Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Are you saying that Goku is by far the strongest, the fastest, the most durable character ever in all mediums?
Not at all but what I am saying is that no one has shown to use their speed in combat like Goku has (not talking about skyfathers, etc..), no one has shown to take a beating like Goku has when fighting there peers and the punching power of DBZ characters is outstanding.
I think Goku's in the same class as Supes but below Thor and Surfer due to overall abilities, personally. Goku has a very high energy and destruction output, top rank speed and fighting skill, but beyond that, he doesn't have any exotic abilites. Any competent energy manipulator that could shield themselves from his melee barrage should be able to beat him. He'd have a horrible time beating the top Lanterns like Hal or Sinestro, and someone with a Surfer like powerset should clean sweep him.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Yes Goku has an impressive damage soak. He can take a beating extended time better than anyone without a healing factor in comics (except Invincible). The main characters of Hajime ippo and Kenichi hose Goku in the ability to take an extended beating and still win. But they don't beat Goku because they're just not as powerful.Superman's durability showings outstrip Goku's. You know this that's why your changing tactics. By logic Goku is more durable than Galactus because he's never taken that exact sequence of attacks.
You always downplay Superman's feats. Does that mean you think a high end Superman is more powerful than Goku? Is that why you focus on lower showings? Surely if you think goku can destroy a galaxy why do need to bring Superman down? None of us think he's at that level. you just have to prove Goku is a strong as you think he is.
What you fail to realize is that a lot of anime character dont revolve around holding black holes or moving planets or saving the day by stopping a plane from dropping; anime character revolves around FIGHTING, its the main key of all anime. Why would Goku hold a black hold when fighting frieza or Buu. What reasons does Goku have to move a planet, why does Goku need to stop a plane from falling when we know that the people in the plane is going to die anyway.
You cant compare the two off those said feats. There is no reason for Goku to fight in the sun. WHY?
But when you compare the two when they are pitted in the same situation, Goku along with numerous of other DBZ characters walk all over any heralds.
Originally posted by illadelph12
I think Goku's in the same class as Supes but below Thor and Surfer due to overall abilities, personally. Goku has a very high energy and destruction output, top rank speed and fighting skill, but beyond that, he doesn't have any exotic abilites. Any competent energy manipulator that could shield themselves from his melee barrage should be able to beat him. He'd have a horrible time beating the top Lanterns like Hal or Sinestro, and someone with a Surfer like powerset should clean sweep him.
So you are basing them off of versatility?
I cant see a GL standing up to Goku let alone Superman.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Punching feats please.So your saying no in fiction is as good at speed fighting as Goku?
Flash but again, you cant compare flight speed to combat speed. Thats where people tend to fail at, they confuse the two. Honestly, I think Goku flight speed SUCK A** but his combat speed along with his short burst is on another level.
Originally posted by carver9
Not at all but what I am saying is that no one has shown to use their speed in combat like Goku has (not talking about skyfathers, etc..), no one has shown to take a beating like Goku has when fighting there peers and the punching power of DBZ characters is outstanding.
Superman, Hulk, Juggernaut, Thor have all took incredible beatings from their peers.
Flash, Superman, Surfer, Gladiator all are able to use their speed just as well if not better.
Prime has punched through reality, Trion punched through dimensions. No one in DBZ has done that or anything close to that with a punch.
Originally posted by carver9
Flash but again, you cant compare flight speed to combat speed. Thats where people tend to fail at, they confuse the two. Honestly, I think Goku flight speed SUCK A** but his combat speed along with his short burst is on another level.
Superman has plenty of combat speed feats,you know this you've been shown them.
Once again punching feats, I want them.
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Superman, Hulk, Juggernaut, Thor have all took incredible beatings from their peers.Flash, Superman, Surfer, Gladiator all are able to use their speed just as well if not better.
Prime has punched through reality, Trion punched through dimensions. No one in DBZ has done that or anything close to that with a punch.
Show me these incredible beatings that compare to what Goku went through.
Flight speed, I agree with, combat speed, hell no. The only one that compares is flash and flash doesnt even use his speed in the same fashion as a DBZ character. It takes a rock that is 6 ft high about a second to hit the ground right? Well Goku and frieza fought so fast that the rocks that were around them (after crushing through a mountain) stood still, as if time stopped while they did an entire fight scene.
Prime punched through reality? Trion is the embodiment of strength and he is also a skyfather so I agree with you, no one in DBZ has done that.
Originally posted by carver9
So you are basing them off of versatility?I cant see a GL standing up to Goku let alone Superman.
Tier placements are supposed to be based on overall ability, not just fighting competence, though that does play a part.
Goku's abilities are pretty much all offensive and one dimensional, which is why I don't rank him higher. Just like why I don't think much of Hulk.
And yes, I think some GLs can beat Supes using their brains and the abilities of their rings. Supes is stronger and faster, but their powers, used properly, easily trump his. Maybe not Ch'p, but I'd give odds to Hal, Sinestro, or Alan, and possibly current Guy and Kilowog, etc.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Superman has plenty of combat speed feats,you know this you've been shown them.Once again punching feats, I want them.
Did I ever say that Superman was slow? No I didnt but what I did say is that Superman doesnt compare to any DBZ when it comes to combat speed because all in all, he doesnt.
I do agree with one thing though, Superman flight speed>>>Goku.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Tier placements are supposed to be based on overall ability, not just fighting competence, though that does play a part.Goku's abilities are pretty much all offensive and one dimensional, which is why I don't rank him higher. Just like why I don't think much of Hulk.
And yes, I think some GLs can beat Supes using their brains and the abilities of their rings. Supes is stronger and faster, but their powers, used properly, easily trump his. Maybe not Ch'p, but I'd give odds to Hal, Sinestro, or Alan, and possibly current Guy and Kilowog, etc.
Superman has shown numerous of times that he can beat a GL.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Carver, you used to say that Superman couldn't fight faster than the speed of sound, when even his basic bullet catching feats put that notion to rest.Do you really think you of all people should be evaluating his combat speed?
LOL, I never said that Superman couldnt fight faster than sound but what I did say is that his fastest showing of combat speed was shown at the speed of sound.
Originally posted by carver9
LOL, I never said that Superman couldnt fight faster than sound but what I did say is that his fastest showing of combat speed was shown at the speed of sound.
eh, no it wasn't. his fastest one is FAR faster.
but go on, what one are you referring to?
catching a bullet is a combat speed feat. we've been over this.
Originally posted by -Pr-If he were to accept the facts as given he'd have to merge alot that he's separated out simply to have goku be the best. Some pweople separate out "combat speed" from other movement speeds, such as bullet catching and even Superman's speed reading.
eh, no it wasn't. his fastest one is FAR faster.but go on, what one are you referring to?
catching a bullet is a combat speed feat. we've been over this.
This is not allowed because then he'd have to accept that maybe, just maybe, goku isn't as powerful as he thinks.
Because Goku revolves around fighting and as he said that's all goku has, and he has to be the best.