Originally posted by Borbarad
And you're trying to argue that the inferior force user and inferior saber combatant is going to win a lightsaber duel while trying to hand it out as fact that actual force mastery plays no role in lightsaber combat. Yet you do that while siting ambigious duels.
Anakin VS Dooku: We know that Anakin had the greater force potential and we know that (see Luke in DE or ROTJ) some parts of said potential can be spontaneously activated. Is RotJ Luke a saber god because he was able to overcome the far more experienced Vader with a anger-fueled assault ?
In the duel of Mace vs Sidious, going by the novel, it's said that Mace was just capable of disarming Sidious when the Sith Lord sacrificed some of the power he used to enchance his speed to maintain a better grip on the ground.
And Ulic VS Kun ? There was no winner in this fight. And you should think about the fact that Ulic, without access to the force, was still capable of withstanding the assaults of an enraged Jedi (Sylvar) so I don't think you can talk down the influence of force mastery on lightsaber duels using that instance because he managed to last 30 seconds (maybe) against Exar Kun (who wasn't even in his top shape there compared to his own self half a year later).
Wow. It's nice that you site the invention of the weapon but ignore the invention of the style. So I guess that Bruce Lee, while inventing Jeet Kun Do, had no idea about martial arts, correct ? You think there is a reason why Exar Kun is the first person in the SW universe (considering reallife time of the releases) that is shown to wield two blades at once and is the first to use a double-bladed lightsaber ? This aside from extremely uncommon blade movements he's performing in the comics (constant rotation of his lightsaber when wielded with one hand, constant switching of the blade hand). Obviously Kun is an extraordinary lightsaber combatant even when he still trains under Vodo.
I'd say the list of people which did completely tool several century old Jedi Masters that were listed as "experienced duellist" and are shown to train the students of other masters in lightsaber combat is rather short. And for Ulic: The list of people without force sensitivity capable of holding their own against enraged Jedi in straight forward melee combat is also pretty short. Ulic is capable of doing that. I guess he was on an entirely different level when he had his force control and fought in a more aggressive way.
Yet still Anakin didn't overcome Dooku with his superior bladework (get it into your head) but overpowered him physically which he can't do with Kun. Got that ? Or to explain it to you in detail:
a) You seem to estimate that Dooku is similar to Kun. Which isn't the case. Kun is a much more aggressive fighter (notice that Dooku's style is based on counter-attacking and rather defensive) and physically fitter (raw physical power) then Dooku. They simply aren't compareable.
b) You seem to estimate that Anakin defeated Dooku because he's the superior lightsaber duellist. Again this isn't the case. Dooku's bladework is still superior to that of Anakin seen when he still deflects Anakin's most powerful swings rather easily when Anakin is already utilizing the Dark Side. Anakin overpowered him physically by using a highly unconventional move. Once more: He wouldn't do that with Kun.
c) You seem to estimate that Vodo and Ulic both don't hold any water to Dooku. Once more: Vodo is a very experienced duellist and seems to be the TOTJ era Battlemaster while Ulic is also exceptionally gifted in terms of lightsaber ability proven by the fact that he could contend with an enraged Jedi after having been stripped from his force connection.
And I did side POD because it pretty clearly says that it's pretty hard to predict the movements of a double-blade. And it's nice how you ignore that Bane went through months of personal training with a master of that weapon before he was capable of anticipating it's movement. You might remind me where Anakin did the same, though.
Except Anakin didn't pwn Dooku. He defeated him, yes. But that wasn't "ownage" on any degree especially since we see Dooku outright flooring Anakin who was attacking him from behind before and still being capable to contend with a Dark Side using Anakin. The same Dark Side using Anakin that was not able to overpower Obi-Wan Kenobi with his bladework. And Kun toyed with Vodo which indicates an entirely different level of superiority in comperison to that what Anakin had over Dooku.
[quote]And so Anakin isn't a saber god. Bad news for you: Kun is.
THis must be more ridiculous fanboyism. What exactly makes Kun a saber god that wouldn't make Anakin? They're both prodigies, but neither are considered saber gods. Luke is a saber god. DE Sidious is a saber god, that's about it. Defeating Vodo doesn't make you a saber god, sorry Nai.
To elaborate further on that issue. He was clearly in a position to strike Sidious down as Sidious had his saber on his side low while Mace simply standing there ready to strike. He couldn't have disarmed Sidious from that position. The same thing basically happens again when Sidious goes down on his knees. Had Mace turned with his saber extended he would have lopped Sidious' head off.
Absolute bullshit, Nai. Your interpretations of the movie is as subject to bias as anyone else's; I could just as easily say that -- since Sidious had his lightsaber pointed directly at Windu's chest (with Windu's weapon out to the side) he could have just darted forward (since he is still faster than Mace at that point) and skewered him through the chest, but -- for some reason -- decided not too.
You'll need a bit more substance in your argument if you even want to dream about going down this route.
And no. Mace's objective was to capture Sidious alive as (you might have noticed that) there was already some propaganda tossed against the Jedi accusing them of wanting to take over the Republic. Simply imagine what would have happened if some Jedi had just killed the Supreme Chancellor. Notice how Mace, even after having disarmed the Sith Lord, still doesn't seem to be willing to kill him. He first comes up with that idea after Sidious attacked him with force lightning, eventually realizing that he can't capture Sidious alive.
...Did I contest that, Nai? No. You said that Mace let Sidious reevaluate his stance and defend himself [which is some of the finest bullshit I've ever read] which puts his entire objective into sheer jeopardy! What if Sidious had killed him? Then what? There's no Jedi on the planet who can contend with him, especially when he has the full military might of the clone army with him. Mace allowing Sidious to defend himself contradicts his entire effort to disarm and render the Sith Lord powerless, politically and otherwise.
Wow, Escape. Can it be that Sidious main office is actually bigger then the room where the fight started ? Yes ? Damn it.
Yet can it be that the long corridor with which they are entering is even smaller than the private office? Yes? Damn it.
Can it, therefor, be that Mace, utilizing wide swings in general, would find it easier to fight in the main office (that aside from not having to walk over the corpse of some of his former friends) ? Yes ? Damn it.
Yet -- therefore -- if that was his intention and he is, supposedly, vastly ahead of Sidious in lightsaber abilities, he could have forced Sidious on the defensive and still managed to make it into the main office, thus accomplishing his supposed goal of more space and then some? Yes? Damn it.
Did he? Nope.
So, who then, logically, had the advantage? Sidious? Catching on, I see. 😉
And my interpretation is contradicted by the events that take place. That's why Mace suddenly takes the initiative and drives Sidious back almost immediatly when they arrive in the second room (after the saber lock) ? Damn it.
Immediately? Nope. They fight on even terms for several seconds before Mace gains the upper hand, thus coinciding with the novel's interpretation.
Yes. And because of what factors ? His uber blade style or the fact that he actually possesses an extremly high force mastery which allows him to enchance his speed to a level that not many Jedi (or to be exact just Mace and Yoda) are capable of putting something up against ? Notice how the key factor, if you want to go by the novel, is Sidious speed. Once he slows down, Mace disarms him.
And this is within the context of a duel. Will Sidious's Force mastery be a large factor on how duels conclude? Yes? Damn it. Guess Sidious really is -- overall -- "an uber duelist". 🙂
You're still acting as if Mace and Kit kept raining down strikes on Sidious together - which didn't happen - and as if Mace was completely using all he could in that situation - which also didn't happen. And of course Mace can't pwn Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Why ? Because Sidious can enchant his natural abilities better because of superior force mastery. At least unless you want to tell me that Sidious sheer bladework rivals that of Mace Windu - after he didn't touch a lightsaber for roughly a decade. And that was the entire point in the actual discussion: That Exar Kun (if you grant him to be "head and shoulders above Anakin" in terms of force mastery) can boost his natural abilities more than Anakin can. So to state that Anakin would still defeat him in a lightsaber fight, you would have to estimate that Anakin's sheer bladework exceeds that of a guy who knows Anakin's style, uses a style unfamilar to Anakin and a unique weapon that Anakin is also not familiar with. Logic anybody ?
Jesus, Nai, am I arguing that Anakin would kick Kun's ass? No. Because you're right -- Kun is stronger than Dooku and wouldn't as easily fall susceptible. But, that said, you ought to read Advent's argument on the issue. She makes a very convincing argument.
Pardon me if I point out once more that I don't have to argue that point because it visibly happens on screen in the movie. Or does that belong into the "bad choreography" department once more ?
The. Entire. Duel. Is. A. Legendary. Example. Of. Terrible. Choreography. Ian. And. Samuel. Are. Old. Men. Which. Is. Why. They. Should. Not. Be. Even. Looking. At. A. Lightsaber. Prop. Notice. How. Much. Better. The. CGI. Duels. Are. Than. That. Piece. Of. Shit. We. Call. Mace. Versus. Sidious.
...And pardon me if I point out to you that you are not pointing out what happens on screen. You're attempting to justify the reason behind it, which was not shown on screen, ergo, it is only your interpretation, and a fallible one at that since you haven't even attempted to provide evidence.
Oh...the choreography is just bad when you want it to be ? Nice to know that, Escape.
The. Entire. Duel. Is. A. Legendary. Example. Of. Terrible. Choreography. Ian. And. Samuel. Are. Old. Men. Which. Is. Why. They. Should. Not. Be. Even. Looking. At. A. Lightsaber. Prop. Notice. How. Much. Better. The. CGI. Duels. Are. Than. That. Piece. Of. Shit. We. Call. Mace. Versus. Sidious.
Rofl. Just read that statement, Escape. Really.
I did. I was the one who wrote it. Jesus, Nai, Publius's documented accounts of Sidious's lightsaber skills prior to TPM make anything Mace has done look like a retarded four year old playing around with a glowstick. It's not a stretch to say that the guy -- while not in top form or better than Yoda or Windu -- is still good enough to keep up with the best.
Urm. No. I don't need to think about these things because they are exactly what I try to tell you the entire time while you seem to be unwilling to understand it. Because Sidious (like Yoda) can boost his speed and strength beyond almost anybody else, he can keep up and even defeat the people that can't do it to a similar degree. Regardless of their actual ability when it comes down to sheer bladework.
"I don't need to...", "I don't need to...", "I don't need to..." -- it's like the third time in this post you've said it. If you're not going to back your posts up, don't bother continuing this argument. Yoda, like Sidious, is shit when it comes to your definition of "pure lightsaber skills", then, Nai. One's a weakened and stressed 60-year-old man who is taxed by the dark side. The other is an eight century old alien with virtually no mobility outside of his ability to use the Force. Yet Yoda's heralded by multiple Jedi and Count Dooku as being a 'terrific duelist' and 'skilled with a lightsaber' -- yet we all know if you strip away his Force usage, my two-year-old nephew would beat the shit out of him. I don't know if you're arguing it, or if DS is, but Force strength and saber skills aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
So one could say that the three Jedi he killed are simply not able to anticipate his speed (which is what the novel says pretty much) but Mace is (which is why he stays alive) and once the speed advantage is removed, Sidious can't keep up with Mace when it comes down to sheer combat ability. Hence he's disarmed.
Again, I didn't argue with this.
He forces Sidious out of the room which in results in his fear making him drop his speed. That's - of course - the novel interpretation. Possibly Mace's action to destroy the window resulted in the same effect looking at the movie. Point is: Mace forced Sidious to drop his speed and then disarmed him.
You make it sound as if Mace's Vaapad forced Sidious's speed to turn sluggish; to elaborate clearer next time: he took over the direction of the fight. Because at that point, he was the superior combatant.
Yes, Escape. That was the entire point here. If somebody is above somebody else in terms of speed and strength (aka force powers) the opponent has to have the better bladework to defeat the better force user. Hence I said that Mace's skill with a blade is pretty much above that of Sidious and Sidious was capable of countering that by his superior force mastery.
Now this, I can agree with. But, like I said, it doesn't matter. Because, obviously, Mace is leagues above Yoda in pure lightsaber ability, as is Sidious, as is Dooku. Hell, one could argue Anakin and Obi-Wan are leagues above Mace, since, for all his strength, he's a fifty-something-year old man.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, you are CLAIMING that a superior force user would win a saber duel, and I'm simply refuting that.
No. You try to refute that by citing some duels that were one by highly unconventional movements and not by superior skill with a saber. Compare you two instance to the list of duels where the more powerful force user actually did win.
I have never written anything resembling an inferior force user AND saber combatatant would win, because that's just ridiculous. Furthermore, you are making the assertion that Anakin, or whoever you are mentioning, is the inferir saber combatant, in which case you have to prove it.
No. You are assuming that Anakin is somehow the superior duellist in comparison to Exar Kun because otherwise your assertion that he, despite having inferior force powers, would be able to defeat Kun doesn't make any sense. So proof it. And don't use the Anakin VS Dooku fight because that wasn't won with superior duelling skill.
No, he wasn't, but the ROTS novelization describes the Dooku vs. Anakin fight. Anakin was already a saber prodigy who was among the best of the order, and he finally was able to best Dooku in saber combat through skill and the immersion of the dark side.
Dude. He did not best Dooku in saber combat. Did you watch the movie ? He doesn't outduel hin but immobilizes Dooku's saber hand and then cuts his hands off.
We saw the same fight didn't we? Mace and Sidious fought to a stand still. Mace's vaapad and shatterpoint are what allowed him to get the victory, yet Sidious was the SUPERIOR force user.
So wow. Because Mace had Vaapad that countered the Dark Side of Sidious and because he had a unique ability he did win. Great. Again: Completely stupid example because Anakin has neither of those and Mace without those abilities, would have lost against Sidious.
Except you made the claim that a superior force user should win a saber fight, for whatever reason. Kun, being the superior force user, was unable to overcome an inferior force user.
The reason is that in most situations in the SW universe the superior force user does actually win. Hell...read TUF when Luke runs through the lines of the Yuuzhan Vong and notice what enables him to do so ? His pure bladework. Nope. His force control that turns him into a "maelstrom". Oh yes. That was the thing. Did you read POD ? Kas'im pretty much says that superior force mastery at a certain level turns every style and movement pattern somebody learned null and void.
You stated that Kun should get the victory because of force mastery, and invention of saber and style, while I'm saying it's possible but in no way guaranteed. Furthermore, NOTHING indicates that Kun invented Jar'Kai. Great, we saw a picture of him..This indicates that he created it?
Who said that he created it ? I was just saying that he's the first being in the SW universe wielding two lightsabers at the same time. I know that the style didn't originate from Exar Kun. Wonder why you don't know that. And I'm just questioning the entire time how you think Anakin would overcome Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel ? And I still don't have any answer to that question.
Oh wonderful, centuries old masters denote power now? Please quantify "experienced duelist", because aside from making his stick powerful, there's no indication that Vodo was a saber powerhouse.
Aside of training virtually everybody seen in the comics in lightsaber combat. Holy shit. No. They would chose a freaking idiot who can't think and talk at the same time to train the next generations of Jedi in lightsaber combat. Or would they chose one of their best ? I can't decide. Really. Shall we go with the idea that Vodo actually sucked in lightsaber combat. I wonder how this freaking people around in the KotoR time - which were most likely his former students - got their lightsaber skill from. Hell...technically every Jedi from the TOTJ time on should suck because Vodo, the nobody, trained most of them.
What exactly makes you think he can't do it to Kun? Especially since his own son was able to overpower a ROBOT (vader).
What kind of bullshit is that ? Anakin must be able to beat Kun because Luke was able to defeat Vader ? Holy shit.
Does this somehow make Kun the superior saber fighter between the two? I don't think so.
Yes. You don't think. Which is the entire problem here.
BEcause you're assuming Kun is physically superior to Anakin. Please provide proof.
He can punch his damn fingers through the skull of the Supreme Chancellor, then lift him up holding him like that with arm rather easily ? He is capable of forcing Sylvar (who was capable shattering a helmet and tool some Massassi with her physical abilities) on her knees by pushing her down with one hand ?
Vodo doesn't hold any water to Dooku. Ulic might.
And your proof for that assumption would be what exactly ?
You just pwned yourself here Nai. I guess you conveniently failed to remember when Kas'im said that "the double blade may seem more difficult to overcome, but it's all in your mind. In fact it's a lot easier, because you can anticipate the second blade's movement by watching the first".
ROFL. Is it "make up some quotes" day again ? Kas'im doesn't say that it's easier to overcome a double-blade in comparison to a lightsaber (which would make no sense at all). What he said is that here:
"In combat, your mind tries to keep track of each blade separately, effectively doubling the number of possibilities. But the two blades are connected: by knowing the location of one, you are automatically aware of the location of the other. In actual practice, the double-bladed lightsaber is more limited than the traditional lightsaber. It can do more damage, but it is less precise. It requires longer, sweeping movements that don't transition well into a quick stab or thrust. Because the weapon is difficult to master, however, few among the Jedi-or even the Sith-understand it. They don't know how to attack or defend effectively against it. That gives those of us who use it an advantage over most of our opponents."
The point here is that those limitations don't apply to Kun's lightsaber because he's capable of altering the blade intensity meaning he can utilize his double-blade like a regular lightsaber. Even if Anakin is capable to realize that he just has to follow one blade to know the location of the other (and he wouldn't be able to do so unless you present me proof he practiced against a double-blade on a regular basis), he wouldn't know jack shit about the other properties of Kun's weapon (altering blade intensity and blade length).
But nice that I owned myself.
This is a valid argument, if Vodo was even in Dooku's league.
And this would be a valid rebuttal if you had proof that he isn't.
THis must be more ridiculous fanboyism. What exactly makes Kun a saber god that wouldn't make Anakin? They're both prodigies, but neither are considered saber gods. Luke is a saber god. DE Sidious is a saber god, that's about it. Defeating Vodo doesn't make you a saber god, sorry Nai.
DE Sidious doesn't strikes me that great with a lightsaber actually.
And Kun ? He defeats his master in a duel when Vodo has obviously never been defeated before (hence he calls Kun his greatest student ever immediatly where we know that normally "only Sith deal in absolutes"😉. Then he redicously tools the same guy later (with new style and weapon). He "stalemates" Ulic in terms of bladework who, with his sheer blade ability and without force powers, was capable of holding his own against a enraged Jedi. Kun simply is the best duellist in his era and that's a position that Anakin can't claim.
@Escape:
And this is within the context of a duel. Will Sidious's Force mastery be a large factor on how duels conclude? Yes? Damn it. Guess Sidious really is -- overall -- "an uber duelist".
You realize that this single statement there makes your entire argument absurd, considering what we talked about in the first place, right ? 🙄
Originally posted by Borbarad
No. You try to refute that by citing some duels that were one by highly unconventional movements and not by superior skill with a saber. Compare you two instance to the list of duels where the more powerful force user actually did win.
No. You are assuming that Anakin is somehow the superior duellist in comparison to Exar Kun because otherwise your assertion that he, despite having inferior force powers, would be able to defeat Kun doesn't make any sense. So proof it. And don't use the Anakin VS Dooku fight because that wasn't won with superior duelling skill.
Dude. He did not best Dooku in saber combat. Did you watch the movie ? He doesn't outduel hin but immobilizes Dooku's saber hand and then cuts his hands off.
So wow. Because Mace had Vaapad that countered the Dark Side of Sidious and because he had a unique ability he did win. Great. Again: Completely stupid example because Anakin has neither of those and Mace without those abilities, would have lost against Sidious.
The reason is that in most situations in the SW universe the superior force user does actually win. Hell...read TUF when Luke runs through the lines of the Yuuzhan Vong and notice what enables him to do so ? His pure bladework. Nope. His force control that turns him into a "maelstrom". Oh yes. That was the thing. Did you read POD ? Kas'im pretty much says that superior force mastery at a certain level turns every style and movement pattern somebody learned null and void.
However... Page 150. "Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the force". I guess that pretty much destroys your argument.
Who said that he created it ? I was just saying that he's the first being in the SW universe wielding two lightsabers at the same time. I know that the style didn't originate from Exar Kun. Wonder why you don't know that. And I'm just questioning the entire time how you think Anakin would overcome Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel ? And I still don't have any answer to that question.
Aside of training virtually everybody seen in the comics in lightsaber combat. Holy shit. No. They would chose a freaking idiot who can't think and talk at the same time to train the next generations of Jedi in lightsaber combat. Or would they chose one of their best ? I can't decide. Really. Shall we go with the idea that Vodo actually sucked in lightsaber combat. I wonder how this freaking people around in the KotoR time - which were most likely his former students - got their lightsaber skill from. Hell...technically every Jedi from the TOTJ time on should suck because Vodo, the nobody, trained most of them.
What kind of bullshit is that ? Anakin must be able to beat Kun because Luke was able to defeat Vader ? Holy shit.
Yes. You don't think. Which is the entire problem here.
He can punch his damn fingers through the skull of the Supreme Chancellor, then lift him up holding him like that with arm rather easily ? He is capable of forcing Sylvar (who was capable shattering a helmet and tool some Massassi with her physical abilities) on her knees by pushing her down with one hand ?
And this would be a valid rebuttal if you had proof that he isn't.
DE Sidious doesn't strikes me that great with a lightsaber actually.
And Kun ? He defeats his master in a duel when Vodo has obviously never been defeated before (hence he calls Kun his greatest student ever immediatly where we know that normally "only Sith deal in absolutes"😉. Then he redicously tools the same guy later (with new style and weapon). He "stalemates" Ulic in terms of bladework who, with his sheer blade ability and without force powers, was capable of holding his own against a enraged Jedi. Kun simply is the best duellist in his era and that's a position that Anakin can't claim.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, I cite duels where the superior force user did NOT win. I don't know why you keep arguing.
I keep arguing because that duels are exception to the rules where the prior advantage in terms of force mastery was negated. Anakin vs Dooku receives a power boost by allowing himself to utilize his dark emotions (similar to Luke in RotJ) that makes him more powerful for a short amount of time in which he's capable of surprising Dooku with a highly unorthodox movement. His average skill-level in terms of force control and bladework is still below that of Dooku even when he enters "the zone".
And in the fight between Mace versus Sidious, Mace did benefit from the fact that he possessed a very rare ability that is especially useful against Dark Siders (his Vaapad mindset) and a completely unique ability (his Shatterpoint ability) which he both needed to defeat Sidious.
So you are still arguing based on exceptions rather then the rule. In general the more powerful force user will be the one that walks out alive of a lightsaber duel.
Are we back on the subject that having superior force powers guarantees a lightsaber victory? Are you purposely ignoring proof that it isn't? I'm not out to prove that Anakin won(he won the saber duel despite you calling him lucky or unconventional). I'm out to prove that the superior force user is in no way guaranteed to win a saber duel, which I have.
No. If you add highly unlikely conditions to a fight, then the better force user might lose. Still we don't play the "assume that one opponent has his lucky day" game here.
Did he do this with a magic spell? I recall seeing him do this with a saber.
Anakin's hand is a lightsaber ? Nice to know that.
Yet more ridiculous and unsubstantiated, yet biased assumptions. Without Vaapad and Shatterpoint, Mace and Sidious were EQUALS. There is NOTHING to suggest otherwise. In fact their fight proves EXACTLY this, until Mace immerses himself in Vaapad and finds Sidious' shatterpoint. This is just ridiculous logic on your part Nai.
Can you read, DS ? Somehow I doubt it. With his Vaapad abilities used to the fullest extend (at least if you want to go by the novel) Mace and Sidious were equals. The Shatterpoint ability was that tipped the balance in favor for Mace. Without both abilities, Mace would have lost against Sidious.
However... Page 150. "Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the force". I guess that pretty much destroys your argument.
No. That just brings up the question again why you think that Anakin is better trained in lightsaber combat than Exar Kun because there is nothing to base that assumption on.
Because in teh z0ne Anakin was able to overcome Dooku. Are you going to claim now that Exar Kun>Dooku in saber combat? If so, make another thread.
And in "teh z0ne" Anakin was not able to overcome Obi-Wan. Are you going to claim now that Obi-Wan > Dooku and Exar Kun in saber combat ? If so, make another thread.
But just for your information. We had some nice debates here regarding Dooku's abilities and if I remember correctly he was sorted to one level with people like Malak and Ulic at that time. So I guess Kun is superior to him in saber combat not to mention that he's definetely superior to Dooku when it comes to force abilities and raw physical shape.
We don't have to go by the idea that Vodo sucked, but nothing even comes close to making him seem like a saber powerhouse, so it would be up to you to prove it.
Really. The omniscient narrator claims that Vodo is an "experienced duellist" which means that he, obviously, had some experience real duels otherwise that statement wouldn't make much sense. We see that he's capable of defeating Kun in their first engagement by finding the balance point of his apprentice and simply sent him flying - and this against the same Kun he noted to be the most formidable student he ever had. And there is the fact that he trained all Jedi in lightsaber combat on Ossus.
Does that make him a saber powerhouse ? No, because we don't see him fight with a lightsaber really. Does it make him a being that is quite skilled in the art of combat, in fact more skilled than most if not any other Jedi Master in his own era going by the fact that they take their students to him to be trained in that department ? Quite likely. So what do you think how good somebody must be to toy with such an individual and leave it without the slightest chance to win ?
No, but like Anakin, Luke was powerful enough to beat down on a robotic Vader. I'll get you some sources from lightsnake that show Anakin's physical abilities.
a) I agree with Faunus here.
b) Having to ask Lightsnake for some sources says a lot about your ability to debate SW related topics.
Oh yes, after typing out a bunch of biased, illogical assertions, I doubt you're any kind of authority on "thinking".
In comparison to you a dead starfish is an authority when it comes to logical reasoning.
Through the skull? Gee Nai you must have missed the amulet glowing when he digged his fingers INTO the Chancellor. Yea, that was KUN's physical strength alright.
No. It was the glowing of his amulet that did put the fingers through the Chancellors skull. Oh wait. Kun always wears this amulet so it doesn't matter if that action was aided by his force abilities (and I'd say the amulet was glowing because he used some sort of mind-control on the Chancellor).
I don't have to prove the negative here Nai.
No, of course. I know that logical reasoning isn't your cup of tea. We could continue the debate on your level. For that we just need to repeat the line: "No you're wrong because I'm correct" as long as one of us succumbs to inevitable boredom.
I'm glad DE Sidious doesn't strike you as ...... His incredible speed and skill killed stormtroopers that were around him.
ROFL, DS. So his force mastery which doesn't influence lightsaber abilities is what makes him an uber duellist. Nice way to turn your entire argument into absurd babble by stating yourself what you wanted to question the entire time. WTF ?
I'd say at the very least, he is second to Luke in saber combat. Anakin can't claim the position because:
A. He's what, 22?
B. You have Mace, Yoda, and Sidious, who would all give Kun a difficult time, if not beat him.
Can somebody translate this for me ? You might want to get your own thoughts straight before trying to debate, DS.
Oops, Luke thing wasn't even supposed to be in there, it was a mere thought. My point was that Anakin possesses great physical strength and that I needed to get sources from lightsnake showing his various feats.
And that must be the most stupid thing I've read from you so far. So you don't know how strong Anakin is because you don't know any feat that speaks for his physical strenght. Yet you still argue that he must be stronger than Kun ? 🙄
Dude. He did not best Dooku in saber combat. Did you watch the movie ? He doesn't outduel hin but immobilizes Dooku's saber hand and then cuts his hands off.
The reason is that in most situations in the SW universe the superior force user does actually win. Hell...read TUF when Luke runs through the lines of the Yuuzhan Vong and notice what enables him to do so ? His pure bladework. Nope. His force control that turns him into a "maelstrom". Oh yes. That was the thing. Did you read POD ? Kas'im pretty much says that superior force mastery at a certain level turns every style and movement pattern somebody learned null and void.
Who said that he created it ? I was just saying that he's the first being in the SW universe wielding two lightsabers at the same time. I know that the style didn't originate from Exar Kun. Wonder why you don't know that. And I'm just questioning the entire time how you think Anakin would overcome Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel ? And I still don't have any answer to that question.
Aside of training virtually everybody seen in the comics in lightsaber combat. Holy shit. No. They would chose a freaking idiot who can't think and talk at the same time to train the next generations of Jedi in lightsaber combat. Or would they chose one of their best ? I can't decide. Really. Shall we go with the idea that Vodo actually sucked in lightsaber combat. I wonder how this freaking people around in the KotoR time - which were most likely his former students - got their lightsaber skill from. Hell...technically every Jedi from the TOTJ time on should suck because Vodo, the nobody, trained most of them.
He can punch his damn fingers through the skull of the Supreme Chancellor, then lift him up holding him like that with arm rather easily ? He is capable of forcing Sylvar (who was capable shattering a helmet and tool some Massassi with her physical abilities) on her knees by pushing her down with one hand ?
The point here is that those limitations don't apply to Kun's lightsaber because he's capable of altering the blade intensity meaning he can utilize his double-blade like a regular lightsaber. Even if Anakin is capable to realize that he just has to follow one blade to know the location of the other (and he wouldn't be able to do so unless you present me proof he practiced against a double-blade on a regular basis), he wouldn't know jack shit about the other properties of Kun's weapon (altering blade intensity and blade length).But nice that I owned myself.
And this would be a valid rebuttal if you had proof that he isn't.
DE Sidious doesn't strikes me that great with a lightsaber actually.
And Kun ? He defeats his master in a duel when Vodo has obviously never been defeated before (hence he calls Kun his greatest student ever immediatly where we know that normally "only Sith deal in absolutes"😉.
Then he redicously tools the same guy later (with new style and weapon). He "stalemates" Ulic in terms of bladework who, with his sheer blade ability and without force powers, was capable of holding his own against a enraged Jedi. Kun simply is the best duellist in his era and that's a position that Anakin can't claim.
Moreover, Ulic did nothing more than fend off a berserker nowhere near in control of her mind-impressive? Yes. claim to fame? No. The Ulic of years before was a different man when he fought Kun. If Ulic had continued to fight Sylvar, you think he would've walked away? He was fully prepared to die when she attacked him at the end. I doubt he wanted to, but he was prepared to.
No, Anakin can't claim that he's the best duelist of his era. But then, unlike Kun's era, his era has a large abundance of exceptional duelists: Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, Dooku, Maul, Depa, Anoon, Cin, among others. Would an argument to disprove Kun against Mace in sheer bladework be in effect because Mace is second to Yoda of his era? Or would Ulic be considered the superior as he's the second best of his era, while Dooku occupies a rung several spaces below that?
It's not a good way to decide this.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
After driving Dooku back, using his form which specializes in brutal swings and attacks. You think of Anakin was losing, he'd be able to reach out and grab Dooku? If Dooku had the upper hand would Anakin be capable of it?
No. I think that his form utilizing brutal swings and attacks didn't help him much against Dooku when he was fighting the Sith Lord before utilizing his darker emotions. The key to victory obviously lies in Anakin's force potential and not in his bladework. Which is pretty much contradicting to the point that DS tries to make here.
He does sort of disprove this later on himself when he assaults Bane with Jar'Kai
Because he uses a fighting style that Bane is completely unfamiliar with and therefore not able to anticipate is. That is exactly the same what would happen to Anakin when engaging Kun in a lightsaber duel.
I'm going to ask again: Where is Kun shown practicing Jar'Kai on a regular basis?
I just said it seems so because he kept running around with two lightsabers on his belt which is something that a normal Jedi wouldn't do.
Virtually 'everyone?' He trains a select group of young knights and is apparently extremely close with the masters who send their pupils over. Ood Bnar's pupils sure didn't train with Vodo, since he taught them about saber combat himself...
Where ? Aside of that: The same Ood Bnar that says to Kun that combat is not his skill ? Thon also talks about lightsaber combat with Nomi yet he still ships her to Vodo for the actual instruction.
And where do you draw the conclusion so many people in KOTOR were Vodo's former students? Precisely one is known as such: Krynda Draay. Many others would be:
A. Not born yet
B. Padawans at the time of the Great Sith War
I'm not doubting more than a few were Vodo's padawans or students at some point of anything....but 'trained most of them?'
A) As it seems all people in the series have been to Ossus as nobody is shown wondering himself when visiting the place with the exception of Nomi Sunrider. So I guess they all received some training there.
B) At least the people not shown to have other masters and are trained "off planet" would most likely be trained by Vodo. Notice that Ossus was the main training facility of the Jedi Order before it's destruction.
C) Going by A+B there must be a fair share of people around that received lightsaber training from Vodo, even in Revan's time if they were old enough. Atris and Vrook would be definite possibilities.
He can out muscle Sylvar in a sparring match, yes. He shoves her back viciously under her chin and raises his saber before she can recover, yes. Anakin is quite capable of immobilizing Dooku, who is able to send much younger and healthier men flying backwards with a mere kick, parrying a monster like Grievous's blows without even a sign of exhaustion and toy around with Ventress, who isn't a featherweight physically.
Dooku's ability to kick people has something to do with his hands ? And notice how Dooku parries blows. I doubt that he needs much strength for that. He's a fencer...
And also, Nai...look at their chancellor: He's a cephalapoid...have you ever held one? They don't have bones or many structures others would...they're skin is soft and rubbery....this isn't a feat for average Joe Bob, but it does NOT prove Kun's physical superiority
No. I surely never held some alien. He has no bones ? Sorry LS. If that was true he wouldn't look like he does. He either needs an exosceleton or bones.
Considering the Halcyons are fully capable of doing things like that, so?
Altering 'intensity' means little, unless Anakin's skin can repel sabers at lower intensities-and I don't think they'll be using the training settings- nor will blade length be much an issue, unless Anakin falls for the same trick that killed one of the Domain Shai warriors (And Corran Horn even says that trick won't work on a more experience warrior)
Huh ?
The point about altering the intensity, Lightsnake, is that Kun can turn his lightsaber blade into an intangible lightbeam. This allows him to utilize the weapon without limitations of a regular double-bladed lightsaber and I guess it would cause some confusion confronting an enemy that can switch the intensity of his weapon like that considering one would expect to hit the opponents blade with your his own instead of "cutting" right through it.
He's described as a master of all the saber's forms and styles, his bladework is described as 'flawless', he's able to move incredible fast, toy with Luke Skywalker (Just read the narration of Luke in issue 1...his skill with a saber is held to be even greater than his skills with the Force and considering he's able to destroy an army of advanced battle droids with a series of gestures and bring down an AT AT? That's pretty damn formidable)
I was merely remarking upon the fact that his skill in lightsaber combat is mainly fueled by his vast force abilities.
Where are you POSSIBLY drawing that Vodo was never defeated before?
and if this is a reference to their first fight, being put on one's rear end and making a sudden comeback doesn't count as 'effortless.'
From the fact that Vodo immediatly states that Kun is his greatest student ever once Kun defeated him in combat. I meant that he was never defeated by one of his former students, obviously.
And no. This was a reference to their second confrontation where Kun toyed with Vodo and tooled him.
Let's start by defining 'era,' to be precise. does it extend to Revan's time?
Does that matter ? Kreia pretty much thinks that any ancient Sith Master would run through every being in the KotoR time rather easily. The Ancients considered Kun to be their ultimate successor. I doubt that somebody from the KotoR era can beat Kun in a lightsaber duel.
Moreover, Ulic did nothing more than fend off a berserker nowhere near in control of her mind-impressive? Yes. claim to fame? No. The Ulic of years before was a different man when he fought Kun. If Ulic had continued to fight Sylvar, you think he would've walked away? He was fully prepared to die when she attacked him at the end. I doubt he wanted to, but he was prepared to.
Fending of a mindless berserker ? Thrusting your interpretation that is what Obi-Wan did with Anakin at the end of RotS. The point is that in all instances we see the Dark Side making people stronger in actual confrontation, Sylvar was nothing to scoff at before - yet Ulic, which doesn't have any force connection, is still able to keep up with her in melee combat ? How many people have you seen in the SW universe that are capable of holding their own against a Jedi in straight forward melee combat without utilizing some dirty tricks (Jango Fett at Galidraan) or utilizing the enviroment in some spectacular ways ?
No, Anakin can't claim that he's the best duelist of his era. But then, unlike Kun's era, his era has a large abundance of exceptional duelists: Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, Dooku, Maul, Depa, Anoon, Cin, among others. Would an argument to disprove Kun against Mace in sheer bladework be in effect because Mace is second to Yoda of his era? Or would Ulic be considered the superior as he's the second best of his era, while Dooku occupies a rung several spaces below that?It's not a good way to decide this.
Do you really want to assume that all rather gifted lightsaber combatants popped up in just the PT era and only there ? Or is it more logical to assume that every era had at least some duellist that would be on the same level (in general terms) than those PT people ? The point is that the people of the PT era have more sources that actually make them lightsaber prodigies but I doubt that the average skill increased so much over time (especially when their was no need for actual lightsaber to lightsaber combat), that all "uber duellists" are born in the PT era - even if that is the "golden age of the Jedi".
I just want to insert a quick point here. In reference to the Sith Meditation sphere Alema is using as a ship in the later Legacy books (pg. 65) "It had served Master's more powerful than she could imagine." Who is this in reference too? Most likely the Ancient Sith, perhaps Naga Sadow himself. Now, we can't assume that it has any knowledge of how powerful Sidious was, but we know for certain that it had at the very least encountered Lumiya, Alema, and Jacen and felt (keep in mind that it is a machine so it's memory would not be distorted by legend as it was actually there serving them) that the Ancient's were much stronger than all of them. I find this very compelling evidence to the Antediluvian mindset in reguard to the Ancient Sith; basically over-ruling the statements of most users here today.
Originally posted by Borbarad
No. I think that his form utilizing brutal swings and attacks didn't help him much against Dooku when he was fighting the Sith Lord before utilizing his darker emotions. The key to victory obviously lies in Anakin's force potential and [b]not in his bladework. Which is pretty much contradicting to the point that DS tries to make here.
Because he uses a fighting style that Bane is completely unfamiliar with and therefore not able to anticipate is. That is exactly the same what would happen to Anakin when engaging Kun in a lightsaber duel.
I just said it seems so because he kept running around with two lightsabers on his belt which is something that a normal Jedi wouldn't do.
Where ? Aside of that: The same Ood Bnar that says to Kun that combat is not his skill ? Thon also talks about lightsaber combat with Nomi yet he still ships her to Vodo for the actual instruction.
A) As it seems all people in the series have been to Ossus as nobody is shown wondering himself when visiting the place with the exception of Nomi Sunrider. So I guess they all received some training there.
B) At least the people not shown to have other masters and are trained "off planet" would most likely be trained by Vodo. Notice that Ossus was the main training facility of the Jedi Order before it's destruction.
C) Going by A+B there must be a fair share of people around that received lightsaber training from Vodo, even in Revan's time if they were old enough. Atris and Vrook would be definite possibilities.
...and Atris? Atris looks in her 30s-40s. Tops. Having white hair nonwithstanding, she appears young....young enough to be a contemporary of and care about The Exile.
Dooku's ability to kick people has something to do with his hands ? And notice how Dooku parries blows. I doubt that he needs much strength for that. He's a fencer...
No. I surely never held some alien. He has no bones ? Sorry LS. If that was true he wouldn't look like he does. He either needs an exosceleton or bones.
Huh ?
The point about altering the intensity, Lightsnake, is that Kun can turn his lightsaber blade into an intangible lightbeam. This allows him to utilize the weapon without limitations of a regular double-bladed lightsaber and I guess it would cause some confusion confronting an enemy that can switch the intensity of his weapon like that considering one would expect to hit the opponents blade with your his own instead of "cutting" right through it.
I was merely remarking upon the fact that his skill in lightsaber combat is mainly fueled by his vast force abilities.
From the fact that Vodo immediatly states that Kun is his greatest student ever once Kun defeated him in combat. I meant that he was never defeated by one of his former students, obviously.
And no. This was a reference to their second confrontation where Kun toyed with Vodo and tooled him.
Does that matter ? Kreia pretty much thinks that any ancient Sith Master would run through every being in the KotoR time rather easily. The Ancients considered Kun to be their ultimate successor. I doubt that somebody from the KotoR era can beat Kun in a lightsaber duel.
Fending of a mindless berserker ? Thrusting your interpretation that is what Obi-Wan did with Anakin at the end of RotS. The point is that in all instances we see the Dark Side making people stronger in actual confrontation, Sylvar was nothing to scoff at before - yet Ulic, which doesn't have any force connection, is still able to keep up with her in melee combat ? How many people have you seen in the SW universe that are capable of holding their own against a Jedi in straight forward melee combat without utilizing some dirty tricks (Jango Fett at Galidraan) or utilizing the enviroment in some spectacular ways ?
Do you really want to assume that all rather gifted lightsaber combatants popped up in just the PT era and only there ?
Or is it more logical to assume that every era had at least some duellist that would be on the same level (in general terms) than those PT people ? The point is that the people of the PT era have more sources that actually make them lightsaber prodigies but I doubt that the average skill increased so much over time (especially when their was no need for actual lightsaber to lightsaber combat), that all "uber duellists" are born in the PT era - even if that is the "golden age of the Jedi". [/B]
Saber masters of the KOTOR eras would include: Exar, Ulic, presumably Vodo, Revan, Kavar, Malak
Of the PT era: Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, Dooku, Maul, Anoon, Cin, Anakin off the top of my head.
Now, let's say for the sake of argument Mace is the second best duelist of PT...Is he incapable of beating Exar because he's not the master of his era and Exar's the master of his own?
That's the point I'm trying to make...I find great flaws in that argument. Yes, it's logical to assume they're 'on par', but writing someone off like that seems folly
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I just want to insert a quick point here. In reference to the Sith Meditation sphere Alema is using as a ship in the later Legacy books (pg. 65) "It had served Master's more powerful than she could imagine." Who is this in reference too? Most likely the Ancient Sith, perhaps Naga Sadow himself. Now, we can't assume that it has any knowledge of how powerful Sidious was, but we know for certain that it had at the very least encountered Lumiya, Alema, and Jacen and felt (keep in mind that it is a machine so it's memory would not be distorted by legend as it was actually there serving them) that the Ancient's were much stronger than all of them. I find this very compelling evidence to the Antediluvian mindset in reguard to the Ancient Sith; basically over-ruling the statements of most users here today.
Oh, and the idiot bugslut's 'imagination' being your measuring stick? Using someone who's mentally ill?
Come on now, Glentract, you can do better than that. The Ancients stronger than Jacen? Who can go toe to toe with LUKE? Please...no, Glen, you're just desperate to accept any scrap of info to return to the old ways...even if it's a comparative weakling who can't fight off Jagged Fel's warped mind.
Oh, and it served Naga Sadow? Yeah, right. His meditation sphere was incinerated, remember?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
When did Jacen meet the blasted sphere? When did it serve him?Oh, and the idiot bugslut's 'imagination' being your measuring stick? Using someone who's mentally ill?
Come on now, Glentract, you can do better than that. The Ancients stronger than Jacen? Who can go toe to toe with LUKE? Please...no, Glen, you're just desperate to accept any scrap of info to return to the old ways...even if it's a comparative weakling who can't fight off Jagged Fel's warped mind.
Oh, and it served Naga Sadow? Yeah, right. His meditation sphere was incinerated, remember?
1. It serving Naga was just a guess from the top of my head. I'm at an off-block at school, so I didn't really put too much thought into it. It's even more curious then that the ship may have felt a Sith lesser than Naga more powerful than he had met in Alema's time.
2. Ben brought the sphere to Jacen and Jacen later gave it to Lumiya. I forgot Naga's sphere was incinerated, so I won't rub it in your face that you forgot her if you don't rub that in mine.
3. I made it rather clear in my post that the sphere had never met anyone such as Sidious (and Luke is above Sidious) so it couldn't know how powerful they are. However, it did know about Jacen (who turns out to be even less powerful than thought perviously as his flow-walking technique is kept from causing major space-time changes by the Force itself). Jacen can't go toe-to-toe with Luke. If Luke was going anywhere near his best I'm very confident that he would obliterate Jacen.
4. The "idiot bugslut's" imagination is not my measuring stick. What the ship believes is. The ship met Jacen and Lumiya, so it obviously would consider them within Alema's level of imagination.
5. Really, all I'm saying is that this further's the school of thought that they're way up there, even though they are not the strongest ever to have lived.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
1. It serving Naga was just a guess from the top of my head. I'm at an off-block at school, so I didn't really put too much thought into it. It's even more curious then that the ship may have felt a Sith lesser than Naga more powerful than he had met in Alema's time.
And again: the ship's age is unknown. For all you know, it belonged to Tulak and Ragnos.
2. Ben brought the sphere to Jacen and Jacen later gave it to Lumiya. I forgot Naga's sphere was incinerated, so I won't rub it in your face that you forgot her if you don't rub that in mine.
3. I made it rather clear in my post that the sphere had never met anyone such as Sidious (and Luke is above Sidious) so it couldn't know how powerful they are. However, it did know about Jacen (who turns out to be even less powerful than thought perviously as his flow-walking technique is kept from causing major space-time changes by the Force itself). Jacen can't go toe-to-toe with Luke. If Luke was going anywhere near his best I'm very confident that he would obliterate Jacen.
4. The "idiot bugslut's" imagination is not my measuring stick. What the ship believes is. The ship met Jacen and Lumiya, so it obviously would consider them within Alema's level of imagination.
5. Really, all I'm saying is that this further's the school of thought that they're way up there, even though they are not the strongest ever to have lived.
Originally posted by Borbarad
No. I think that his form utilizing brutal swings and attacks didn't help him much against Dooku when he was fighting the Sith Lord before utilizing his darker emotions. The key to victory obviously lies in Anakin's force potential and not in his bladework. Which is pretty much contradicting to the point that DS tries to make here.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Because he uses a fighting style that Bane is completely unfamiliar with and therefore not able to anticipate is. That is exactly the same what would happen to Anakin when engaging Kun in a lightsaber duel.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I just said it seems so because he kept running around with two lightsabers on his belt which is something that a normal Jedi wouldn't do.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Where ? Aside of that: The same Ood Bnar that says to Kun that combat is not his skill ? Thon also talks about lightsaber combat with Nomi yet he still ships her to Vodo for the actual instruction.
Originally posted by Borbarad
A) As it seems all people in the series have been to Ossus as nobody is shown wondering himself when visiting the place with the exception of Nomi Sunrider. So I guess they all received some training there.B) At least the people not shown to have other masters and are trained "off planet" would most likely be trained by Vodo. Notice that Ossus was the main training facility of the Jedi Order before it's destruction.
C) Going by A+B there must be a fair share of people around that received lightsaber training from Vodo, even in Revan's time if they were old enough. Atris and Vrook would be definite possibilities.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku's ability to kick people has something to do with his hands ? And notice how Dooku parries blows. I doubt that he needs much strength for that. He's a fencer...
Originally posted by Borbarad
Huh ?
The point about altering the intensity, Lightsnake, is that Kun can turn his lightsaber blade into an intangible lightbeam. This allows him to utilize the weapon without limitations of a regular double-bladed lightsaber and I guess it would cause some confusion confronting an enemy that can switch the intensity of his weapon like that considering one would expect to hit the opponents blade with your his own instead of "cutting" right through it.
Originally posted by Borbarad
From the fact that Vodo immediatly states that Kun is his greatest student ever once Kun defeated him in combat. I meant that he was never defeated by one of his former students, obviously.
And no. This was a reference to their second confrontation where Kun toyed with Vodo and tooled him.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Does that matter ? Kreia pretty much thinks that any ancient Sith Master would run through every being in the KotoR time rather easily. The Ancients considered Kun to be their ultimate successor. I doubt that somebody from the KotoR era can beat Kun in a lightsaber duel.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Fending of a mindless berserker ? Thrusting your interpretation that is what Obi-Wan did with Anakin at the end of RotS. The point is that in all instances we see the Dark Side making people stronger in actual confrontation, Sylvar was nothing to scoff at before - yet Ulic, which doesn't have any force connection, is still able to keep up with her in melee combat ? How many people have you seen in the SW universe that are capable of holding their own against a Jedi in straight forward melee combat without utilizing some dirty tricks (Jango Fett at Galidraan) or utilizing the enviroment in some spectacular ways ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Do you really want to assume that all rather gifted lightsaber combatants popped up in just the PT era and only there ? Or is it more logical to assume that every era had at least some duellist that would be on the same level (in general terms) than those PT people ? The point is that the people of the PT era have more sources that actually make them lightsaber prodigies but I doubt that the average skill increased so much over time (especially when their was no need for actual lightsaber to lightsaber combat), that all "uber duellists" are born in the PT era - even if that is the "golden age of the Jedi".
"It had served Master's more powerful than she could imagine." Who is this in reference too? Most likely the Ancient Sith, perhaps Naga Sadow himself. Now, we can't assume that it has any knowledge of how powerful Sidious was, but we know for certain that it had at the very least encountered Lumiya, Alema, and Jacen and felt (keep in mind that it is a machine so it's memory would not be distorted by legend as it was actually there serving them) that the Ancient's were much stronger than all of them.