I honestly dont know why you guys keep arguing about lightsaber fights. Did the thread starter say this is a lightsaber fight? I thought this was an all out fight. Meaning a fight involving not just the use of lightsaber but also the Force.
As far as Im concern I dont see anybody curbstomping anybody in this fight.
I dont see how anyone can question the validity of Ulic's power. The fact that he was able to hang with Kun in their fight speaks volumes of his power, the idea of him supposedly losing to him if that continued longer(which I disagree btw and requires proof) is irrelevant. Just the fact that he can hold his own against Kun for HOURS is already one of the most impressive feats a force-user can do. Lets also take to consider that Ulic came from a time where Jedi are incredibly strong in the force, not to mention tough. I mean Jedi Knights like Tott Doneeta can directly deflect a barrage of blasts from the formidable Basilisk War Droids with just the Force. Then Sylvar and Dace Diath can do the same with their lightsabers. Then 10 years later, Tott was strong enough to survive a direct hit from a damn Heat Storm which ravaged a part of his planet's countryside, and he was still strong enough to get up and immediately head out for the Jedi Conclave several light years away. Then we come to the Jedi Masters like Thon who can easily deflect a salvo of blasts from a much bigger ship, with the Force. Put Ulic in this equation, who is way more powerful than Tott, Sylvar and Dace. And likely more powerful than Thon.
As for the Exile. Judging from the posts here, I get the feeling there's more hate for her than actually proving how she's nothing special. What's the deal? Lets get the facts straight. The Exile is FAR from being average. That 'average' Exile existed even before the Mandalorian Wars. Beating two Sith Lords 10 years later would prove that she is not average at all. And anybody who still claim that she beat them through circumstances has yet to prove it. She beat them fair and square and proved that she's stronger than both. Heck, she didnt just beat them, she beat 2 souped up Sith Lords. Take note that she fought them at the heart of Malachor where the dark-side energies which permeates throughout Malachor, are at its strongest. And another thing that you guys forgot is the fact she fought and beat these Sith Lords consecutively. After beating Sion, she immediately went on to fight Traya. She had no rest inbetween the fights. Now is that really the feats of a Jedi who wouldnt hold a candle against Ulic?
IMO, this is a great fight. I still maintain that Exile will put up a good fight, but in the end Ulic will prove to be the victor. Why? Part of it is because of the stuff I wrote above. But most of it is because we dont know how strong the Exile really is in the sense of if whether she excels in Lightsaber combat more than Force combat and vice versa, or she excels in them both. The fact is we dont know for certain. While Ulic has been already established as a Master Swordsman and a very strong practitioner of the Force.
Originally posted by -Blasmaster-
I honestly dont know why you guys keep arguing about lightsaber fights. Did the thread starter say this is a lightsaber fight? I thought this was an all out fight. Meaning a fight involving not just the use of lightsaber but also the Force.As far as Im concern I dont see anybody curbstomping anybody in this fight.
I dont see how anyone can question the validity of Ulic's power. The fact that he was able to hang with Kun in their fight speaks volumes of his power, the idea of him supposedly losing to him if that continued longer(which I disagree btw and requires proof) is irrelevant. Just the fact that he can hold his own against Kun for HOURS is already one of the most impressive feats a force-user can do. Lets also take to consider that Ulic came from a time where Jedi are incredibly strong in the force, not to mention tough. I mean Jedi Knights like Tott Doneeta can directly deflect a barrage of blasts from the formidable Basilisk War Droids with just the Force. Then Sylvar and Dace Diath can do the same with their lightsabers. Then 10 years later, Tott was strong enough to survive a direct hit from a damn Heat Storm which ravaged a part of his planet's countryside, and he was still strong enough to get up and immediately head out for the Jedi Conclave several light years away. Then we come to the Jedi Masters like Thon who can easily deflect a salvo of blasts from a much bigger ship, with the Force. Put Ulic in this equation, who is way more powerful than Tott, Sylvar and Dace. And likely more powerful than Thon.
As for the Exile. Judging from the posts here, I get the feeling there's more hate for her than actually proving how she's nothing special. What's the deal? Lets get the facts straight. The Exile is FAR from being average. That 'average' Exile existed even before the Mandalorian Wars. Beating two Sith Lords 10 years later would prove that she is not average at all. And anybody who still claim that she beat them through circumstances has yet to prove it. She beat them fair and square and proved that she's stronger than both. Heck, she didnt just beat them, she beat 2 [b]souped up
Sith Lords. Take note that she fought them at the heart of Malachor where the dark-side energies which permeates throughout Malachor, are at its strongest. And another thing that you guys forgot is the fact she fought and beat these Sith Lords consecutively. After beating Sion, she immediately went on to fight Traya. She had no rest inbetween the fights. Now is that really the feats of a Jedi who wouldnt hold a candle against Ulic?IMO, this is a great fight. I still maintain that Exile will put up a good fight, but in the end Ulic will prove to be the victor. Why? Part of it is because of the stuff I wrote above. But most of it is because we dont know how strong the Exile really is in the sense of if whether she excels in Lightsaber combat more than Force combat and vice versa, or she excels in them both. The fact is we dont know for certain. While Ulic has been already established as a Master Swordsman and a very strong practitioner of the Force. [/B]
Beating Kreia and Nihilus doesn't necessarily make her the better combatant. She has the "wound in the force" edge, otherwise Nihilus would have annihilated her.
I was talking about Sion and Traya. I never mentioned Nihilus once in my posts. I agree with you about Nihilus. He was quite clearly the strongest character in the game.
As for Traya I dont quite agree. Even if the Exile wasn't a wound in the force and Traya can use her Force Drain, does that mean she wouldve annihilated the Exile? Maybe, Maybe not. For me, The Exile still has good chance of beating her. Considering that she was at a disadvantage when she fought Sion and Traya and still won, makes me think she's strong enough to still win against Traya + Force Drain. One doesn't need to resist the Force Drain and hope to win. One can just simply prevent it from being used in the first place.
Originally posted by Allankles
Sorry, if I come off as arrogant I just don't have the energy to rewrite points that have been addressed previously. I'd go as far as saying Atris is above Warb Null - after all she had generations of Sith lore to back her up.
I guess you missed the fact that Warb Null was a guy possessed by the spirit of an Ancient Sith. So I wonder how librarian Atris would have more Sith knowledge than him. You might want to explain that to us.
Borbarad, your example on ESB Luke is pretty weak. The Exile was beating Sion, when I say "holding off" I mean that in the context of fighting a physically immortal foe. Anyone else and I would've used words like 'defeated', 'killed', 'curbstomped' etc etc.
Which is all pretty nice - but awfully pretty stupid. What does the fact that Sion can't be killed in a usual way say about his lightsaber abilities ? Right. Nothing. So what does it say about the Exile that she was able to hold him off or defeat him in lightsaber combat ? Again: Nothing.
The Exile basically bettered Sion on every ocassion opening up her opportunities to break his will with words. Proving on those occasions that she was the better fighter.
You seem to have understood the concept of game interpretation and yet you choose to ignore it again ? You really think that the Exile did cut down Sion multiple times as in "bringing his HP bar down to zero". Or can it be that they talked while fighting - which can't be displayed as such in the game. And still being better than somebody who's lightsaber skill is by any definition unknown doesn't strikes me as too impressive.
I already know the narration of Kun and Ulic's fight, I have a copy of the comic. For someone who was an equal, why does Ulic function as the apprentice? If you mention force power, then that give's Kun the edge over Ulic in combat - thereby making him the superior and Ulic naturally the inferior. I don't see what you're trying to prove here.
I don't see what you're trying to argue here. First: The omniscient narrator states they were equal in terms of combat. End of story. Second: I didn't see any reason given by Ragnos to make Exar Kun the Dark Lord and not Ulic. So you aren't doing much here but speculating especially since Ulic, up to that point in the storyline, has shown more in terms of raw force abilities and lightsaber abilities than Exar Kun.
Ulic's feats by themselves don't put him above the Exile, you have to go by wishful thinking and what you believe to be inferred ideas of his yet-to-be-chronicled uber combat prowess.Ulic was good - let's not hype him up beyond that - but not better than the Exile based on their respective showings.
Based on what respective showings, dude ?
The Exile teamed a previously weakened Nihilus with support of two other people. Proof for her combat prowess there ? None. Then she talked Sion to death, a guy with non-existant feats in the lightsaber department. Proof for her combat prowess there ? None. She defeated Atris, the Jedi Orders librarians that, for all we know, never saw real combat action. Proof for her combat prowess there ? None. And of course she defeated Kreia, a one handed woman that wasn't able to use her most powerful force technique against the Exile. Proof for the Exile's combat prowess there ? None.
Ulic jumped right through a force attack that floored prodigious people like Nomi Sunrider rather easily to cut down a Sith Magician who had access to Adas holocron and who belonged to a lineage of Dark Siders. He defeated Mandalore, who was said to have been the most powerful duellist of an entire race of warriors. He cut down Warb Null, a guy in Sith Armor possessed by the spirit of an Ancient Sith, with a swift movement when the guy rather easily dominated two of Ulic's Jedi friends rather easily before that. And he stalemated Kun, who was a rather gifted duellist and force user in his own right - in fact the most skilled student of a guy that trained Jedi for centuries.
I wonder how the Exile's showings are compareable to that. Especially when the Exile had an advantage in any of those fights with the exception of her confrontation with Atris.
Again to Borbarad, your points are weak and/or have already been addressed.
Translation for the audience: "As I don't really have an argument I'd rather ignore your points, Borbarad, instead of ridicule myself further with trying to answer them." KK.THX.BYE.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I guess you missed the fact that Warb Null [b]was a guy possessed by the spirit of an Ancient Sith. So I wonder how librarian Atris would have more Sith knowledge than him. You might want to explain that to us. [/B]
So a single unknown Sith spirit had the knowledge of the sum total of generations of Sith lore? Remember that Atris had collected all the Sith holocrons the Jedi possessed in the galaxy.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Which is all pretty nice - but awfully pretty stupid. What does the fact that Sion can't be killed in a usual way say about his lightsaber abilities ?
When the **** was the contest exclusive to lightsabers? Do you even know what we're arguing about? It's an all out fight not merely a lightsaber contest.
Originally posted by Borbarad
You seem to have understood the concept of game interpretation and yet you choose to ignore it again ? You really think that the Exile did cut down Sion multiple times as in "bringing his HP bar down to zero". Or can it be that they talked while fighting - which can't be displayed as such in the game. And still being better than somebody who's lightsaber skill is by any definition unknown doesn't strikes me as too impressive.
You seem to not know how to address the crux of the argument. I don't give a s**t how she did it. The point that you seem not to get is that she had to "hold-off" Sion in combat before breaking him down with words. And that would be impossible without sowing doubt in Sion's mind by somehow bettering him, physically.
Remember Sion has to acknowledge her superiority in skill and power before ever doubting himself. You think mere words with no action would break Sion down? I can see why you haven't gotten it.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Ulic jumped right through a force attack that floored prodigious people like Nomi Sunrider rather easily to cut down a Sith Magician who had access to Adas holocron and who belonged to a lineage of Dark Siders.
The Exile defeated a physical immortal, a Sith that could devour worlds and a Sith Lord capable of tearing the life out of Jedi with one wave of her hand.
Ulic beat a run-of the mill dark Jedi in Warb Null, and a decrepit half-rotting Zombie Sith magician. Maybe if Ommin wasn't so... fragile, he might have qualified as a foe on par with Ulic.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Translation for the audience: "As I don't really have an argument I'd rather ignore your points, Borbarad, instead of ridicule myself further with trying to answer them." KK.THX.BYE.
Look here, I don't feel the need to reply to arguments I've already defeated and/or addressed previously in this and other threads. Our interactions here are informal, I'm allowed to be lazy if I want to be. Continue to repeat arguments that have already been countered very well by me and others in this thread and I'll ignore your posts, don't flatter yourself.
Originally posted by Allankles
So a single unknown Sith spirit had the knowledge of the sum total of generations of Sith lore? Remember that Atris had collected all the Sith holocrons the Jedi possessed in the galaxy.
Yes. And she did study the Sith language, than she of course unlocked all knowledge stored in that holocrons. I guess somebody who actually lived in the Ancient Sith Empire and had - going by average Sith livespan - more than a century to study that stuff, would have a little bit more Sith knowledge than Atris.
When the **** was the contest exclusive to lightsabers? Do you even know what we're arguing about? It's all out fight not merely a lightsaber contest.
It's a lightsaber and force contest, dude. That's usually how Sith and Jedi duke it out. And neither the defeat of Sion nor that of Kreia or Nihilus do say anything about the Exile's lightsaber skill and force mastery.
You seem to not know how to address the crux of the argument. I don't give a s**t how she did it. The point that you seem not to get is that she had to "hold-off" Sion in combat before breaking him down with words. And that would be impossible without sowing doubt in Sion's mind by somehow bettering him, physically.
Obviously you are too stupid to recognize an argument even if it bites you. The "how" is the crucial point here and nothing else unless you want to assume that the Exile is going to talk Ulic to death.
Remember Sion has to acknowledge her superiority in skill and power before ever doubting himself. You think mere words with no action would break Sion down? I can see why you haven't gotten it.
Yes. That's precisely what's happened because he's only killed by chosing the right dialoque options. Following your logic he should die after X blows regardless of what you talk to him - which isn't the case.
And even if it was the words combined with the action: You don't know the level of Sion's lightsaber skill so there is nothing to base an argument on that he was anywhere difficult to "hold-off". Got that into your head now ? Hence that action does hardly speak for the Exile's combat prowess.
The Exile defeated a physical immortal,
by talking him to death...Nice way dodging the point.
a Sith that could devour worlds
...in a 3on1 after said Sith Lords was weakened twice (once by attempting to drain the Exile, then through Visas' connection to him). That's aside from the fact that he couldn't use his drain against the Exile. Nice attempt to dodge the point once more.
and a Sith Lord capable of tearing the life out of Jedi with one wave of her hand.
...and which was not able to do that to the Exile because of the Exile's nature. Thanks. I already knew that. Anymore boredom you have to offer ?
Ulic beat a run-of the mill dark Jedi in Warb Null,
...who fended of two other Jedi with apparent ease, wore an armor altered with Sith Alchemy and was possessed by the spirit of an ancient Sith.
and a decrepit half-rotting Zombie Sith magician. Maybe if Ommin wasn't so... fragile, he might have qualified as a foe on par with Ulic.
...who had enough force powers up his sleeve to own Arca Jeth in a direct force contest and floor multiple Jedi with a single force attack aside from mind-controlling another force user (Satal Keto) and having the greatest single source of Dark Side knowledge (Adas holocron) in his possession. Thanks for ignoring all points once more. Why you even bother hitting the reply button if you have nothing to say, eh ?
That aside from the fact that you've forgotten the fact that Ulic stalemated Kun (and don't even dare to come up with the "Buhuhu. But Exar was superior" again), defeated Mandalore despite of sacrificing most of his advantages, killed Satal Keto, floored two Jedi with a burst of anger and apparently also damaged a nice stone structure and destroyed a torture droid with a similar uncontrolled use of his abilities.
Look here, I don't feel the need to reply to arguments I've already defeated and/or addressed previously in this and other threads. Our interactions here are informal, I'm allowed to be lazy if I want to be. Continue to repeat arguments that have already been countered very well by me and others in this thread and I'll ignore your posts, don't flatter yourself.
I didn't see you addressing (and much less defeating) anything here. You're basically posting the same crap over and over again while completely inable to come up with any sort of argument, proof or even the slightest viable assumption as to why the Exile should be able to beat Ulic Qel-Droma in a fight. So...
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. And she did study the Sith language, than she of course unlocked all knowledge stored in that holocrons. I guess somebody who actually lived in the Ancient Sith Empire and had - going by average Sith livespan - more than a century to study that stuff, would have a little bit more Sith knowledge than Atris.
Unfounded assumptions. He was just some Sith spirit that resided in a little dark side tome. Don't make unfounded assumpitons of his 100 year reign as a Sith Lord. Warb Null (before his transformation) studied the dark side knowledge of one Sith, Atris has studied many more, plus she had years as a Jedi historian on top of that. It is fair to say she's more formidable than Warb Null.
Originally posted by Borbarad
It's a lightsaber and force contest, dude. That's usually how Sith and Jedi duke it out. And neither the defeat of Sion nor that of Kreia or Nihilus do say anything about the Exile's lightsaber skill and force mastery.
Thanks for stating the obvious. Kreia applied three telekinetically controlled lightsabers in her duel - implying the Exile had the skill and power to counter such difficult odds.
Sion was a physical immortal - it is fair to say it was an all out fight. Nihilus was very powerful opponent even after he was weakened. Powerful enough that Visas had to use the force to break Nihilus' bond with his ship because he was still "too strong" - implying again it was an all out fight.
The Exile learning force and lightsaber forms after brief observation from the three Jedi masters - the narrative giving us a good overview of her knowledge in Jedi combat, both through force forms and lightsaber techniques.
Malak stating that the Jedi Masters spoke highly of her skills in combat. etc etc
Originally posted by Borbarad
Obviously you are too stupid to recognize an argument even if it bites you. The "how" [b]is the crucial point here and nothing else unless you want to assume that the Exile is going to talk Ulic to death. [/B]
Maybe you have comprehension difficulties. Sion's will is the only thing that keeps him "alive". With that said, the Exile has to sow doubt in Sion's mind by first bettering him in combat.
The 'how' is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make which is - the Exile merely talked Sion to death. The point of your argument is rendered invalid, by the fact that Sion's doubt is fostered by his inability to better the Exile in combat.
The fact that her skill and power sowed doubt in Sion's mind before she could break Sion's will with words is all that matters - it is the crux of the argument.
The specifics are relveant only if I want to present to you the very logical possibility, that the Exile could very well have defeated Sion with lightsabers ALONE. No logical debater would even go down this route. The Exile could be lightsbaber duelist of unparalelled skill or have great force mastery with average skill.
Effectively, the narration manages to depict her as an excellent combatant, regarldess of where her greatest strengths lie. It is pointless argument to make for the very reason that it is indeterminate.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And even if it was the words combined with the action: You don't know the level of Sion's lightsaber skill so there is nothing to base an argument on that he was anywhere difficult to "hold-off". Got that into your head now ? Hence that action does hardly speak for the Exile's combat prowess.
You're a little dim. Sion's immortality is what makes him difficult to hold off, especially when he's got a reserve of dark side energy with which to draw power from i.e planetoids like Korriban and Malachor 5. He's immortality; that's what you have to overcome, and not anyone can do it for obvious reasons (you have to know where his doubt lies like the Exile did).
Originally posted by Borbarad
by talking him to death...Nice way dodging the point..
Shut up. Your capacity to debate reduces with every post it seems.
Originally posted by Borbarad
...who fended of two other Jedi with apparent ease, wore an armor altered with Sith Alchemy and was possessed by the spirit of an ancient Sith.
So it's not possible for a run of the mill dark Jedi to fend off other lesser Jedi? Weren't those Jedi, Cay and Doneeta? Wow! What a feat! Stop the irrational counterarguments. You're not making much of a case for Warb Null.
Originally posted by Borbarad
.....who had enough force powers up his sleeve to own Arca Jeth in a direct force contest and floor multiple Jedi with a single force attack aside from mind-controlling another force user (Satal Keto) and having the greatest single source of Dark Side knowledge (Adas holocron) in his possession. Thanks for ignoring all points once more. Why you even bother hitting the reply button if you have nothing to say, eh ?.
Arca Jeth being the epitome of Jedi strength and power, right?! you'd want us believing Arca was Yoda, if left unchecked. And Arca was overwhelmned by the conserted efforts of Nadd and Ommin, I'm guessing you left that little bit of info out on purpose.
Yeah! I don't remember doubting Ommin's considerable force abilities, they're not quite as potent as Kreia's drain but they were strong. However, physically he was a major push-over and that's how Ulic beat him, through physical means.
Originally posted by Borbarad
That aside from the fact that you've forgotten the fact that Ulic stalemated Kun (and don't even dare to come up with the "Buhuhu. But Exar was superior" again), defeated Mandalore despite of sacrificing most of his advantages, killed Satal Keto, floored two Jedi with a burst of anger and apparently also damaged a nice stone structure and destroyed a torture droid with a similar uncontrolled use of his abilities..
Buhuhu yourself. He stalemated Kun, but Kun is just about the only guy he faced that could match him, and ironically he's also the only guy he fought that he couldn't beat. By contrast the Exile beat all three of the powerful opponents she faced. Ulic stalemating Kun isn't as valuable a feat as you'd like.
I
Originally posted by Borbarad
..... didn't see you addressing (and much less defeating) anything here. You're basically posting the same crap over and over again while completely inable to come up with any sort of argument, proof or even the slightest viable assumption as to why the Exile should be able to beat Ulic Qel-Droma in a fight. So...
You seem to be the one rehashing arguments I've already had with Saxy and others in this thread, unless you consider talking Sion to death and stalemating Kun "new" arguments?
Unless you can come up with a solid argument as to how Warb Null and Ommin are as dangerous as Traya, Sion and Nihilus this debate is effectively done.
No assumptions based on what you beleive are inferred ideas e.g. "he stale mated Kun he must be a lightsaber god", or "warb null is basically a god-like ancient sith".
Non of that bs, just the facts. And the facts show Warb Null as a run of the mill dark Jedi that got beaten easily after a few lightsaber strikes. Ommin as powerful but extremely fragile dark sider that got cut down with one swift strike. Nothing that suggests Ulic has contended with nearly as much adversity in his victories, as the Exile.
Lacking a constant with which to compare the two directly, that's what gives the Exile the edge for me. Go ahead and post more of those rehashed, badly constructed arguments again, Nai.
Originally posted by Allankles
Unfounded assumptions. He was just some Sith spirit that resided in a little dark side tome. Don't make unfounded assumpitons of his 100 year reign as a Sith Lord. Warb Null (before his transformation) studied the dark side knowledge of one Sith, Atris has studied many more, plus she had years as a Jedi historian on top of that. It is fair to say she's more formidable than Warb Null.
It must be hard to understand...
Warb Null = possessed by Ancient Sith spirit.
Notice: That spirit, whoever it was, lived in the times of the ancient Sith Empire when Sith teachings were commonly experienced in every days live. It doesn't matter how much knowledge about that time or the Sith ways Atris might have accessed. The spirit, when he was alive, LIVED among the Ancient Sith, studied their secrets when they were at their high point and probably used them for a damn longer time than Atris had accessed them. Got that ?
Thanks for stating the obvious. Kreia applied three telekinetically controlled lightsabers in her duel - implying the Exile had the skill and power to counter such difficult odds.
And considering we still don't know with which efficiency Kreia was able to handle those weapons telekinetically, that point is rather stupid. Because unless you present me proof that Kreia did anything impressive or hard to avoid with those sabers, there is nothing to state that the Exile needed any kind of impressive skill to compete with them.
Sion was a physical immortal - it is fair to say it was an all out fight.
What has "being physical immortal" to do with lightsaber abilities and abilities in terms of offensive force powers ? Right. Nothing. So again: You don't have any point here if you just keep talking like that because for all we know the Exile didn't need to be particulary skillful to fend off or wound Sion.
Nihilus was very powerful opponent even after he was weakened. Powerful enough that Visas had to use the force to break Nihilus' bond with his ship because he was still "too strong" - implying again it was an all out fight.
Excuse me. He first weakens himself by attempting to drain the Exile, he is weakened further by Visas after that and then he gets teamed by three people. Again. Where is the proof for the Exile's superiority over Ulic here, that you're estimating the entire time ?
The Exile learning force and lightsaber forms after brief observation from the three Jedi masters - the narrative giving us a good overview of her knowledge in Jedi combat, both through force forms and lightsaber techniques.
As far as gameplay isn't considered she learns no lightsaber form from the Jedi Masters because that learning is based on the players choice. And I still didn't see anything in that respective scenes that would put her above Ulic.
Malak stating that the Jedi Masters spoke highly of her skills in combat. etc etc
Where did that happen, dude ? Apparently Vrook called her "average" and Vandar just noticed her force bond ability. Doesn't seem so as if they were impressed by her combat skills.
Maybe you have comprehension difficulties. Sion's will is the only thing that keeps him "alive". With that said, the Exile has to sow doubt in Sion's mind by first bettering him in combat.
Apparently you have the comprehension difficulties here: How the hell would that help her in a fight against Ulic Qel-Droma ? Just answer that damn question.
The 'how' is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make which is - the Exile merely talked Sion to death. The point of your argument is rendered invalid, by the fact that Sion's doubt is fostered by his inability to better the Exile in combat.
Which both doesn't support your claim that the Exile is superior to Ulic. Got that into your head now ? Can't be that hard to do.
The fact that her skill and power sowed doubt in Sion's mind before she could break Sion's will with words is all that matters - it is the crux of the argument.
No. It doesn't matter because that would have no bearing on a match between her and Ulic Qel-Droma unless you have proof that Sion is better than Ulic with the force or a lightsaber and even then Ulic's ego wouldn't allow him to "doubt" his abilities. So sorry. That point is simply useless.
The specifics are relveant only if I want to present to you the very logical possibility, that the Exile could very well have defeated Sion with lightsabers ALONE. No logical debater would even go down this route. The Exile could be lightsbaber duelist of unparalelled skill or have great force mastery with average skill.
Apparently you still didn't get it. Unless you proof that the Exile is superior to Ulic in terms of force powers or lightsaber combat, there is no way that she can win a duel against Ulic. It's really that easy. Unless you want to assume that she lured details of Ulic's personal life from somebody before their duel and can use them in a similar fashion she used Sion's obedience to Kreia - and you of course need to assume that Ulic would react in a similar fashion to Sion. I guess both is pretty much...laughable.
Effectively, the narration manages to depict her as an excellent combatant, regarldess of where her greatest strengths lie. It is pointless argument to make for the very reason that it is indeterminate.
So it's pointless to make a case for the Exile ? Thanks for owning yourself once again.
You're a little dim. Sion's immortality is what makes him difficult to hold off, especially when he's got a reserve of dark side energy with which to draw power from i.e planetoids like Korriban and Malachor 5. He's immortality; that's what you have to overcome, and not anyone can do it for obvious reasons (you have to know where his doubt lies like the Exile did).
How would his immortality make him difficult to hold off. Really...the guy does obviously at least feel pain. If I cut his arm off he will obviously get hurt (if not outright losing his limb because as of now I've never seen somebody trying this). So WTF ?
Shut up. Your capacity to debate reduces with every post it seems.
Nice call for a pathetic noob who doesn't seem to be capable of winning a debate against a stone cold wall. Really. If you had any ability that would enable me to destinct between you and a dead jellyfish in debates, you'd certainly have any reason to open your mouth. But as this isn't the case: STFU, noob !
So it's not possible for a run of the mill dark Jedi to fend off other lesser Jedi? Weren't those Jedi, Cay and Doneeta? Wow! What a feat! Stop the irrational counterarguments. You're not making much of a case for Warb Null.
Yeah. Todd "I block starship fire with my bare hands and can walk through a firestorm" Doneeta certainly is a little whiner without any skill. And thanks for your input, Mr "I can't come up with an argument for the Exile but I'll keep talking anyways" Noobno1
Arca Jeth being the epitome of Jedi strength and power, right?! you'd want us believing Arca was Yoda, if left unchecked. And Arca was overwhelmned by the conserted efforts of Nadd and Ommin, I'm guessing you left that little bit of info out on purpose.
Those strawmans are clearly not doing anything in your favor. Did I say Arca is Yoda ? Nope. He still is a 200 year old Jedi Master with considerable skill given his displays of battle meditation for example. And "conserted efforts" ? Lmao. Ommin points his hand at Arca and has him trapped in a Dark Side energy field. I didn't see Freedon "Don't fear me. I'm powerless." Nadd doing much there.
Yeah! I don't remember doubting Ommin's considerable force abilities, they're not quite as potent as Kreia's drain but they were strong. However, physically he was a major push-over and that's how Ulic beat him, through physical means.
After jumping right through his force attack you ignorant.
Buhuhu yourself. He stalemated Kun, but Kun is just about the only guy he faced that could match him, and ironically he's also the only guy he fought that he couldn't beat. By contrast the Exile beat all three of the powerful opponents she faced. Ulic stalemating Kun isn't as valuable a feat as you'd like.
What kind of argument is that ? Oh right. You aren't capable of producing arguments. I did almost forget that point. Kun is by far more powerful in comparison to Kreia and Sion and in contrast to Nihilus he wasn't previously weakened twice before Ulic stalemated him. So please go on with comparing apples to oranges.
You seem to be the one rehashing arguments I've already had with Saxy and others in this thread, unless you consider talking Sion to death and stalemating Kun "new" arguments?
Yes you had those arguments and you still didn't defeat any point. So why should I come back with new arguments if the old ones already destroy your pretty fanboyism. That would be a waste of time.
Unless you can come up with a solid argument as to how Warb Null and Ommin are as dangerous as Traya, Sion and Nihilus this debate is effectively done.
Yes. Nice. Shifting the burden of proof once again. Unless you come up with any argument for the Exile's superiority in comparison to Ulic the debate is done here. And I do really hope you're going to try to explain to me how any of the KotoR2 Sith trio (under consideration of the circumstances) is more dangerous then Exar Kun.
No assumptions based on what you beleive are inferred ideas e.g. "he stale mated Kun he must be a lightsaber god", or "warb null is basically a god-like ancient sith".
Excuse me. Stalemating a lightsaber god in combat does mean you're a lightsaber god. And being an ancient Sith certainly qualifies you for having more Sith knowledge than a freaking Jedi librarian that did spent some years to get some of it.
Non of that bs, just the facts. And the facts show Warb Null as a run of the mill dark Jedi that got beaten easily after a few lightsaber strikes. Ommin as powerful but extremely fragile dark sider that got cut down with one swift strike. Nothing that suggests Ulic has contended with nearly as much adversity in his victories, as the Exile.
By your logic, Sion is just a dark Jedi with one special ability, while Kreia is basically the same as Ommin (just without the decades of Dark Side use, the sources and the Dark Sider ancestry that Ommin had).
Lacking a constant with which to compare the two directly, that's what gives the Exile the edge for me. Go ahead and post more of those rehashed, badly constructed arguments again, Nai.
That trumps anything I've seen so far. Because we can't compare them, the Exile wins. Great stuff, dude. Pass what you're smoking, please.
Originally posted by Borbarad
It must be hard to understand...
Warb Null = possessed by Ancient Sith spirit.
Notice: That spirit, whoever it was, lived in the times of the ancient Sith Empire when Sith teachings were commonly experienced in every days live. It doesn't matter how much knowledge about that time or the Sith ways Atris might have accessed. The spirit, when he was alive, LIVED among the Ancient Sith, studied their secrets when they were at their high point and probably used them for a damn longer time than Atris had accessed them. Got that ?
I think I made it clear that I understood your point. However it's an unfounded assumption. Are we assuming that Atris wouldn't have attained knowledge outside of Ancient Sith teachings? How about the wealth of info as a Jedi historian? Really it would be erronous to assume that every anceint Sith had the wealth of knowledge and instruction that Atris received, simply because they were anceint Jedi.
Actually looking at it logically, majority of force users in any generation hardly have access to as much knowlege as Atris did. So there's no evidence this Sith had greater knowledge than Atris, in fact it is more likely he had less.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And considering we still don't know with which efficiency Kreia was able to handle those weapons telekinetically, that point is rather stupid. Because unless you present me proof that Kreia did anything impressive or hard to avoid with those sabers, there is nothing to state that the Exile needed any kind of impressive skill to compete with them.
This is what I call an empty argument. You don't have to address every single point your opponent makes in a debate, just the contentious issues - at least that's what good debaters do. The very meachanics of dealing with three free flowing lightsabers makes it difficult.
Think of the angles and the extent of unrestricted movement they can achieve without the limitations of being handled by a humanoid? Think also on the fact that Kreia had shown herself to be very knowledgable and powerful in the force.
Originally posted by Borbarad
What has "being physical immortal" to do with lightsaber abilities and abilities in terms of offensive force powers ? Right. Nothing. So again: You don't have any point here if you just keep talking like that because for all we know the Exile didn't need to be particulary skillful to fend off or wound Sion.
I'm beginning to wonder whether you actually played the game. In the narrative, the Exile couldn't defeat Sion at Korriban because he couldn't be beaten by physical means - as Kreia described him, " he's not a creature of flesh and bone." The game quite clearly states that Sions body is virtually unbreakable, it is only his will you can crush. So in that context Einstein the Exile would have to be very good at combat to have a chance of surviving someone like Sion. Sion is built to kill, he doesn't have to be as skillful as his opponent to kill them.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Where did that happen, dude ? Apparently Vrook called her "average" and Vandar just noticed her force bond ability. Doesn't seem so as if they were impressed by her combat skills.
Vrook and Vandar didn't refer to her combat skills. It was Malak who mentioned the Exile's highly rated combat skills before they joined the Mando Wars. This happens on Korriban.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently you have the comprehension difficulties here: How the hell would that help her in a fight against Ulic Qel-Droma ? Just answer that damn question..
Her ability to learn lightsaber and force techniques by brief observation, would mean that nothing Ulic would do as far as pure technique is concerned would throw her off. It also means she can discern the weaknesses in whatever form or technique Ulic uses in relation to her own. Ulic is certainly not overwhelming the Exile in power (she's faced more powerful foes), nor in skill - thanks to her gift
Originally posted by Borbarad
No. It [b]doesn't matter because that would have no bearing on a match between her and Ulic Qel-Droma unless you have proof that Sion is better than Ulic with the force or a lightsaber and even then Ulic's ego wouldn't allow him to "doubt" his abilities. So sorry. That point is simply useless. [/B]
Which point? Your comprehension difficulties surface once again. My arguments over Sion have no direct correlation to how the Exile handles Ulic. It's your fault for raising useless points like, " she talked Sion to death." Sion just represents an opponent who was more formidable than anyone Ulic has defeated.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently you still didn't get it. Unless you proof that the Exile is superior to Ulic in terms of force powers or lightsaber combat, there is no way that she can win a duel against Ulic. It's really that easy. Unless you want to assume that she lured details of Ulic's personal life from somebody before their duel and can use them in a similar fashion she used Sion's obedience to Kreia - and you of course need to assume that Ulic would react in a similar fashion to Sion. I guess both is pretty much...laughable.
ARE YOU RETARDED? Since when was Ulic a physical immortal who could only be defeated by breaking his will to live? Sion's only weakness, is his greatest strength, his will. It is because of his will that he's body is immortal and by breaking that very same will it is possible to defeat him. Get it now, Sherlock? You're such a difficult person to debate with. Overly long posts, a multitude of irrelevant points, unfounded assumptions for "arguments".
Focus, it can't be that difficult given the subject.
Originally posted by Borbarad
So it's pointless to make a case for the Exile ? Thanks for owning yourself once again.
Thanks for displaying you inability to grasp a point that requires a reasoning capacity a little beyond a fifth grader's. Saves me a lot of energy. I would think Kotor game animations are a little more impressive than Kotor comic panels, but that's me (If you don't get it don't embarrass yourself with some inane rebuttal). Let's not argue over the value of mediums (you know, circumventing arguments and all that).
Originally posted by Borbarad
How would his immortality make him difficult to hold off. Really...the guy does obviously at least feel pain. If I cut his arm off he will obviously get hurt (if not outright losing his limb because as of now I've never seen somebody trying this). So WTF ?
Your arguing with me over aspects of the narration? Those are arguments for the Kotor 2 writers, not me. You couldn't beat Sion physically, that's the official story.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Nice call for a pathetic noob who doesn't seem to be capable of winning a debate against a stone cold wall. Really. If you had any ability that would enable me to destinct between you and a dead jellyfish in debates, you'd certainly have any reason to open your mouth. But as this isn't the case: STFU, noob !
Wow! A decent insult! Good to see you're relatively decent at something, because debating isn't your forte.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Todd "I block starship fire with my bare hands and can walk through a firestorm" Doneeta certainly is a little whiner without any skill. And thanks for your input, Mr "I can't come up with an argument for the Exile but I'll keep talking anyways" Noobno1!
Yeah! He did that briefly, but he never stood out. Tott was an exemplary Jedi in his conduct, not in his power or skill. Or are you claiming otherwise? He was average, way-to go Warb Null, you could beat average Jedi, like Doneeta and Willum (or whoever it was that he fought).
Originally posted by Borbarad
Those strawmans are clearly not doing anything in your favor. Did I say Arca is Yoda ? Nope. He still is a 200 year old Jedi Master with considerable skill given his displays of battle meditation for example. And "conserted efforts" ? Lmao. Ommin points his hand at Arca and has him trapped in a Dark Side energy field. I didn't see Freedon "Don't fear me. I'm powerless." Nadd doing much there.
Fine it was a strawman, however Arca wasn't excepional outside of his BM. He was wise, knowledgable and relatively powerful, but I could say the same for just about every noted or celebrated Jedi Master. Not much of a point for Ommin, considering I ALREADY knew this when I made my assesment on the Onderonian half-zombie monarch.
Ommin still isn't a Kreia-level opponent. Powerful enough to subdue Arca, but so is Kreia I would assume and more - Kreia could kill Jedi with one single attack with the force.
Originally posted by Borbarad
After jumping [b]right through his force attack you ignorant.[/B]
I already knew that you dim-wit. Did I mention I have possesion of the comic (somewhere)? That's why I've clarified that I acknowledge Ommin as a powerful wizard, he's just way too vulnerable though.
Originally posted by Borbarad
What kind of argument is that ? Oh right. You aren't capable of producing arguments. I did almost forget that point. Kun is by far more powerful in comparison to Kreia and Sion and in contrast to Nihilus he wasn't previously weakened twice before Ulic stalemated him. So please go on with comparing apples to oranges.
What does that even equate to really? When Kun fought Ulic he was an inexperienced dark sider that was using his lightsaber only. Nothing about Kun there suggest he was more dangerous than Kreia was on Malachor 5 at the end of Kotor. Despite that, Ulic only managed a DRAW after a brief encounter.
See how context is so important in determining the value of feats? Just because it's the much vaunted and often times overrated Kun (especially at the time they fought), doesn't render the feat more valuable than the Exile's biggest feats. I would say Warb Null and Ommin are more signifcant to Ulic, because he actually beat them. You don't have to have the edge to draw with an opponent.
Originally posted by Allankles
What does that even equate to really? When Kun fought Ulic he was an inexperienced dark sider that was using his lightsaber only. Nothing about Kun there suggest he was more dangerous than Kreia was on Malachor 5 at the end of Kotor. Despite that, Ulic only managed a DRAW after a brief encounter.See how context is so important in determining the value of feats? Just because it's the much vaunted and often times overrated Kun (especially at the time they fought), doesn't render the feat more valuable than the Exile's biggest feats. I would say Warb Null and Ommin are more signifcant to Ulic, because he actually beat them. You don't have to have the edge to draw with an opponent.
Exar Kun was surely more powerful then King Ommin and Warb Null.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
While your points do hold some merit in your most recent above reply to Nai (Borbarad), I would however like to point out that stalemating someone like Exar Kun was not at all an easy thing to do.Exar Kun was surely more powerful then King Ommin and Warb Null.
Without doubt. He was a lot less vulnerable than Ommin and more powerful than Null, however Ulic never beat him. The value of the feat is depreciated by the lack of a clear outcome. Certainly, if the fight wasn't interrupted we would have had an outcome. But as I said, you don't need an edge to draw.