Originally posted by jadervason
Does it matter how much he can lift? He beat the BRAKES off of Thor; Superman barely knocked Thor off. There is a clear difference in physical power here...
Superman will dog walk Thor in seconds (if that long).
And beating someone doesn't prove strength.
Juggs beat Thor convincingly (before being BFR). Is he stronger than Supes? And comic fights hold no water if they are contradictory to what will really happen.
Originally posted by h1a8
ABC logic don't necessarily work.
But even if we assumed it did then Thor and Superman are not equals by any stretch of the imagination. So beating Thor in a physical doesn't mean you can beat Superman in a physical fight.
It isn't ABC logic per se. It is using mangog's physical feats to establish his power level. The only times ABC logic occurs is when people say something like Surfer > Superman, and Superman > wonder woman -- therefore Surfer > wonder woman, while ignoring the fact that some of surfers wins against Superman would be manipulation of the latter's weakness, while his power set would match up differently against wonder woman's.
I'm not saying beating Thor = beating Superman in a physical fight in the exact same way, but destroying Thor physically places Mangog's showings at a higher level than Superman's average. There is a difference between what I am saying and what you are insinuating.
Originally posted by h1a8
Superman will dog walk Thor in seconds (if that long).
And beating someone doesn't prove strength.
Juggs beat Thor convincingly (before being BFR). Is he stronger than Supes? And comic fights hold no water if they are contradictory to what will really happen.
Nonsense.
Beating someone doesn't prove strength, but it proves a superior culmination of attributes. However way you slice it, this superiority has to be assigned to certain characteristics. The only way this is different with Superman is if the latter can do something to Mangog in a physical fight that Thor cannot.
Juggs getting the physical advantage in any brawl is no surprise. Being invulnerable helps. Superman would have to BFR him for a victory as well, regardless of strength advantages.
Actually, barring PIS, CIS, large extenuating factors and distinctly outlying showings, theories about what should happen hold no weight against panel fights. I don't see how anyone can argue differently.
This is the same Superman who's been beat on by Capt Marvel, Batman etc., Thor being one of his toughest opponents he's faced and that crossover does count i.e. Cosmic Egg.
I mean seriously the whole of Asgard couldn't take out Mangog when he came back so you've got loads of superman esque characters beating on the dude and he's still walking around kicking ass as if it isn't happening.
Seriously Superman would die again in this fight.
Originally posted by h1a8Your destroying your credibility. No one debates like you. No one has ever claimed to my knowledge that comic book fights hold no water. Take back this statement.
Superman will dog walk Thor in seconds (if that long).
And beating someone doesn't prove strength.
Juggs beat Thor convincingly (before being BFR). Is he stronger than Supes? And comic fights hold no water if they are contradictory to what will really happen.
Originally posted by Ouallada
It isn't ABC logic per se. It is using mangog's physical feats to establish his power level. The only times ABC logic occurs is when people say something like Surfer > Superman, and Superman > wonder woman -- therefore Surfer > wonder woman, while ignoring the fact that some of surfers wins against Superman would be manipulation of the latter's weakness, while his power set would match up differently against wonder woman's.I'm not saying beating Thor = beating Superman in a physical fight in the exact same way, but destroying Thor physically places Mangog's showings at a higher level than Superman's average. There is a difference between what I am saying and what you are insinuating.
Juggs destroyed Thor physically too.
You must look at some logic.
Pretend one is just slightly stronger than Thor with great speed and durability. Then that person would appear to be destroying Thor physically as well. Anyway, what did Mangog do to make you use the term 'destroy physically'? I don't consider hitting Thor on the ground at super speed to be that (for Superman, WW, etc. can easily do that). I don't consider Mangog flipping Thor off of him to be doing that. I don't consider Mangog holding back Thor with his tail to be doing that. I don't think slapping the hammer away to be that. I don't think taking hits from the hammer to be that (because it only shows durability). I don't think struggling to lift a big sword is that. Is there anything I missed?
My argument is strength alone and not durability. Mangog hasn't shown that anyone with slightly greater than Thor's strength, decent speed, and super durability couldn't do.
Originally posted by Ouallada
Nonsense.Beating someone doesn't prove strength, but it proves a superior culmination of attributes. However way you slice it, this superiority has to be assigned to certain characteristics. The only way this is different with Superman is if the latter can do something to Mangog in a physical fight that Thor cannot.
Juggs getting the physical advantage in any brawl is no surprise. Being invulnerable helps. Superman would have to BFR him for a victory as well, regardless of strength advantages.
Actually, barring PIS, CIS, large extenuating factors and distinctly outlying showings, theories about what should happen hold no weight against panel fights. I don't see how anyone can argue differently.
Juggs wouldn't even hit Superman once though. And if he did I doubt it would even effect him. Also, you make a point. But the point was already brought up by me already. The point is that it takes different attributes to determine a winner. I choose to argue the strength one first. Then I was going the speed route. Then I was going the durability route. Then I was going the tactical route (Superman's and Mangog's optimal strategies).
With that said, Fangirl101 had the best post of us all. With that post proves that he/she is a great debater and that Mangog could possibly win the majority. This is due to his magical abilities coupled with his insane durability. So the only argument left is can Superman BFR him
(Can Mangog fly or teleport?)?
Originally posted by quanchi112
Your destroying your credibility. No one debates like you. No one has ever claimed to my knowledge that comic book fights hold no water. Take back this statement.
Note: I stated a stipulation on that statement
"...if the fight contradicts what will happen if they really fought."
For example, if Spiderman can dodge bullets and lasers easily with his speed, reflexes, and SS then he shouldn't get hit by a plain straight punch to the face or by a bouncing cane in the back of the head.
Originally posted by h1a8You are still ignoring what happens in the comic books entirely too much. Thats why we debate. We cant ignore the outcomes of comic book fights because we could see it another way. We have to use them as evidence otherwise its just a powerset battle completely ignoring the characters.
Note: I stated a stipulation on that statement"...if the fight contradicts what will happen if they really fought."
For example, if Spiderman can dodge bullets and lasers easily with his speed, reflexes, and SS then he shouldn't get hit by a plain straight punch to the face or by a bouncing cane in the back of the head.
Originally posted by h1a8
Juggs wouldn't even hit Superman once though. And if he did I doubt it would even effect him. Also, you make a point. But the point was already brought up by me already. The point is that it takes different attributes to determine a winner. I choose to argue the strength one first. Then I was going the speed route. Then I was going the durability route. Then I was going the tactical route (Superman's and Mangog's optimal strategies).With that said, Fangirl101 had the best post of us all. With that post proves that he/she is a great debater and that Mangog could possibly win the majority. This is due to his magical abilities coupled with his insane durability. So the only argument left is can Superman BFR him
(Can Mangog fly or teleport?)?
And logically, Juggernaut should never be able to hit anything that can fly around as fast as Thor either. The fact of the matter is that Juggernaut is impossible to defeat physically, if we are talking about the classic version. To get a victory, Superman would have to BFR him.
We already know that Mangog can amp himself a la Hulk, overpowered Thor and beat his way through Asgard, has combat speed high enough that the Recorder could not keep up, and is durable enough to shrug off an anti-force blast (Thor's ultimate weapon during that era) and considers Thor's blows to be mosquito bites. A combination of all those factors give us Mangog's physical level as evidenced by his brawls. That is a level higher than Superman's own. Of course, you would insist on using only high showings, in which case my question still stands.
PG > fully prepped Strange.
Anyone with PG >= skyfather even though the PG has lower showings?