnation, and I also know that people do not choose life in prison or ruin ones life to drug addiction. Those, however, are consequences of people's actions. Denying Jesus as Messiah is no different; it too, carries consequences.
again, fallacious parallel, the american justice system is not omniscient nor did it create abstract concepts and human beings from scratch. god is responsible for people entering hell.
and marchello, SHUT UP!