Let's solve the AIDs pandemic in Africa

Originally posted by dadudemon
Quoted for undeniable, ridiculously good truth. I have been saying this shit for years and until the world understands this...their situations cannot improve at a "favorable rate". This is why I love you, Bardock42.

People have to evolve for themselves to a point of stability. Even the frickin' US of A had to kill millions of their own people in a "Civil War" to reach their "happy place".

This is similar to my idea on a solution. Provide the jobs, encourage entrepreneurship, and you plant the seeds of self sustained prosperity.

Also, all of you should realize that we are basing our idea of a "good society" off of our own societal norms. An industrialized and successful country may not necessarily be what the most of the people want. Even then, who are we to say that they deserve what "most of the people" want? Is it our place to decided another country's political institutions? Is that even morally right? The answer to those questions borders on theology, imo.

So my conclusion from this debate is: Let everyone live the best way possible, as long as they do their part aswell.

Originally posted by Bardock42
O-or the other way around. Considered that?

Yes, until I realized I was actually right.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The robber. He stole the persons belonging. He took something he did not deserve. The woman did nothing wrong at all.

Yet, both lead to the same results...the beggar has nothing and will starve that day. In essence, they both did the same thing, because both thier actions lead to the same result.

Originally posted by lord xyz
If you didn't post this, I would've. Yes, we shouldn't give money to those who don't deserve it, hence the working thing, but when you have a choice between helping someone and letting them die, you help them. It makes society stronger. Having that said, there's people who don't deserve and people who do. Giving it to everyone is stupid, giving it to no one is also stupid.

So my conclusion from this debate is: Let everyone live the best way possible, as long as they do their part aswell.

For once I actually agree with you.

If you have the power to stop something evil from continuing, you should. To let someone die when you could save thier life is just as bad as killing them yourself.

Originally posted by Saxondale
I've been watching KMC GDF for sometime. I have been truly impressed by the high level debating that goes on here. So many truly intelligent people. I think you should put these skills to good use. I truly believe the great minds here capable of solving world issues (at least online). Let's start with the African AIDs pandemic. Please put your minds to this. How can we solve it?

Originally posted by Kelly_Bean
It's like cancer: NO.

Cancer has been cured by many people. People, with the help of doctors, right habits, and even meditation have cured thier own cancers.

There are even reports from different parts of the world of people surviving and living past HIV.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Yes, until I realized I was actually right.

Yet, both lead to the same results...the beggar has nothing and will starve that day. In essence, they both did the same thing, because both thier actions lead to the same result.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
For once I actually agree with you.

If you have the power to stop something evil from continuing, you should. To let someone die when you could save thier life is just as bad as killing them yourself.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Consider this, if the woman gave the beggar money, (which he didn't deserve,) he would die the next day because she can only give him the 5 dollars once. The robber however is way worse. Not because his action lead to the beggars death, but he might not need it aswell. Forget the beggar and think about the actions themselves. I understand your point, it's just your analogy.

His death would not have been her fault though. She gave him something to help him survive. What he does with the money is his choice. And it's not about the beggar "deserving" the money. If someone falls down the stairs and breaks thier arm, should I not call the Ambulence because he or she didn't earn my help ? Is there something a person has to do to deserve help ?

I think that's rediculous.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Ermm, my point isn't just that. I'm glad you agree with me. This isn't the first time you've agreed with me either.

Well, for the most part, I think you were right.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Cancer has been cured by many people. People, with the help of doctors, right habits, and even meditation have cured thier own cancers.

There are even reports from different parts of the world of people surviving and living past HIV.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
His death would not have been her fault though. She gave him something to help him survive. What he does with the money is his choice. And it's not about the beggar "deserving" the money. If someone falls down the stairs and breaks thier arm, should I not call the Ambulence because he or she didn't earn my help ? Is there something a person has to do to deserve help ?

I think that's rediculous.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Well, for the most part, I think you were right.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh, my bad, I will explain it more thoroughly to you:

Infringing on ones freedom is wrong, but allowing poverty to continue isn't.

How ?

If the State forbids me from marrying another man, I'll still be healthy. I'll still have my house, my money, food, and the man I love. I might be upset and feel oppressed, but I'll still have everything else I need to live and be happy.

If I'm poor, and the State does nothing to help me, not only will I not be married, I'll also have no money, no food, and probably die shortly.

Living in Poverty seems far worse to me than not being able to do certain things.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah it is.

How so ? If I help find a cure for someone's deadly illness and help them out of poverty, then I'm rewarding and spoiling them ? 😬

Isn't that just the right thing to do since they are, after all, human like myself ? I'd want the same done If I were in thier situation.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nothing really. Maybe the earned respect of the individual that wants to help. I am not against individual help at all. What I am against is the notion that we "should" help.

I think you are misintepretting me.

I am not saying that you are obliged to do it, and should be punished for not doing so.

What I am trying to tell you is that I find your stance hypocritical.

And the reason is this: You have attacked Christianity and Islam, and religion in general, for its oppressive actions. I agree with most of what you say in regard to religion, by the way.

However, by doing so, you are putting yourself on a moral pedestal. By judging the wrongs of others, you are claiming to know whats right, somehow. And then on top of that, you say that it's okay to let poor people starve, and that the reason you don't want to help Africans with AIDS is because they are "smelly black people".

I don't understand how you can't see your own hypocrisy.

If you truly beleive that people deserve to be happy (which seems to be the case since you beleive no one's rights should be infringed upon), then you should be for people's happiness all the way. Not just in *certain cases* (like if thier white and wealthy).

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not necessarily. But I think evil is to require people to help. Create the idea that they have the duty to help. In my opinion they don't, and it is evil to imply it.

How is it evil to require someone to help ?

Even if you gave $5.00, that would help Africa. Thier economy is so bad, that even $5.00 or five Euro makes a huge difference to one African family.

How is that more evil than allowing people to suffer and die, people who are asking for our help, when you had the power to help ?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Or one day you will understand my superior and more logical philosophy (well, while we are at being condescending why not go all the way?)

Don't flatter yourself bro. I respect you sometimes, but in this debate, you've shown me a side of yourself that I dislike.

Originally posted by Kelly_Bean
Cancer isn't really fully cured. There's always the possibility of it coming back. I watched somewhere that we're all born with a bit of cancer in us from some chemical imbalance in our brains or something. Just because some people survive cancer and it's "rid" of with chemo and stuff like that doesn't mean it's gone, the traces will always be there.

Remission is the end of Cancer. That's when its cured.

You don't understand Cancer. Cancer flourishes when the Immune System is damaged. AS long as the Immune System is strong, pre-cancerous cells will be destroyed before they can spread.

And not all tumors are cancer. Benign Tumors are "cancerous" cells which have grown out of proportion, but will not lead to cancer, since they do not touch the bloodstream.

Malignant tumors are tumors which grow out of control, and will eventually spread though the bloodstream. While benign tumors dont grow back, malignant ones do.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Look, I agree that hurting someone and not helping someone are just as bad, but they are not the same. Just because I don't help you doesn't mean I should be held responcible, unless I undeniably, deliberately allowed you to suffer. That's ridiculous.

I didn't say they were the same action. I said they lead to the same result, which is a result of death and suffering. And you agree with me there.

My anology may have been flawed, but my point is very clear. And that's all that matters to me. As long as you got my point, then my anology worked.

And no, ofcourse you are not responsible for another person's survival. I never said that. But in deciding to not help someone, knowing full well they are suffering and in need, knowing full well you can help them, you are no better than the person who intentionally takes away from them. That's all I said.

Originally posted by lord xyz
In other words, you only agree with the parts that support your biased claim. As if, you didn't listen to me at all.

You don't even know what I disagree with.

What I don't agree with is you saying that "some people don't deserve to be helped". What qualifies someone as deserving of your help ? Do they have to pass a certain test ? Do they have to clean your shoes for you first ? How the hell is a young child with HIV supposed to earn your help ? That's absurd.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
[b]Remission is the end of Cancer. That's when its cured.

You don't understand Cancer. Cancer flourishes when the Immune System is damaged. AS long as the Immune System is strong, pre-cancerous cells will be destroyed before they can spread.

And not all tumors are cancer. Benign Tumors are "cancerous" cells which have grown out of proportion, but will not lead to cancer, since they do not touch the bloodstream.

Malignant tumors are tumors which grow out of control, and will eventually spread though the bloodstream. While benign tumors dont grow back, malignant ones do. [/B]

Originally posted by Kelly_Bean
As if you do?
Like I said before, once cancer is in the system it is never fully flushed out, no matter what.

that is incorrect.

While many "cured" cases of cancer, or remissions, are just dormant cancer cells that could one day become active again, it is not impossible for all cancerous cells to be expelled from the system.

As many cancerous tumors are genetic or environmental, many times the cancer will return, which would be almost indistinguishable from it always having been there.

Unfortunately, much like brain death, being 100% rid of cancerous cells may just be something we don't have the technical equipment or understanding to be specifically positive about.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh, my bad, I will explain it more thoroughly to you:

Infringing on ones freedom is wrong, but allowing poverty to continue isn't.

Speaking of nature, are you aware of the Asian Small-Clawed Otter? They are a breed of otter that hang around in big social groups. They aren't the strongest, nor are they the biggest, they're the smallest, yet they live longest and are known as the healthiest. I was told by the zookeeper this is because they live in a social group. Now, yes it would be foolish to accept that as fact straight away, but it just makes sense. Being social makes people advance more than advancing separately. That's in many TV shows and films. You can call me stupid for that belief, but that's what I think. I mean, I don't have all the answers, I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but it's my belief, and I stand by it.

To put it another way, helping eachother out is what I believe is the main importance in society. The more we help eachother, the better our society. The less we help eachother, the worse our society. We can't survive on our own. We as people and communities. We survive better with allies. 2 heads are better than one and all that. A team is better than a player and an army is better than a soldier. Get it?

Originally posted by Kelly_Bean
As if you do?

Yes, I've researched it for a while. The reasons why I have are personal, so I won't go into them.

Originally posted by Kelly_Bean
Like I said before, once cancer is in the system it is never fully flushed out, no matter what.

That's not true. You are mistaking terms.

We are born with cells which will deviate from thier original function, because they were not developed properly. Those cells are termed "cancerous cells" because they do not abide by thier original programming and instead only replicate without end.

Those cells are killed off my our immune system every day. That happens all the time, to every single person. That is not Cancer.

Cancer is when those cells grow exceeding the rate at which our immune system can stop them. That is what Cancer is.

Remission is when Cancer no longer occurs. When the "cancerous" cells are destroyed at a successful rate by a dominant immune system.

When Remission occurs without interruption for atleast five years, the cancer is considered cured. Look it up.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I didn't say they were the same action. I said they lead to the same result, which is a result of death and suffering. And you agree with me there.

My anology may have been flawed, but my point is very clear. And that's all that matters to me. As long as you got my point, then my anology worked.

And no, ofcourse you are not responsible for another person's survival. I never said that. But in deciding to not help someone, knowing full well they are suffering and in need, knowing full well you can help them, you are no better than the person who intentionally takes away from them. That's all I said.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
You don't even know what I disagree with.

What I don't agree with is you saying that "some people don't deserve to be helped". What qualifies someone as deserving of your help ? Do they have to pass a certain test ? Do they have to clean your shoes for you first ? How the hell is a young child with HIV supposed to earn your help ? [b]That's absurd. [/B]

Helping people get better I believe is right as I believe nothing is more important than human life. Helping people like a beggar who's probably gonna die anyway, is stupid. And going back to healthcare in Africa, if we help them and they still die, we would have wasted our money. That's absurd.

And I understand the confusion with me using deserve. I apoligise for that, but I don't know the specific word I should have used.

In most Sub-Saharan African countries, HIV percentages are rising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_in_Africa

I want to say some things that would make me look like a jerk, but I won't.

Can I say some things and you guys not hold it against me? In other words, if I say something you don't like, tell why you don't like it, AND do not hold that against me permanently IF I decide to change my point of view based on your argument. Thank you.

Originally posted by Saxondale
I've been watching KMC GDF for sometime. I have been truly impressed by the high level debating that goes on here. So many truly intelligent people. I think you should put these skills to good use. I truly believe the great minds here capable of solving world issues (at least online). Let's start with the African AIDs pandemic. Please put your minds to this. How can we solve it?

Of course to do that effectively you need international cooperation.

And to do that you need to unite all Western and Eastern power-hub nations under one banner and vision.

To do that you need to eliminate much of said nations existing problems so as to create peaceful and determined societies.

Yet to do that you need a figurehead within one or more of these nations to take Democracy by the reins and steer it away from rampant corruption.

That being said, Fascism is only half a century dead and still used as a synonym for "bully." Communism simply ignores human corruption, and any other form of authoritarian/totalitarian rule (which would give the aforementioned figurehead the power to enact the above scenario) has been shunned by most of the major powers of the world, thereby rendering the Save Africa From AIDS Now campaign, a total bust.

Originally posted by dadudemon
In most Sub-Saharan African countries, HIV percentages are rising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_in_Africa

I want to say some things that would make me look like a jerk, but I won't.

Can I say some things and you guys not hold it against me? In other words, if I say something you don't like, tell why you don't like it, AND do not hold that against me permanently IF I decide to change my point of view based on your argument. Thank you.

About the HIV rising thing, I'm not sure if that's true. If it is, holy shit.