Mixed Genre & Comic Tier Reference Guide

Hmm...

There's something that I think we need to iron out in these discussions. It's in regards to unquantifiable speed. When we know a character has superspeed, but to what degree is not explicitly stated, how would we determine the degree? The Matrix, for example. It's clear that all of the Agents have superspeed reflexes (those bullet dodging after images, effortlessly dodging point blank gun fire, Agent Smith's machine gun punching of Neo in the Subway fight scene), but their speed is never explicitly stated. Nor is Neo's speed ever actually quantified, we just know he can move, react, and fly very, very fast (like flying out of a building as it's exploding, and ripping up all those cars in his wake to go to save Trinity. Plus there's the famous bullet time dodge from the first film, and his blocking all of Smith's superspeed punches).

In a situation like the Matrix, where the speed is never stated, but is strongly implied and clearly shown to be high end, do we deem it comparable to comic superspeed? And to what degree? Would Neo be Quicksilver fast or Superman fast?

If his best feat were dodging or out running a bullet, wouldn't you just call him a bullet timer?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

There's something that I think we need to iron out in these discussions. It's in regards to unquantifiable speed. When we know a character has superspeed, but to what degree is not explicitly stated, how would we determine the degree? The Matrix, for example. It's clear that all of the Agents have superspeed reflexes (those bullet dodging after images, effortlessly dodging point blank gun fire, Agent Smith's machine gun punching of Neo in the Subway fight scene), but their speed is never explicitly stated. Nor is Neo's speed ever actually quantified, we just know he can move, react, and fly very, very fast (like flying out of a building as it's exploding, and ripping up all those cars in his wake to go to save Trinity. Plus there's the famous bullet time dodge from the first film, and his blocking all of Smith's superspeed punches).

In a situation like the Matrix, where the speed is never stated, but is strongly implied and clearly shown to be high end, do we deem it comparable to comic superspeed? And to what degree? Would Neo be Quicksilver fast or Superman fast?

I completely agree. As I have mentioned in this thread, Date has superspeed, Hideyoshi can punch extremely fast similar to Ken's Hyakuretsu-Ken. We can't say exactly how fast it is, just because it's illustrated as barely visible, it doesn't mean that say Spider-Man couldn't dodge them, and nothing really says that he's punching as fast as Superman can.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
If his best feat were dodging or out running a bullet, wouldn't you just call him a bullet timer?

His (Neo's) best speed feat isn't dodging bullets, it's dodging the Agents, who themselves were so fast they could effortlessly dodge bullets. So by extension, Neo is far faster than something that is far faster than bullets, just not a quantifiable faster. More evidence of this is the damage he did when flying through the city to save Trinity. I'm not sure how fast he was going, but it was fast enough to catch a woman who dove out of the, what, 14th floor (?) of a building and was in complete free fall (engaged in a gun fight with an Agent), and Neo was flying from the opposite side of town? Neo also flew 500 Miles to save Neo and the Keymaker in a matter of what, 45 seconds, and then accelerated and snatched them out of the head on collision of two big rigs within the time frame of an explosion (which, due to his speed, appeared to be occuring in slow motion, save for his own movement).

Neo's way faster than a mere bullet dodger (like, say, Spiderman, who has dodged bullets), but nothing was clearly stated about how just fast he was, it was just shown and implied.

So Illa, where's the update?

Originally posted by illadelph12
His (Neo's) best speed feat isn't dodging bullets, it's dodging the Agents, who themselves were so fast they could effortlessly dodge bullets. So by extension, Neo is far faster than something that is far faster than bullets, just not a quantifiable faster. More evidence of this is the damage he did when flying through the city to save Trinity. I'm not sure how fast he was going, but it was fast enough to catch a woman who dove out of the, what, 14th floor (?) of a building and was in complete free fall (engaged in a gun fight with an Agent), and Neo was flying from the opposite side of town? Neo also flew 500 Miles to save Neo and the Keymaker in a matter of what, 45 seconds, and then accelerated and snatched them out of the head on collision of two big rigs within the time frame of an explosion (which, due to his speed, appeared to be occuring in slow motion, save for his own movement).

Neo's way faster than a mere bullet dodger (like, say, Spiderman, who has dodged bullets), but nothing was clearly stated about how just fast he was, it was just shown and implied.

i'm not so sure about that. Neo still had to block the agents, which implies to me that he was only slightly faster, not by any huge margin.

the disparity between flight speed and reflexes has to be considered, imo.

I'm sure Neo is way faster, that was just a hypothetical.

I just think the best we're going to get as far as quantifying goes is stuff like bullet timer, lightning reactions and FTL. Of course we could probably manage to do better than those with moar work. Take a look at what type of gun each bullet is shot from or nitpick when the person notices a lightning strike or something. Things like how much effort they put into it can be considered as well.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
So Illa, where's the update?

I'll try to make it tonight, but I'm supposed to watch movies with my girl so I'm not sure if I'll be able to.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm not so sure about that. Neo still had to block the agents, which implies to me that he was only slightly faster, not by any huge margin.

the disparity between flight speed and reflexes has to be considered, imo.

Well, in regards to Neo blocking the Agents' punches, it goes without saying that he'd want to deflect incoming attacks, but he was a great deal faster than the Agents were. If you remember at the end of the 1st film when Agent Smith attacked him in the hallway (after Neo stopped the bullets in mid air), his speed had reached a level that he was able to effortlessly block every attack Smith threw at him with one arm non-chalantly without looking. Also during that scene, when it showed the actual speed at which Neo was deflecting the attacks, his arm (the one arm he was using to block all of Smith's attacks) was moving insanely fast, and far faster than that of Smith. By the 2nd film Neo was so comfortable with his abilities he didn't have to put much effort into fighting Agents. He was surprised when the upgraded Agent was able to stop his attack, said "Hmm, upgrades", turned his dial up a notch, sonned them easily, struck a pose, then flew away. The Brawl with the hundreds of Smiths in the courtyard also showed he was much faster than an individual Agent (though he struggled with their extreme numbers). They (Agent Smith clones) each posessed superspeed and he was sonnin' them in droves.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I'll try to make it tonight, but I'm supposed to watch movies with my girl so I'm not sure if I'll be able to.

Well, in regards to Neo blocking the Agents' punches, it goes without saying that he'd want to deflect incoming attacks, but he was a great deal faster than the Agents were. If you remember at the end of the 1st film when Agent Smith attacked him in the hallway (after Neo stopped the bullets in mid air), his speed had reached a level that he was able to effortlessly block every attack Smith threw at him with one arm non-chalantly without looking. Also during that scene, when it showed the actual speed at which Neo was deflecting the attacks, his arm (the one arm he was using to block all of Smith's attacks) was moving insanely fast, and far faster than that of Smith. By the 2nd film Neo was so comfortable with his abilities he didn't have to put much effort into fighting Agents. He was surprised when the upgraded Agent was able to stop his attack, said "Hmm, upgrades", turned his dial up a notch, sonned them easily, struck a pose, then flew away. The Brawl with the hundreds of Smiths in the courtyard also showed he was much faster than an individual Agent (though he struggled with their extreme numbers). They (Agent Smith clones) each posessed superspeed and he was sonnin' them in droves.

i still don't think there's a huge disparity speed wise. is he faster? yes. by a whole lot more? not imo.

Neos speed varied a lot.

Some times he was able to effortlessly dodge bullets,take on hundreds of smiths at the same time,punch so fast that it appears time itself stops and more

And sometimes it doesn't look too far out of the range of someone like captain america.

Although I feel like adding this: The matrix is pure win.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Neos speed varied a lot.

Some times he was able to effortlessly dodge bullets,take on hundreds of smiths at the same time,punch so fast that it appears time itself stops and more

And sometimes it doesn't look too far out of the range of someone like captain america.

Although I feel like adding this: The matrix is pure win.

But how is that any different from, say, Superman's characterization? At times Supes is (grudgingly) God-like and moves so fast he's untouchable. At other times he's trading blows with Grundy. Now granted, Superman has a lot more opposing showings to those lows than Neo, I mean, over 50 years of material vs. 3 films, there's no comparison. However, within Neo's canon his abilities were mapped out, even if briefly. We know what he was capable of. Perhaps not the full extent, but a very reasonable amount to place him in a hierarchy. We may not be able to get an exact clock on his speed capabilities, but we could make a reasonable deduction, or even extrapolation, without being overly demanding, right?

Originally posted by illadelph12
But how is that any different from, say, Superman's characterization? At times Supes is (grudgingly) God-like and moves so fast he's untouchable. At other times he's trading blows with Grundy. Now granted, Superman has a lot more opposing showings to those lows than Neo, I mean, over 50 years of material vs. 3 films, there's no comparison. However, within Neo's canon his abilities were mapped out, even if briefly. We know what he was capable of. Perhaps not the full extent, but a very reasonable amount to place him in a hierarchy. We may not be able to get an exact clock on his speed capabilities, but we could make a reasonable deduction, or even extrapolation, without being overly demanding, right?

So where would a happy medium for neo be?I mean neo has punched so fast that time seemed to stop.And he has also done just a little above peak human things(non-chalantly though).

Neo has sub-ftl (possibly ftl) capabilities... when he want's/needs to. He's like Superman in that regard, he only exerts what's necessary.

Originally posted by marwash22
Neo has sub-ftl capabilities... when he want's/needs to. He's like Superman in that regard, he only exerts what's necessary.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Proof?It took him a few seconds to fly across NYC(at least I think thats how far it was).And thats like his top flying feat.

skip to 1:20. looks like ftl (or damn close to it) to me.

Originally posted by marwash22
YouTube video

skip to 1:20. looks like ftl (or damn close to it) to me.

Originally posted by marwash22
YouTube video

skip to 1:20. looks like ftl (or damn close to it) to me.

Light can travel 6 times around the world in a second 😐

eh, I'll stick to my sub-ftl assertion.

Well, technically, Neo's flight speed can be whatever he wishes it to be given his powers, but he only showed an unspecified mach speed on two occasions (saving Morpheus/Keymaker and then saving Trinity). It could be argued that he was only shown flying that fast because that's how fast he need to be to save them. He's kinda like Gladiator in that regard. If he believes he can do something he can likely do it since he can willfully bend reality to his needs.

Another issue, though, is strength feats for Neo. We know he had a degree of super strength, but he had pedestrian strength feats. Other than his fights with Smith, what would his top strength feat be? Pulling that steel pole out of the concrete, or being strong enough to punch Smith through several yards of solid Earth? What strength class would Neo be in?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Well, technically, Neo's flight speed can be whatever he wishes it to be given his powers, but he only showed an unspecified mach speed on two occasions (saving Morpheus/Keymaker and then saving Trinity). It could be argued that he was only shown flying that fast because that's how fast he need to be to save them. He's kinda like Gladiator in that regard. If he believes he can do something he can likely do it since he can willfully bend reality to his needs.

Another issue, though, is strength feats for Neo. We know he had a degree of super strength, but he had pedestrian strength feats. Other than his fights with Smith, what would his top strength feat be? Pulling that steel pole out of the concrete, or being strong enough to punch Smith through several yards of solid Earth? What strength class would Neo be in?

I'd say class 15 max.