Superman vs Mangog

Started by KuRuPT Thanosi53 pages
KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member

Originally posted by h1a8
Common sense is the authority friend. Not me nor you nor the writers. It is clear that the writer portrayed that Superman was pulling a whole planet. These characters never existed so it is not possible nor is it sensible to examine whether magic was negating the gravitational force. Because the feat never happened. All that matters is what the writer tries to portray, that doesn't go against common sense or isn't contradictory.

This is where you are clearly wrong. IF it was no Sun and the Earth was at standstill then it would take a force the magnitude of the weight of the Earth itself to accelerated it at 9.8m/s^2.
I explained your flaw above. You don't quite understand Newton's 1st and 2nd laws.

Only basic physics can be applied to comics (Newton's Laws). Otherwise we couldn't debate on who is stronger, faster, etc.

But here are a few of the scans. The first one (the weakest one) is where my calculations come from. The second one is far greater since Superman is pulling solo against the mass of the Earth, the Sun's gravity (which can be negated), and against Starbreaker's own force (which is in the multitude of stars and was moving the Earth towards the Sun at incredible speed).

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7512/wwpullstheearth.jpg

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/3946/supermanpullsplanetsolo.jpg

And let us not forget about Mageddon which dwarfs the entire Earth moon system all together.

How does superman saying that flight helps him accomplish the strength feats he pulls off fit into your equation. Do you have a formula for that aspect?

Face of Olympus Duck Butt Donaldo

Originally posted by h1a8
Damaging a celestial shell is nothing.
Thor making a weak Galactus flee is nothing.
Odin can end Thor with a twink of his eye, anything less is PIS (or severe holding back).

First of all I think Superman is far above Thor because of two reasons.

1. Multi-planetary strength vs. million ton strength.
2. Instant vibrating speed vs. mere super human speed.

You think Thor has Human speed ?

😑

h1a8 Senior Member

Originally posted by Face of Olympus
You think Thor has Human speed ?

😑

I think you misread. Please read what I wrote again.
I'm clueless to how you could miss a critical word like 'super'.

h1a8 Senior Member
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How does superman saying that flight helps him accomplish the strength feats he pulls off fit into your equation. Do you have a formula for that aspect?

Interesting!!

Maybe Superman's flight strength is greater than his natural strength.
So I guess his planet moving feats isn't a great judge of his natural strength. Good thinking!

D_Dude1210 Doink!
Originally posted by h1a8
Common sense is the authority friend. Not me nor you nor the writers. It is clear that the writer portrayed that Superman was pulling a whole planet. These characters never existed so it is not possible nor is it sensible to examine whether magic was negating the gravitational force. Because the feat never happened. All that matters is what the writer tries to portray, that doesn't go against common sense or isn't contradictory.

"Common Sense" would also dictate that the Earth would not be moves without it crumbling. Common sense applied on one aspect and then ignored in the other only shows your double standard/bias or your sheer desperation in trying to get your flawed "logic" accepted.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is where you are clearly wrong. IF it was no Sun and the Earth was at standstill then it would take a force the magnitude of the weight of the Earth itself to accelerated it at 9.8m/s^2.
I explained your flaw above. You don't quite understand Newton's 1st and 2nd laws.

Actually, it's clear that you do not understand Newton's Laws at all and (FYI, the Earth cannot be accelerated by its own gravity), more importantly, you really DID NOT AND CANNOT seem to grasp my post. So let me speak slowly so you can understand it:

Magic and the GL ring has (potentially) the ability to cancel out certain forces (like the gravity of the sun, moon, etc.) in order to achieve certain actions (like pulling a planet) possible without inflicting massive damage to the surface of the planet.

The inclusion of these items (GL and magical lasso) into the equation NEGATES the possibility of being able to quantify the exact forces Superman was struggling against. Meaning this feat CANNOT be used to measure Superman's strength.

Originally posted by h1a8
Only basic physics can be applied to comics (Newton's Laws). Otherwise we couldn't debate on who is stronger, faster, etc.

So you're saying that a planet crumbling under it's own weight when being pulled by a magical rope ISN'T "basic physics" and ISN'T based on "common sense"?? Wow.

So now you are the one selecting w/c physical law is allowed and w/c is not? You are not the authority in comic book physics my friend. Thus, repeating BS statements like that is pointless.

Originally posted by h1a8
But here are a few of the scans. The first one (the weakest one) is where my calculations come from. The second one is far greater since Superman is pulling solo against the mass of the Earth, the Sun's gravity (which can be negated), and against Starbreaker's own force (which is in the multitude of stars and was moving the Earth towards the Sun at incredible speed).

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7512/wwpullstheearth.jpg

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/3946/supermanpullsplanetsolo.jpg

And let us not forget about Mageddon which dwarfs the entire Earth moon system all together.

First scan: WW lasso

Second scan: GL Ring

Both had variables that could or could not have negated the other forces applied to the planet. Thus both feats are disqualified.

-Pr- Hey Yo!
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How does superman saying that flight helps him accomplish the strength feats he pulls off fit into your equation. Do you have a formula for that aspect?

john byrne = retconned.

also, can someome please post a scan of mangog that shows how superior he is? then i can close the thread.

h1a8 Senior Member

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
"Common Sense" would also dictate that the Earth would not be moves without it crumbling. Common sense applied on one aspect and then ignored in the other only shows your double standard/bias or your sheer desperation in trying to get your flawed "logic" accepted.
It is not common sense that the Earth will crumble, otherwise PC superboy would have never drag those dozens of planets. Tell anyone (except actual Physicists) that Superman can push a planet and no one will find the problem here.

Actually, it's clear that you do not understand Newton's Laws at all and (FYI, the Earth cannot be accelerated by its own gravity), more importantly, you really DID NOT AND CANNOT seem to grasp my post. So let me speak slowly so you can understand it:
Come on man. You are looking silly here over some very basic physics. What does Earth gravity have to do with anything? If Earth didn't have ANY gravity whatsoever that doesn't change the fact that it takes a force of magnitude the weight of the Earth to move it at 9.8m/s^2. Remember F=MA (Mass of the Earth times 9.8m/s^2=Weight of the Earth) Mass and Weight are not the same thing. Weight is a force, mass is not.

Magic and the GL ring has (potentially) the ability to cancel out certain forces (like the gravity of the sun, moon, etc.) in order to achieve certain actions (like pulling a planet) possible without inflicting massive damage to the surface of the planet.

Ok let me ask you something. In the absence of gravity how much force would it take to accelerate a 1ton object at 9.8m/s^2? If you say 0 then I know where your mistake is coming from.

The inclusion of these items (GL and magical lasso) into the equation NEGATES the possibility of being able to quantify the exact forces Superman was struggling against. Meaning this feat CANNOT be used to measure Superman's strength.

It is clear that Superman is stronger than both GL and WW. Thus he was pulling with at least 1/3 of the force. How much more is unknown. So you are right that we don't know EXACTLY how much force Superman was struggling with.

So you're saying that a planet crumbling under it's own weight when being pulled by a magical rope ISN'T "basic physics" and ISN'T based on "common sense"?? Wow.

Magic becomes the new common sense when it is applied. So if it is common sense that a planet will crumble under natural circumstances then it is common sense that it won't under magical influence.

So now you are the one selecting w/c physical law is allowed and w/c is not? You are not the authority in comic book physics my friend. Thus, repeating BS statements like that is pointless.

I'm not the authority. Comics are. My ruling is just the summary of the comic ruling. Obviously comics consistently throw all higher science theory out of the window. The only theories that are consistent is Newton's Laws.

First scan: WW lasso

Second scan: GL Ring

Both had variables that could or could not have negated the other forces applied to the planet. Thus both feats are disqualified.

The first scan I already negated the Sun's gravity force in the calculation. In the second scan, GL was only creating the construct and Superman was doing all of the pulling. Why you keep arguing like these characters actually exist and the feats actually happened? In comics if something isn't portrayed (either explicitly or implicitly) then it doesn't exist. This is common sense.

psycho gundam The Nightmare of Solomon

mangog stomps

KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member
Originally posted by psycho gundam
mangog stomps and I don't know why this thread is still open

Fixed my friend 😛 😄

rotiart Stan Lee Stole my name

I read through 15 pages. Personally I think mangog wins...
The strength argument to me is stupid...Thor lifts things like the Midgard serpent.. Ties with Hercules in that arm wrestling contest... Hercules the guy that held up the sky itself for atlas...
Arguing speed is stupid. Thor and his equal beta Ray bill (as seen in godhunter) are fast enough to tag surfer... And mangog has tagged Thor plenty...in fact I can't think of an issue where mangog missed trying to tag Thor...
Durability, pshaw. Going off old books ain't gonna tell you squat when going off handbooks. Heck at one point Marvel comic card had people rate on a scale of one to seven... Silver surfer would have tied with living tribunal and Thor for strength, speed and energy projection!

And Thor is just about the equal of Thor as chpions of their respective realms. Didn't the jla/avengers crossover have each win a fight against the other... And wasn't that cannon? This single point I forget.

But my point us that Thor is the marvel equivalent of superman and he is consistently defaced by mangog..

Supermans mangog to me is doomsday who... Well let's be honest... Doesn't have consistently beatings over superman... Yet a similar powerset to mangog.

I don't mind hia8 upholding his beliefs... But tbh calling the rest of us sheep fooled by mangogs strength and durability just makes me call back at a superman fanboy that he needs to take off the red tablecloth he wears around his neck.

D_Dude1210 Doink!
Originally posted by h1a8
It is not common sense that the Earth will crumble, otherwise PC superboy would have never drag those dozens of planets. Tell anyone (except actual Physicists) that Superman can push a planet and no one will find the problem here.

The we operate at different levels of common sense, my friend. Which makes me feel real sorry for you.... -_-

Originally posted by h1a8
Ok let me ask you something. In the absence of gravity how much force would it take to accelerate a 1ton object at 9.8m/s^2?

THIS is what I meant by you having no idea of Newton's laws... :-/

The acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 IS gravity.... or don't you know that?

And if it isn't and you just somehow plucked a value very similar to gravitational acceleration (wherine you never stated WHERE you derived this value), then you have given ZERO reason WHY this acceleration would be unaffected by the same plot items that would have neutralized the gravity in the first place...

Originally posted by h1a8
If you say 0 then I know where your mistake is coming from.

Actually, NO. You have NO idea of what I'm trying to say...

Sigh...

Let me state it AGAIN...

The FACT that there is an unquantifiable variable that may SIGNIFICANTLY AND DIRECTLY affects other variables inserted into the equation MEANS that the entire feat cannot be quantified as no exact value can be determined... do you get it???

Originally posted by h1a8
It is clear that Superman is stronger than both GL and WW. Thus he was pulling with at least 1/3 of the force. How much more is unknown. So you are right that we don't know EXACTLY how much force Superman was struggling with. Magic becomes the new common sense when it is applied. So if it is common sense that a planet will crumble under natural circumstances then it is common sense that it won't under magical influence.[QUOTE=12341199]Originally posted by h1a8 [B]

With this reasoning, the Thor infinity weight feat becomes viable.

[QUOTE=12341199]Originally posted by h1a8
[B]I'm not the authority. Comics are.

Correct, you are not the authority, so you have to PROVE that the statements you make are correct based on comic on-panel proof and do this without some sort of outside variable affecting this proof. Especially when you start throwing around numbers...

Originally posted by h1a8
My ruling is just the summary of the comic ruling. Obviously comics consistently throw all higher science theory out of the window.

We don't go by your "rulings" as you've already shown a limited understanding of real world physics...

Originally posted by h1a8
The only theories that are consistent is Newton's Laws.

W/c you are NOT familiar with.

Originally posted by h1a8
The first scan I already negated the Sun's gravity force in the calculation. In the second scan, GL was only creating the construct and Superman was doing all of the pulling. Why you keep arguing like these characters actually exist and the feats actually happened? In comics if something isn't portrayed (either explicitly or implicitly) then it doesn't exist. This is common sense.

You cannot prove in ANY of those scans that the exact forces that were negated were the ONLY items negated.... again, you are just simply making assumptions, making conjectures and making stuff up.

Also, FYI, we don't throw in "common sense" arguments when we start throwing around physics equations. People used to believe it was "common sense" that the Earth was flat. They weren't actually correct were they?

h1a8 Senior Member
Originally posted by psycho gundam
mangog gets stomped

Fixed.

h1a8 Senior Member

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
The we operate at different levels of common sense, my friend. Which makes me feel real sorry for you.... -_-

THIS is what I meant by you having no idea of Newton's laws... :-/

The acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 IS gravity.... or don't you know that?

And if it isn't and you just somehow plucked a value very similar to gravitational acceleration (wherine you never stated WHERE you derived this value), then you have given ZERO reason WHY this acceleration would be unaffected by the same plot items that would have neutralized the gravity in the first place...

I know the acceleration of gravity is 9.8 that is why I used it. I could have used any other acceleration as it doesn't change ANYTHING. I used the standard 9.8 as a measuring stick to determine force in equal lbs, nothing more.

In the absence of all gravity it takes about 200lb of force to acceleration a 1ton object at 1m/s^2. It takes about 1000lb of force to accelerate the same object 5m/s^2 and Finally it takes 1ton of force to accelerate the same 1 ton object 9.8m/s^2. Get it now? Just to make sure, how much force does it take to accelerate a 1ton object 20m/s^2? An object remains at rest unless a force is acted on it. Obviously the Earth wouldn't move if Superman didn't apply a force to it. The stronger the force he applies then the faster the planet will accelerate. If he applies a small force then the planet would accelerate a small amount. If he applies a large force then the planet would accelerate a large amount. This has nothing to do with any gravity force from anywhere. Only F=MA!


Actually, NO. You have NO idea of what I'm trying to say...

Sigh...

Let me state it AGAIN...

The FACT that there is an unquantifiable variable that may SIGNIFICANTLY AND DIRECTLY affects other variables inserted into the equation MEANS that the entire feat cannot be quantified as no exact value can be determined... do you get it???

If you don't answer the question then it impossible for me to determine your fault (or mine). So I ask again. How much force would it take, in the absence of all gravity, to accelerate a 1 ton object at 1m/s^2? Just answer by saying either "0" or "some positive amount of force".


Correct, you are not the authority, so you have to PROVE that the statements you make are correct based on comic on-panel proof and do this without some sort of outside variable affecting this proof. Especially when you start throwing around numbers...

Superman physically overpowered WW thus proving he is stronger.
A mad Superman physically busted through Hal's shields and overpowered his constructs thus proving that his strength is greater than the ring's power. Thus Superman was pulling with at least 1/3 of the entire force. I don't care how much exact force Superman was pulling with. I only care what was the minimum force he was pulling with.


We don't go by your "rulings" as you've already shown a limited understanding of real world physics...
You can go by Mickey Mouse's ruling if you like. I can't control you or anyone else. But what the writer intended to show is the truth (whether you like it or not). So use your best unbias thinking to figure out what the writer wanted to show and you will be able to see clearly. Otherwise you are just hiding the truth from yourself.

You cannot prove in ANY of those scans that the exact forces that were negated were the ONLY items negated.... again, you are just simply making assumptions, making conjectures and making stuff up.

Superman clearly said that he felt the force Starbreaker was pulling the Earth with. This proves that Superman was directly pulling against Starbreaker and the inertial of the Earth.

Also, FYI, we don't throw in "common sense" arguments when we start throwing around physics equations. People used to believe it was "common sense" that the Earth was flat. They weren't actually correct were they?
Common sense has nothing to do with the truth but what is normally accepted. F=MA is normally accepted. Otherwise force, mass, speed, weight, etc. would all be meaningless and there would be no sense of debating comics ever.

rotiart Stan Lee Stole my name

It's Sunday at a catholic church...
Superman is the choir boy...
mangog is the pastor...

Superman cries for his mommy.

h1a8 Senior Member

Originally posted by rotiart
I read through 15 pages. Personally I think mangog wins...
The strength argument to me is stupid...Thor lifts things like the Midgard serpent.. Ties with Hercules in that arm wrestling contest... Hercules the guy that held up the sky itself for atlas...

Thor never lifted the entire Serpent under his own power. The fishing feat had the Serpent mostly in ghostly form plus the boat was assisting. And the other feat clearly showed and indicated that Thor only got a portion of the Serpent off the ground. Which proves that Thor can lift in the millions of tons.

Atlas and Hercules wasn't lifting anything but merely posing. What would happen if Atlas or Hercules ceased to hold up the non thing that they were holding up? What the Earth had fell down? If so, where? A normal Hulk has already overpowered Hercules thus proving Hercules is far under Superman in strength.
[quote][b]
Arguing speed is stupid. Thor and his equal beta Ray bill (as seen in godhunter) are fast enough to tag surfer... And mangog has tagged Thor plenty...in fact I can't think of an issue where mangog missed trying to tag Thor...
Durability, pshaw. Going off old books ain't gonna tell you squat when going off handbooks. Heck at one point Marvel comic card had people rate on a scale of one to seven... Silver surfer would have tied with living tribunal and Thor for strength, speed and energy projection!
Tagging beings who are fast doesn't prove that the tagger is fast. This is because it is known that characters don't always use their speed in comics. Just look at the Gladiator Hulk fight for crying out loud. Just look at the Surfer WM Thor fight when Thor was stranded in the middle of space with no hammer and Surfer couldn't even hit him (wtf?). Look at Hulk vs. Thor too.

And Thor is just about the equal of Thor as chpions of their respective realms. Didn't the jla/avengers crossover have each win a fight against the other... And wasn't that cannon? This single point I forget.
It wasn't cannon although it showed Superman being much stronger.

But my point us that Thor is the marvel equivalent of superman and he is consistently defaced by mangog..
If Thor is marvel equivalent to Superman then Marvel is very very weak in comparison to D.C. characters. What seemingly makes Thor a match for Superman is his superior versatility of his hammer while Superman retains superior physicality. Otherwise if they were equals in the physical department Thor would win 10/10 which no one here would agree to (even The Thor fans).

Supermans mangog to me is doomsday who... Well let's be honest... Doesn't have consistently beatings over superman... Yet a similar powerset to mangog.

I don't mind hia8 upholding his beliefs... But tbh calling the rest of us sheep fooled by mangogs strength and durability just makes me call back at a superman fanboy that he needs to take off the red tablecloth he wears around his neck.

Doomsday is stronger that Superman and insanely fast. Much much faster than mangog has ever shown.

The only way most think Mangog beats Superman is because they believe Thor is near the physical of that of Superman. This isn't true and thus Mangog beating on Thor doesn't mean he will treat Superman in the same manner. I don't see a billion billion beings being necessarily stronger than Superman, especially of some of the feats Superman has done. Hell Superman can move over a billion billion tons.

D_Dude1210 Doink!

Originally posted by h1a8
I know the acceleration of gravity is 9.8 that is why I used it. I could have used any other acceleration as it doesn't change ANYTHING. I used the standard 9.8 as a measuring stick to determine force in equal lbs, nothing more.

Blah, blah, blah, numbers, etc...

You're STILL not getting it. Geeeeez. This argument ISN'T about how much force or acceleration or whatever. It's about whether or not the feat itself is admissible as a measurement of the person's strength. The addition of a variable that may significantly affect the numbers involved DISQUALIFIES the feat as a usable evidence of measurement.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman physically overpowered WW thus proving he is stronger.
A mad Superman physically busted through Hal's shields and overpowered his constructs thus proving that his strength is greater than the ring's power. Thus Superman was pulling with at least 1/3 of the entire force. I don't care how much exact force Superman was pulling with. I only care what was the minimum force he was pulling with.

Irrelevant. See above argument.

Originally posted by h1a8
You can go by Mickey Mouse's ruling if you like. I can't control you or anyone else. But what the writer intended to show is the truth (whether you like it or not). So use your best unbias thinking to figure out what the writer wanted to show and you will be able to see clearly. Otherwise you are just hiding the truth from yourself.

Again, with this reasoning, the Thor infinity lifting feat becomes viable.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman clearly said that he felt the force Starbreaker was pulling the Earth with. This proves that Superman was directly pulling against Starbreaker and the inertial of the Earth.

He did. However, nothing he said quantifies the amount, especially taking into consideration the GL ring that aided in the feat.

Originally posted by h1a8
Common sense has nothing to do with the truth but what is normally accepted. F=MA is normally accepted. Otherwise force, mass, speed, weight, etc. would all be meaningless and there would be no sense of debating comics ever.

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies/common_belief.htm

-Pr- Hey Yo!

Originally posted by rotiart
It's Sunday at a catholic church...
Superman is the choir boy...
mangog is the pastor...

Superman cries for his mommy.

that's disgusting.

rotiart Stan Lee Stole my name

Doomsday is stronger than superman... Ie if superman can bench billions upon billions and doomsday is stronger than why don't we see the citys getting wrecked just by his mere motions?

Doomsday would haveoved the earth itself with his incredible strength

btw there's a scan out there of hulk punchin hat looks like a reality IMO existence...

And hulk holding two halves of a planet together

and what about the Hercules feats? And him tying with Thor strenghwise

thanos equated champion with the power gem being the equivalent of hulk... And champion one shot a planet...

Yet even the hulk loses...

And superman being as fast as he is.... Still loses bouts to green lantern types... Guys with incredible powers but no real super speed... How is that any different from fighting mangog w ho is powerful in his own way

h1a8 Senior Member

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You're STILL not getting it. Geeeeez. This argument ISN'T about how much force or acceleration or whatever. It's about whether or not the feat itself is admissible as a measurement of the person's strength. The addition of a variable that may significantly affect the numbers involved DISQUALIFIES the feat as a usable evidence of measurement.
The feat is admissible since a lower bound can be placed on it. The lower bound comes from calculated the force in the absence of all gravity. Remember a quantifiable feat is not a feat that can be exactly calculated. But rather it is a feat that a lower bound for it can be exactly calculated.


Again, with this reasoning, the Thor infinity lifting feat becomes viable.
No it doesn't because the Alien could have been lying. Pulling an Earth is self explanatory and doesn't need commentary by a character. Actually the alien was lying since Thor would have sunk if he weighed infinite force. Plus Thor would never get overpowered by anyone since he can overpower infinite force. But we all know what Mangog did. A contradiction proves that the assumption is false.


He did. However, nothing he said quantifies the amount, especially taking into consideration the GL ring that aided in the feat.
Doesn't matter. If Superman felt the pull of Starbreaker then he obviously was pulling the Earth by his lonesome. Otherwise how would he even feel the force Starbreaker was pulling with and not just the mere planet itself.

My version of common sense is anything that doesn't lead to a contradiction.

rotiart Stan Lee Stole my name

Btw what is this billions upon billions of tons strength feat of yours. Is it the moving of the one planet?