Originally posted by Allankles
I think I made it clear that I understood your point. However it's an unfounded assumption.
You mean aside from the fact that the guy was capable of putting his spirit into a tome including a Sith book which he protected that in turn contained enough knowledge about Sith magic and alchemy to help a regular metallurgical student to construct that nice armor. Aside of that the spirit granted Shas Dovos (the student) the ability to understand what was written down in the books, just to possess him after he finished the construction of the armor. Give me a call when you see Atris doing anything compareable.
Are we assuming that Atris wouldn't have attained knowledge outside of Ancient Sith teachings? How about the wealth of info as a Jedi historian? Really it would be erronous to assume that every anceint Sith had the wealth of knowledge and instruction that Atris received, simply because they were anceint Jedi.
Obviously, despite you think so, you still didn't get the point. Of course Atris most likely had knowledge outside of some Sith teachings. The point is that you don't have any idea how strong that would make her as a combatant. So I don't know why you're even bringing it up.
Actually looking at it logically, majority of force users in any generation hardly have access to as much knowlege as Atris did. So there's no evidence this Sith had greater knowledge than Atris, in fact it is more likely he had less.
Urm. Earth to Allankles. I was talking about Sith knowledge. Aside of that: The Ancient Sith are quite all depicted to have livespans of several centuries. So when it comes to learning stuff they simply have some time advantage in comparison to regular human beings.
This is what I call an empty argument. You don't have to address every single point your opponent makes in a debate, just the contentious issues - at least that's what good debaters do. The very meachanics of dealing with three free flowing lightsabers makes it difficult.
No it doesn't. Because you still didn't get the point. Moving one object with the force already requires some nice amount of focus. Wielding a single lightsaber with any sufficient skill would already require more focussing than doing the same thing with your hand because in addition to the original lightsaber style work you would also have to focus on applying telekinesis on the lightsaber. Now Kreia was levitating 3 weapons. And you want to tell me that she did perform some nice bladework with all three weapons simultaneously ? This without having the slightest proof for that and while ignoring the fact that the Exile could simply have used telekinetic attacks on the weapons herself ? Good god.
Think of the angles and the extent of unrestricted movement they can achieve without the limitations of being handled by a humanoid? Think also on the fact that Kreia had shown herself to be very knowledgable and powerful in the force.
Think about the fact that Kreia would have to think about any unconventional movements for three weapons simultaneously while focusing to keep that things in the air and this while there is nothing to suggest that she's any good with lightsabers anyway.
I'm beginning to wonder whether you actually played the game. In the narrative, the Exile couldn't defeat Sion at Korriban because he couldn't be beaten by physical means - as Kreia described him, " he's not a creature of flesh and bone." The game quite clearly states that Sions body is virtually unbreakable, it is only his will you can crush. So in that context Einstein the Exile would have to be very good at combat to have a chance of surviving someone like Sion. Sion is built to kill, he doesn't have to be as skillful as his opponent to kill them.
It's getting ridiculous. Once more the simply question: How does Sion's invunerability make him any good in combat ? Of course he can jump right into a lightsaber and survive it. So what ? He has to use his lightsaber or the force to hurt the Exile and we don't know how good he is with any of that. So technically we don't know how good the Exile has to be to withstand him. Got that now ? Can't be that hard.
Vrook and Vandar didn't refer to her combat skills. It was Malak who mentioned the Exile's highly rated combat skills before they joined the Mando Wars. This happens on Korriban.
Aside from the fact that this was a vision which isn't exactly "canon" going by the fact that the Exile clearly experiences some irreal stuff there (like confronting Revan) even if that should have happened, Malak was trying to talk the Exile into joining them. Hardly something to give the Exile credit for. And even if we would do that, that wouldn't put the Exile above Ulic. So what ?
Her ability to learn lightsaber and force techniques by brief observation, would mean that nothing Ulic would do as far as pure technique is concerned would throw her off. It also means she can discern the weaknesses in whatever form or technique Ulic uses in relation to her own. Ulic is certainly not overwhelming the Exile in power (she's faced more powerful foes), nor in skill - thanks to her gift
It's quite annoying if people don't notice some minor details within the game and reach some seriously distorted conclusions. You did of course notice that the "training sequences" the Exile goes through under the masters are cut. So we don't know how much time went by during that training sessions. But even assuming that the Exile can learn uber fast - to show somebody the very basic movements and pattern of a fighting style will already take some hours. So no. She's not going to counter every movement Ulic can use with a lightsaber. Sorry.
And her force abilities ? I didn't see the Exile doing much with her force abilities and the notion that she faced stronger opponents still is an unproven assumption of yours especially if you consider the circumstances under which she faced those opponents.
Which point? Your comprehension difficulties surface once again. My arguments over Sion have no direct correlation to how the Exile handles Ulic. It's your fault for raising useless points like, " she talked Sion to death." Sion just represents an opponent who was more formidable than anyone Ulic has defeated.
Sure. Sion is more powerful in the force and better with a lightsaber than Exar "I kill Jedi Masters for fun" Kun. 🙄
ARE YOU RETARDED? Since when was Ulic a physical immortal who could only be defeated by breaking his will to live?
Yes dude. Finally realizing how pointless Mr Sion is for that debate ? Because the Exile did neither overwhelm him with superior force mastery nor did she do it with superior lightsaber skill. The mentioning of Sion is simply POINTLESS. Shall I draw you a damn picture for that ?
You couldn't beat Sion physically, that's the official story.
Which is the entire point here. Because you can't beat Sion physically (through lightsaber combat or force powers) it only makes sense to mention his defeat to "proof" the Exile's superiority over Ulic if you want to tell me that the Exile is going to defeat Sion in the same manner she did it with Sion - which is not going to happen. Easy, isn't it ?
Yeah! He did that briefly, but he never stood out. Tott was an exemplary Jedi in his conduct, not in his power or skill. Or are you claiming otherwise? He was average, way-to go Warb Null, you could beat average Jedi, like Doneeta and Willum (or whoever it was that he fought).
Yes. Because your average Jedi can't deflect even regular blasterfire barehanded, somebody who can do it with a starship cannon must be "average". And because he could briefly stall and survive a heat storm hitting him with 500 kph speed and 300 degrees celcius he certainly is an "average Jedi". Pass what you're smoking.
Ommin still isn't a Kreia-level opponent. Powerful enough to subdue Arca, but so is Kreia I would assume and more - Kreia could kill Jedi with one single attack with the force.
Yes. And that single attack with the force, which is pretty much her greatest showing of force power, is completely useless versus the Exile because of the Exile's very nature.
What does that even equate to really? When Kun fought Ulic he was an inexperienced dark sider that was using his lightsaber only. Nothing about Kun there suggest he was more dangerous than Kreia was on Malachor 5 at the end of Kotor. Despite that, Ulic only managed a DRAW after a brief encounter.
Yes. Kun was so inexperienced that he had no problem of force slapping Aleema across the room. Not to mention that he exterminated Nadd's spirit before and dealt with that pretty nice Sithspawn on Yavin 4. And I'd take the guy armed with a deadly Sith Amulet and equipped with enough Sith knowledge to floor people with force energy beams, aside from being a master swordsmen over the blind women which one hand that was limited in the fight because of the nature of her opponent each day.
See how context is so important in determining the value of feats?
What wisdom ? Why don't you apply that on your argument.
- without her unique nature and the support of Visas, Nihilus would have killed the Exile.
- without the knowledge she archieved from Kreia about Sion, the Sith Lord would also have killed her because she wouldn't have been able to break his will.
- without her unique nature, with prevented that Kreia used her instakill technique against her, the Exile would have been killed by the Sith Lady rather easily.
So much for the context here dude. The only claim to fame for the Exile that is not a result of her benefitting from the circumstances is her defeat of Atris. And unless you want to put the Jedi librarian on one level with Exar Kun, Ommin or even the likes of Warb Null (see above) or Satal Keto, you don't have a point.
Originally posted by Borbarad
You mean aside from the fact that the guy was capable of putting his spirit into a tome including a Sith book which he protected that in turn contained enough knowledge about Sith magic and alchemy to help a regular metallurgical student to construct that nice armor. Aside of that the spirit granted Shas Dovos (the student) the ability to understand what was written down in the books, just to possess him after he finished the construction of the armor. Give me a call when you see Atris doing anything compareable.
You're like a real-life 1930's cartoon. Your arguments are so ridiculous, I wonder whether I'm lowering myself by replying to them. Give me a break, the only evidence for the "wealth" of knowledge in Dovos' little tome is the armor. And who the f**k is going to equate the knowledge of designing armor with generations worth of accumulated Jedi knowledge on Sith arts? How the hell can you seriously consider this a point? You must be out of your freaking mind.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Urm. Earth to Allankles. I was talking about Sith knowledge. Aside of that: The Ancient Sith are quite all depicted to have livespans of several centuries. So when it comes to learning stuff they simply have some time advantage in comparison to regular human beings.
Where's the evidence? Some random Sith spirit posseses Dovos and suddenly, Warb Null has more knowledge than Atris? What a freaking argument. Atris, whose whole life (almost) was devoted to the study of Jedi and Sith lore. Right, dream on.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Wielding a single lightsaber with any sufficient skill would already require more focussing than doing the same thing with your hand because in addition to the original lightsaber style work you would also have to focus on applying telekinesis on the lightsaber. Now Kreia was levitating 3 weapons. And you want to tell me that she did perform some nice bladework with all three weapons simultaneously ? This without having the slightest proof for that and while ignoring the fact that the Exile could simply have used telekinetic attacks on the weapons herself ? Good god.
I clear example of your weak debating skills. "The Exile using TK on the blades", "three blades would be too much for little old Kreia to handle". And you call yourself a debater? Really just stop. TK is performed through mind control, are you suggesting that a Jedi as experienced as Kreia cannot apply enough mind control to elegantly control three lightsabers? Remember, part of the task is visualizing, and I'd expect Kreia to be able to visualize three free flowing lightsabers working in tandem. Stop writing your own suggestions like they're some kind of common wisdom.
No one is suggesting that the technique is easy or can be achieved by anyone, but Kreia clearly was capable of using the technique well enough for it to be used as a threat.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Think about the fact that Kreia would have to think about any unconventional movements for three weapons simultaneously while focusing to keep that things in the air and this while there is nothing to suggest that she's any good with lightsabers anyway.
So you've changed the bent of your argument. Your "point" seems to only be questioning Kreia's capability in using the three lightsabers effectively. It's not even an argument, are we trying to say that it's difficult or impossible for Kreia to have controlled three lightsabers effectively? Because if the answer is impossible I'd have to call BS on your assertions, given the context here (it's SW afterall). Or are you trying to say you would have no doubts if it were your favourite character.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And even if we would do that, that wouldn't put the Exile above Ulic. So what ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
So no. She's not going to counter every movement Ulic can use with a lightsaber. Sorry.
The narrative quite clearly describes her learning process as abnormally fast. Vrook, Zez and Kavar all display surprise at the speed with which the Exile learns the techniques. Techniques that would usually take years to learn. And who said anything about countering every movement? All I said is that it certainly gives the Exile the edge over someone like Ulic.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Sure. Sion is more powerful in the force and better with a lightsaber than Exar "I kill Jedi Masters for fun" Kun. 🙄
You're too easy, you actually think you're "winning" the debate. Ulic never defeated Kun, so wtf are you dribbling on about?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes dude. Finally realizing how pointless Mr Sion is for that debate ? Because the Exile did neither overwhelm him with superior force mastery nor did she do it with superior lightsaber skill. The mentioning of Sion is simply [b]POINTLESS. Shall I draw you a damn picture for that ? [/B]
As I said, you're too f**k**g easy. The Exile was superior to Sion in her COMBAT prowess i.e. regarldess of whether it was an all out force fight, lightsaber fight or little of both, the Exile was superior, prompting Sion to doubt himslef and thereby weakening his will. So yes SHERLOCK, the Exile did - in a manner of speaking - overwhelmn Sion.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Which is the entire point here. Because you can't beat Sion physically (through lightsaber combat or force powers) it only makes sense to mention his defeat to "proof" the Exile's superiority over Ulic if you want to tell me that the Exile is going to defeat Sion in the same manner she did it with Sion - which is not going to happen. Easy, isn't it ?
Go f**ck yourself! 😆 I mean that in the most light-hearted possible way. Your too dim. Ulic is not Sion, he's not as durable, he's not as big of a walking nightmare. Ulic doesn't share Sion's strengths nor does he share his weaknesses. I'll say it again, Sion just represents an opponent the Exile has defeated that is more powerful than any of Ulic's victories.
Sion is not (nor is anyone on Ulic's ledger) a constant by which we can directly compare the Exile to Ulic, but he's a decent enough argument for the Exile over Ulic based on feats.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. Because your average Jedi can't deflect even regular blasterfire barehanded, somebody who can do it with a starship cannon must be "average". And because he could briefly stall and survive a heat storm hitting him with 500 kph speed and 300 degrees celcius he certainly is an "average Jedi". Pass what you're smoking.
😆 It's good we somewhat understand each other. He's average in the same way Bastila was average in Kotor 1, he's blessed with one gift, but it doesn't make him above average in combat. He was a pretty average Jedi in his combat exploits, and with regards to this particular debate, he's average.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. And that single attack with the force, which is pretty much her greatest showing of force power, is completely useless versus the Exile because of the Exile's very nature.
That by no means discredits the feat for the Exile, he's still had to go through a lot to defeat Kreia. The point would have mattered if Kreia wasn't a very knowledgable and powerful master of the force.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. Kun was so inexperienced that he had no problem of force slapping Aleema across the room. Not to mention that he exterminated Nadd's spirit before and dealt with that pretty nice Sithspawn on Yavin 4. And I'd take the guy armed with a deadly Sith Amulet and equipped with enough Sith knowledge to floor people with force energy beams, aside from being a master swordsmen over the blind women which one hand that was limited in the fight because of the nature of her opponent each day.
Yeah! I don't remember Ulic ever beating Kun or ever beating an opponent on the level of that one blind woman you describe. Did it ever occur to you that the Exile (imagining they could actually meet) represent Ulic's greatest foe? Because by Kotor 2 the Exile has a ton more experience in combat than Kun and has an advantage over Ulic in one on one scenarios thanks to her gifts.
I also quite clearly remember stating that their fight was lightsabers only: and stop blowing the feat out of proportion. He matched skills with Kun, big deal. The Exile gets the job done; stalemates don't qualify as her biggest feat.
Kun nails the sneaky but averageish dark Jedi Aleema with a force attack (not fatal so no biggie) http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=148
He doesn't even attack Ulic with the force, maybe because he can't defeat an above average Jedi with a force atack, but whatever....
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=149
The fight is soon interrupted... http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=150
Yeah decent fight between to of the top dogs of that era, but it still doesn't come close to eclipsing what the Exile has accomplished.
Originally posted by Borbarad
What wisdom ? Why don't you apply that on your argument.
- without her unique nature and the support of Visas, Nihilus would have killed the Exile.
The Exile's nature is unique to the Exile. Understand the logic before making a fool of yourself. If the Exile wasn't a wound she wouldn't BE THE EXILE.
Originally posted by Borbarad
- without the knowledge she archieved from Kreia about Sion, the Sith Lord would also have killed her because she wouldn't have been able to break his will.
But-but-but... that was one of Kreia's functions as a teacher. You can't just argue over story developments and pass them off as an argument against "my" logic. It's not my story nor is it reality. Your train of thought is way wrong.
Originally posted by Borbarad
- without her unique nature, with prevented that Kreia used her instakill technique against her, the Exile would have been killed by the Sith Lady rather easily.
Again that's a bonus to the Exile for being who she is, she has a very good in-built defense against a very deadly technique. But it doesn't matter, Kreia is a very powerful and dangerous foe regardless.
Originally posted by Borbarad
So much for the context here dude. The only claim to fame for the Exile that is not a result of her benefitting from the circumstances is her defeat of Atris. And unless you want to put the Jedi librarian on one level with Exar Kun, Ommin or even the likes of Warb Null (see above) or Satal Keto, you don't have a point.
Right? Firsty, you've failed to apply my logic correctly to your arguments. The Ulic-Kun fight was a straight lightsaber fight against an Exar Kun who wasn't in his prime (remember he had just come from dispatching Sadow days maybe weeks after truning to the dark side (so he was indeed inexperienced).
Plus Kun never used force powers (and unlike in the Exile's case) we can't make the assumption that Ulic was immune or resistant to Kun's force powers/techniques. So the fight - up to the point it is interrupted - doesn't offer enough evidence of Ulic coping with an all out attack as Kun only used his lightsaber in a brief (to say the least) encounter.
See what I meant now? Don't just throw half-baked arguments out there, apply a little reasoning.
Originally posted by Allankles
You're like a real-life 1930's cartoon. Your arguments are so ridiculous, I wonder whether I'm lowering myself by replying to them. Give me a break, the only evidence for the "wealth" of knowledge in Dovos' little tome is the armor. And who the f**k is going to equate the knowledge of designing armor with generations worth of accumulated Jedi knowledge on Sith arts? How the hell can you seriously consider this a point? You must be out of your freaking mind.
Real-life 1930's cartoon ? Funny. I guess you're the equivalent of a lobotomized Goofy then. The evidence for the wealth of knowledge in the tome is the fact that Dovos lures a book out of it and spents years with studying it, before he can even get a grasp on some of the things stated in it.
And we of course still have that Sith spirit that (like Freedom Nadd) bound his own spectral form to an object, was capable of granting Dovos the ability to understand the book through the force just to possess him afterwards.
Where's the evidence? Some random Sith spirit posseses Dovos and suddenly, Warb Null has more knowledge than Atris? What a freaking argument. Atris, whose whole life (almost) was devoted to the study of Jedi and Sith lore. Right, dream on.
Are you retarded, dude ? The very nature of the ancient Sith is that all of them where Dark Side users that used Sith magic in every day of their life. That means that those Sith, whose spirit did possess Dovos, did grow up with learning Dark Side powers regardless if he was a Dark Lord of the Sith once or just some "regular" Sith Lord. I don't see how Atris knowledge could possibly exceed that of a person who had (going by the average life time of the Sith species) more than a century to study the force, especially when it comes to Dark Side knowledge which still more effective than most Jedi Arts in direct confrontation with other force users.
I clear example of your weak debating skills. "The Exile using TK on the blades", "three blades would be too much for little old Kreia to handle". And you call yourself a debater? Really just stop. TK is performed through mind control, are you suggesting that a Jedi as experienced as Kreia cannot apply enough mind control to elegantly control three lightsabers? Remember, part of the task is visualizing, and I'd expect Kreia to be able to visualize three free flowing lightsabers working in tandem. Stop writing your own suggestions like they're some kind of common wisdom.
Wow. Can you give me a list of situations where a Jedi moved three objects with telekinesis indepentendly from each other and in a way that those objects performed complex individual movements ? No ? In fact Luke in ESB had some problems with just lifting three objects independant from each other. And can you please tell me why Kreia would even attempt to attack the Exile with a single lightsaber in her hand instead of starting with the three telekinetically controlled lightsabers if the latter option is so much more efficient and dangerous for the opponent ? Obviously Kreia considered it more promissing to attack the Exile with a blade wielded in her off-hand than coming up with that TK action - for a reason.
And you should stop enforcing your thoughts on the situation as canon because what we see is Kreia levitating two blades while perfoming relative slow and predictable swings with the third. I don't see why we should assume she turned those weapons into an unpredictable lightsaber whirlwind with her telekinesis.
No one is suggesting that the technique is easy or can be achieved by anyone, but Kreia clearly was capable of using the technique well enough for it to be used as a threat.
Yes. That's why she rather enters combat wielding a lightsaber regulary in the first place. Obviously this was more effective than using the three lightsaber with telekinesis, otherwise Kreia wouldn't have done it.
So you've changed the bent of your argument. Your "point" seems to only be questioning Kreia's capability in using the three lightsabers effectively. It's not even an argument, are we trying to say that it's difficult or impossible for Kreia to have controlled three lightsabers effectively? Because if the answer is impossible I'd have to call BS on your assertions, given the context here (it's SW afterall). Or are you trying to say you would have no doubts if it were your favourite character.
See above. There is a reason why we see Jedi handling their weapons with their hands despite of the fact that every damn force user is capable of using telekinesis. Because it obviously takes much more concentration and focus to even wield one lightsaber around with telekinesis as effectively as doing the same while holding the weapon in your hand. That's a damn fact.
The narrative quite clearly describes her learning process as abnormally fast. Vrook, Zez and Kavar all display surprise at the speed with which the Exile learns the techniques. Techniques that would usually take years to learn. And who said anything about countering every movement? All I said is that it certainly gives the Exile the edge over someone like Ulic.
Which still doesn't mean that she's capable of learning the styles in minutes, dude hence it's completely irrelevant. How would that give the Exile any advantage over Ulic unless she already learned Ulic's style in the first place ?
The Exile was superior to Sion in her COMBAT prowess i.e. regarldess of whether it was an all out force fight, lightsaber fight or little of both, the Exile was superior, prompting Sion to doubt himslef and thereby weakening his will. So yes SHERLOCK, the Exile did - in a manner of speaking - overwhelmn Sion.
And without prior knowledge archieved through Kreia, the Exile wouldn't have been able to break Sion's will resulting in the inability to kill him, meaning she would have lost. And unless you can quantify Sion's force mastery and / or lightsaber skills this point is once more useless.
Ulic is not Sion, he's not as durable, he's not as big of a walking nightmare. Ulic doesn't share Sion's strengths nor does he share his weaknesses. I'll say it again, Sion just represents an opponent the Exile has defeated that is more powerful than any of Ulic's victories.
Holy crap. For all you know, the lightsaber and force abilities of everyone (with exception of Mandalore of course) that Ulic faced did exceed those of Sion. So how is Sion more "powerful" (in terms of combat prowess and skills) than the people Ulic faced. He is unbreakeable, yes. But that single advantage was negated by the Exile's knowledge about him with enabled her to break Sion's will.
Sion is not (nor is anyone on Ulic's ledger) a constant by which we can directly compare the Exile to Ulic, but he's a decent enough argument for the Exile over Ulic based on feats.
How ? All you can see about Sion is that he's unbreakeable which doesn't matter because the Exile had the ability to counter that unique ability by her prior knowledge about Sion. This while Sion's lightsaber abilities and force control are unknowns.
It's good we somewhat understand each other. He's average in the same way Bastila was average in Kotor 1, he's blessed with one gift, but it doesn't make him above average in combat. He was a pretty average Jedi in his combat exploits, and with regards to this particular debate, he's average.
By this nice logic, you know, Sion is also just an average dude equipped with a unique gift. So is Nihilus. And so is the Exile herself. Wonder if that does your argument any good, dude.
Originally posted by Allankles
Yeah! I don't remember Ulic ever beating Kun or ever beating an opponent on the level of that one blind woman you describe. Did it ever occur to you that the Exile (imagining they could actually meet) represent Ulic's greatest foe? Because by Kotor 2 the Exile has a ton more experience in combat than Kun and has an advantage over Ulic in one on one scenarios thanks to her gifts.
Did it ever occur to you how powerful Exar already is when he visits Ulic and Aleema to kill them ?
Here (click me) the omniscient narrator mentions that Kun simply strides over the battlefield untouched by fire or shrapnel (when he clearly doesn't care much about the fight) while Oss Willum recognizes him as "immensely strong in the force". When he then boasts into the room he pretty much declares that he had learned everything about Sith magic already and proof his statement by not only ignoring Aleema's attack but knocking her out with a casual blast of Dark Side energy from his hand. That aside from being a master swordsman and the most powerful student a 600 year old Jedi Master did ever have.
I also quite clearly remember stating that their fight was lightsabers only: and stop blowing the feat out of proportion. He matched skills with Kun, big deal. The Exile gets the job done; stalemates don't qualify as her biggest feat.
No. Her biggest feat, considering all circumstances, is to defeat a Jedi librarian that digged around a little bit in the Sith arts.
Yes. Eveybody can project Dark Side energy beams from his hand and instantly knock out other force users with them. Certainly nothing special. Especially when the target of the attack has been shown to pretty much disintegrate people with a force attack (the same one Kun walked right through).
Kun nails the sneaky but averageish dark Jedi Aleema with a force attack (not fatal so no biggie)
He doesn't even attack Ulic with the force, maybe because he can't defeat an above average Jedi with a force atack, but whatever....
Nice try to ignore the fact that Ulic pretty much jumped right through a Sith Magic attack from Ommin almost a year before that incident. But maybe he got weaker over time by using the Dark Side and receiving a "deadly" Sith amulet ? Lmao. That might also be a nice explanation as to why Aleema perceives Kun and Ulic as "rippling with Dark Side energy" later or why the fight could have went on for hours without a winner (as the DSB claims). Really...apparently Ulic's force defences are pretty high. I don't see how the fact that Kun doesn't try to force pimp slap him does speak against Kun and not for Ulic.
Yeah decent fight between to of the top dogs of that era, but it still doesn't come close to eclipsing what the Exile has accomplished.
As all the Exile's accomplishments are based on plot elements of KotoR 2, with the exception of defeating Atris, I don't see how that would put her above Ulic.
The Exile's nature is unique to the Exile. Understand the logic before making a fool of yourself. If the Exile wasn't a wound she wouldn't BE THE EXILE.
Z0mg. Are you really too stupid to get the point ? The Exile's opponents are all constructed to fail against the very nature of the Exile. That's the entire point here. Nihilus fails against the Exile because he weakens himself trying to force drain her. He would have killed her without that. Hell...he would also have killed the Exile if the Exile hadn't brought Visas along which is pretty apparent.
But-but-but... that was one of Kreia's functions as a teacher. You can't just argue over story developments and pass them off as an argument against "my" logic. It's not my story nor is it reality. Your train of thought is way wrong.
What logic are you talking about ? The point is that the Exile's defeat of Sion tells us nothing about how well she would fare against Ulic Qel-Droma.
Again that's a bonus to the Exile for being who she is, she has a very good in-built defense against a very deadly technique. But it doesn't matter, Kreia is a very powerful and dangerous foe regardless.
No. Kreia is somebody that learned Sith teachings from a source that peresents the force-drain instakill as nice solution for every bigger problem where Ulic simply resists Sith magic attacks that floor other Jedi because of his force potential and with that is quite able to dash out some damage even when not focusing (such as tearing the torture droid and the stone structure down after Satal Keto injected the Sith poision) or outright throwing two of his friends out of the way.
Right? Firsty, you've failed to apply my logic correctly to your arguments. The Ulic-Kun fight was a straight lightsaber fight against an Exar Kun who wasn't in his prime (remember he had just come from dispatching Sadow days maybe weeks after truning to the dark side (so he was indeed inexperienced).
Apparently you are completely inable to read the comics.
As it seems, Kun has studied enough Dark Side Lore at this point already, to have his Massassi built temples according to some Ancient Sith design. Ups ? And notice how far they have built up said temples already at that point.
"Exar Kun had unearthed a trove of Sith Alchemical lore..." This in addition to the Dark Side lore which he had obviously already gained before.
Yeah. Guess Kun had no Sith knowledge at all when he did confront Ulic. And combat experience ? You mean aside from being so good with the damn lightsaber that he is called the "most formidable student I ever had" by Vodo who trained Jedi for centuries aside from being fast enough to draw his lightsaber, ignite it and cut two people down that were aiming at him with their blasters before one of them is capable of pulling the trigger ? Right. He certainly sucks in lightsaber combat at that point.
Plus Kun never used force powers (and unlike in the Exile's case) we can't make the assumption that Ulic was immune or resistant to Kun's force powers/techniques.
WTF ? I didn't see the Exile resisting anything but a force drain. On the other handside I see Ulic resisting Sith poison and a Sith Magic attack by Ommin.
So the fight - up to the point it is interrupted - doesn't offer enough evidence of Ulic coping with an all out attack as Kun only used his lightsaber in a brief (to say the least) encounter.
See above. As if Kun's freaking lightsaber skill isn't already impressive enough, you have to consider that Ulic was wearing a deadly Sith amulet boosting his already considerable force abilities (including his force defence).
Originally posted by Borbarad
Did it ever occur to you how powerful Exar already is when he visits Ulic and Aleema to kill them ?Here (click me) the omniscient narrator mentions that Kun simply strides over the battlefield untouched by fire or shrapnel (when he clearly doesn't care much about the fight) while Oss Willum recognizes him as "immensely strong in the force".
How has Exar Kun's strength in the force not been addressed in this thread? Still, you do realize the statement by itself is not significant here. Top tiers are generally very strong in the force.
Originally posted by Borbarad
When he then boasts into the room he pretty much declares that he had learned everything about Sith magic already and proof his statement by not only ignoring Aleema's attack but knocking her out with a casual blast of Dark Side energy from his hand. That aside from being a master swordsman and the most powerful student a 600 year old Jedi Master did ever have.
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Where is it suggested that Exar Kun casually blasted Aleema? Btw have you thought about how this is important to the debate? Ulic only fought briefly and stalemated Kun.
Originally posted by Borbarad
No. Her biggest feat, considering all circumstances, is to defeat a Jedi librarian that digged around a little bit in the Sith arts.
Do you ever read your arguments before posting them? Circumstances, that you apparently fail to recognize as story elements. Why is the Exile's gift (her wound) a circumstance to you, when Kun's amulets are not?
If you were capable of thinking rationally you'd recognize that they are all plot devices and are as much a part of the characters as their names. Now, come back to me again with this BS.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. Eveybody can project Dark Side energy beams from his hand and instantly knock out other force users with them. Certainly nothing special. Especially when the target of the attack has been shown to pretty much disintegrate people with a force attack (the same one Kun walked right through).
Aleema isn't that strong, a dark Jedi should be expected to destroy non-force users with lightning (as an example) and other force powers. The average nightsister could achieve this, should we then automatically assume that they're better than average (Aleema is only very slightly above average)? I get what you're trying to say, but seriously destroying another organism with the force doesn't make Aleema better than average.
So Kun walking through Aleema's attack (given the absence of proof that it could floor powerful Jedi) doesn't mean much. Rationally it only means Kun is alot more powerful than Aleema which we expect.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Nice try to ignore the fact that Ulic pretty much jumped right through a Sith Magic attack from Ommin almost a year before that incident. But maybe he got weaker over time by using the Dark Side and receiving a "deadly" Sith amulet ? Lmao. That might also be a nice explanation as to why Aleema perceives Kun and Ulic as "rippling with Dark Side energy" later or why the fight could have went on for hours without a winner (as the DSB claims). Really...apparently Ulic's force defences are pretty high. I don't see how the fact that Kun doesn't try to force pimp slap him does speak against Kun and not for Ulic.
I remember quite clearly mentioning that I read the comic. Ulic also never jumped through any attack from Ommin, he quite clearly struggled through the dark side energies. As far as Kun not attacking Ulic with force powers, it doesn't mean anything except it didn't prove much as regards Ulic's power.
Look at it this way, if Dooku was powerful enough to feel confident to attack Yoda, why isn't Kun attacking Ulic with the force? The question is rhetorical, all we need know is that a force attack from Kun never happened both due to Kun's choice and Ragnos' interruption.
We already know Ulic and Kun are powerful up to this point in the narrative, Aleema's comments don't reveal anything we don't know. As I said I'm tired of discussing irrelevant verbal fellatio, the fight was decent, and it certainly wasn't unique in the context of the Star Wars mythos, so don't overhype it.
Lastly, Ulic was never noted for his offensive force powers, so his amulet is pretty insignificant to this debate.
Originally posted by Borbarad
As all the Exile's accomplishments are based on plot elements of KotoR 2, with the exception of defeating Atris, I don't see how that would put her above Ulic.
You're an idiot. Every accomplishment is a PLOT element. You can't be this dim. Every single victory, accomplishments, feat by any character is a series of crafted plot elements. In the Exile case they make sense, because they are linked to her very nature as opposed to a deus ex machina,.
Originally posted by BorbaradZ0mg. Are you really too stupid to get the point ? The Exile's opponents are all constructed to fail against the very nature of the Exile. That's the entire point here. Nihilus fails against the Exile because he weakens himself trying to force drain her. He would have killed her without that. Hell...he would also have killed the Exile if the Exile hadn't brought Visas along which is pretty apparent.
I understand your point very well and that is why I have to disagree using sound reasoning. The Exile's nature means, in the case of Sion, and Nihilus especially that it is a feat that could only be achieved by her. By that reasoning, where's the logic in discrediting the Exile?
It's a feat that is entirely unique to her due to her nature, and that doesn't make it less substantial feat for the Exile. And Visas was always going to come along, regardless of the Exile's interference.
When one character is more powerful than another, that's a plot element, when one character possesses the weakness of another, that too is a plot element, so you don't have much of a point here. Lastly, the Exile also displays an ability to counter opponents that were not "wounds" as you well know, she could learn her opponents techniques and forms quickly, through her force bonding.
Originally posted by Borbarad
What logic are you talking about ? The point is that the Exile's defeat of Sion tells us nothing about how well she would fare against Ulic Qel-Droma.
But it tells us the Exile has beaten better opposition.
Originally posted by Borbarad
No. Kreia is somebody that learned Sith teachings from a source that peresents the force-drain instakill as nice solution for every bigger problem where Ulic simply resists Sith magic attacks that floor other Jedi because of his force potential and with that is quite able to dash out some damage even when not focusing (such as tearing the torture droid and the stone structure down after Satal Keto injected the Sith poision) or outright throwing two of his friends out of the way.
How and why would you equate, resisting dark side energies and breaking droids, to instantly killing Jedi masters with the force? One is clearly an advanced and extremely potent force technique (force drain) and another is basic tk and defensive Jedi techniques. You're clearly not thinking logically.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently you are completely inable to read the comics.As it seems, Kun has studied enough Dark Side Lore at this point already, to have his Massassi built temples according to some Ancient Sith design. Ups ? And notice how far they have built up said temples already at that point.
Oops! So using blue prints of Sith architecture signifies a great deal of experience on Kun's part? Or Signifies a great deal of acquired knowledge on Sith arts? I wasn't aware architecture was part of the deep dark arts that only supremely knowledgeable Sith Lords are supposed to be aware of. I don't get how your reasoning can be so skewed. Architecture and building planning isn't unique to the Sith, nor does it lend proof of Kun's great knowledge.
However, this doesn't address my argument that Kun was a relatively inexperienced dark sider at the point he fought Ulic.
Don't turn this into a debate on Kun, I don't care about Kun's knowledge, it certainly didn't affect the fight he had with Ulic.
Originally posted by Borbarad
click me"Exar Kun had unearthed a trove of Sith Alchemical lore..." This in addition to the Dark Side lore which he had obviously already gained before.
Yeah. Guess Kun had no Sith knowledge at all when he did confront Ulic. And combat experience ? You mean aside from being so good with the damn lightsaber that he is called the "most formidable student I ever had" by Vodo who trained Jedi for centuries aside from being fast enough to draw his lightsaber, ignite it and cut two people down that were aiming at him with their blasters before one of them is capable of pulling the trigger ? Right. He certainly sucks in lightsaber combat at that point.
Uncovering troves of Sith lore doesn't make Kun anymore experienced a dark sider at this point. You don't seem to be understanding my point. Kun was inexperienced, whatever knowledge he gained in his time before he fought Ulic certainly didn't make him anymore experienced. As far as Kun's knowledge goes, it certainly wasn't a factor when he faced Ulic.
And who mentioned lightsaber skills? Certainly Kun and Ulic were skilled duelists, they weren't uber but they were certainly good.
Originally posted by Borbarad
[WTF ? I didn't see the Exile resisting anything but a force drain. On the other handside I see Ulic resisting Sith poison and a Sith Magic attack by Ommin.
So resisting a force drain powerful enough to render Jedi lifeless instantly, is less awesome, than resisting Sith poisons and less potent force attacks? Just end this debate, its getting tiring replying to arguments like this.
Originally posted by Borbarad
[See above. As if Kun's freaking lightsaber skill isn't already impressive enough, you have to consider that Ulic was wearing a deadly Sith amulet boosting his already considerable force abilities (including his force defence).
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Kun slashed a couple of blaster wielding opponents with a quick strike, suddenly he's a god of lightsaber dueling? He was a very good duelists in his time, I don't see though, why I should be giving Ulic undue credit for stalemating (after a brief encounter) the one truly formidable opponent he faced. Tell me why I guy whose biggest wins are against Warb Null and Ommin, should beat someone with the Exile's feats?
Originally posted by BorbaradThe very nature of the ancient Sith is that all of them where Dark Side users that used Sith magic in every day of their life. That means that those Sith, whose spirit did possess Dovos, did grow up with learning Dark Side powers regardless if he was a Dark Lord of the Sith once or just some "regular" Sith Lord. I don't see how Atris knowledge could possibly exceed that of a person who had (going by the average life time of the Sith species) more than a century to study the force, especially when it comes to Dark Side knowledge which still more effective than most Jedi Arts in direct confrontation with other force users.
Where is it stated that every Ancient Sith had knowledge surpassing generations of the Jedi's accumulated knowledge on Sith lore? Here's an analogy for you to ponder; your logic asserts that a lay man living in 1940's Germany would have more knowledge on world war II military campaigns than a military historian that has spent years studying that war. Or more precisely that a soldier in world war 2 would have more knowledge on the war than a military historian, simply on the basis that he was there.
The logic is quite clearly flawed, but you're welcome to try again. Nowhere does it state that every ancient Sith was a fountain of Sith Lore surpassing Jedi historians (who studied Sith lore specifically).
Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. Can you give me a list of situations where a Jedi moved three objects with telekinesis indepentendly from each other and in a way that those objects performed complex individual movements ? No ? In fact Luke in ESB had some problems with just lifting three objects independant from each other.
I don't remember anyone in SW attempting to use three lightsabers with TK in combat. So how the hell can you assume that it's impossible given the empirical proof that Kreia ALREADY accomplished it?
ESB Luke is an initiate in the Jedi arts, what a lousy example.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And can you please tell me why Kreia would even attempt to attack the Exile with a single lightsaber in her hand instead of starting with the three telekinetically controlled lightsabers if the latter option is so much more efficient and dangerous for the opponent ? Obviously Kreia considered it more promissing to attack the Exile with a blade wielded in her off-hand than coming up with that TK action - for a reason.
What outstanding logic! Because Kreia didn't use three lightsabers from the onset, this must be proof that she's not adept at handling three lightsabers with her TK? Wow Nai, you really nailed me on that one.
I believe the narrative makes it quite clear. In one of Kreia's responses at the interval before she uses the three lightsabers she says to the Exile: "you are strong but you don't know true power yet!" and she brandishes her lightsabers. Also after a lightside response she says: "you will not show me mercy, I will see you break before you do."
Again the narrative quite clearly shows that she takes the intensity of the fight a level higher when she introduces the three lightsabers.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And you should stop enforcing your thoughts on the situation as canon because what we see is Kreia levitating two blades while perfoming relative slow and predictable swings with the third. I don't see why we should assume she turned those weapons into an unpredictable lightsaber whirlwind with her telekinesis.
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The animations are just gameplay. By this reasoning the Kotor comic panels on Ulic's fights are far less impressive.
Don't use such idiotic arguments, they don't help your case for Ulic
Originally posted by Allankles
Do you ever read your arguments before posting them? Circumstances, that you apparently fail to recognize as story elements. Why is the Exile's gift (her wound) a circumstance to you, when Kun's amulets are not?
Because Kun's amulet aren't crucial for his most important feats as they are just used against the Sithwyrm, Nadd and (to a certain extend) the Chancellor – all belonging to Kun's less impressive feats considering his other force abilities. The Exile's nature is crucial for he defeat of at least Kreia and Nihilus. You can't argue around that. Now everybody with that single ability the Exile had (simply constructing a fictional situation in which, let's say Ulic has become a wound in the force) could have repeated those actions.
On the other handside: Kreia put herself and the Exile far below the Ancient Sith (among them Naga Sadow), calling herself and the Exile „children“ compared to them. I wonder how you think the Exile would have defeated Warb Null who happens to be one of said ancient Sith (ups) or to stalemate Kun who happens to have studied most if not all Sadow left behind already at the point he was facing Ulic.
I remember quite clearly mentioning that I read the comic. Ulic also never jumped through any attack from Ommin, he quite clearly struggled through the dark side energies. As far as Kun not attacking Ulic with force powers, it doesn't mean anything except it didn't prove much as regards Ulic's power.
Excuse me if I thrust the words of the omniscient narrator more than your half-baked interpretation.
“Ulic Qel-Droma smashes through the deluge of baleful energies” It might be only me but smashing through something hardly indicates any struggle.
Lastly, Ulic was never noted for his offensive force powers, so his amulet is pretty insignificant to this debate.
Aside from blasting a torture droid into bits and tossing Tott and Cay around as if they were ragdolls he also floored Nomi Sunrider with his deadly Sith amulet and used force choke. And I don't see what that has to do with his amulet as they just utilize the anger of their wearer to boost his telikenitic abilities and project beams of Dark Side energy.
I understand your point very well and that is why I have to disagree using sound reasoning. The Exile's nature means, in the case of Sion, and Nihilus especially that it is a feat that could only be achieved by her. By that reasoning, where's the logic in discrediting the Exile?
Oh man. The point is that by defeating those opponents through her specific nature, that fights can hardly be used to say anything about the Exile's combat skills. But those are the skills that matter here if you want to decide who would win a fight between Ulic and the Exile.
It's a feat that is entirely unique to her due to her nature, and that doesn't make it less substantial feat for the Exile. And Visas was always going to come along, regardless of the Exile's interference.
Since it's a feat that doesn't tell us anything about how powerful she is in comparison to Ulic it doesn't matter for that debate.
Lastly, the Exile also displays an ability to counter opponents that were not "wounds" as you well know, she could learn her opponents techniques and forms quickly, through her force bonding.
Yes. And for all we know that only works if the target person “allows” that kind of force bonding, as Kreia pretty much tells the Exile that she has cut said bond between them off. So obviously this again wouldn't help much in a fight against Ulic.
But it tells us the Exile has beaten better opposition.
Not through any skill that would help her against Ulic. Which is the entire point here. And better opposition ? I doubt that Kreia, when it comes down to force mastery with exception of her drain (that was useless against the Exile) is even close to Exar Kun when it comes to lightsaber mastery or force powers. You notice how she says that she's a child compared to one of those guys which entire knowledge Kun did lure out of Yavin 4.
How and why would you equate, resisting dark side energies and breaking droids, to instantly killing Jedi masters with the force? One is clearly an advanced and extremely potent force technique (force drain) and another is basic tk and defensive Jedi techniques. You're clearly not thinking logically.
And you're again not even attempting to get the point. That advanced technique was completely useless against the Exile just because of the Exile's nature. So how is it impressive that the Exile defeated somebody who had this technique ?
Oops! So using blue prints of Sith architecture signifies a great deal of experience on Kun's part? Or Signifies a great deal of acquired knowledge on Sith arts? I wasn't aware architecture was part of the deep dark arts that only supremely knowledgeable Sith Lords are supposed to be aware of. I don't get how your reasoning can be so skewed. Architecture and building planning isn't unique to the Sith, nor does it lend proof of Kun's great knowledge.
Are you freaking retarded or blind ? I wonder how the hell somebody can built some temples that “will focus great dark side energies in this place” without applying any kind of Sith Lore on that temples first. Really. It's not so that a building is turned into a thing that focuses force powers by using a certain geometry to the design. That aside from the fact I can't even tell you how stupid it is to assume that Kun walked into some room, grapping some ancient Sith text and it all were just blue prints for some temples that – automatically – focus force energy into a certain place.
However, this doesn't address my argument that Kun was a relatively inexperienced dark sider at the point he fought Ulic.
Lmao. What has “inexperience in the Dark Side” to do with actual power of a person ? Kun apparently has been a force user for the greater part of his life and a pretty gifted one given how Vodo calls him the most formidable student he ever had. That aside from the fact that we know nothing about how long Kun did exactly study those knowledge (and apparently it was long enough to have the Massassi almost complete all those temples). Aside of the fact that Kun is a damn fast learner and – looking at Path of Destruction – Darth Bane was capable of mastering Dark Side techniques in the matter of hours. So your argument isn't an argument but mere speculation that doesn't hold any water in the context of the SW universe.
Don't turn this into a debate on Kun, I don't care about Kun's knowledge, it certainly didn't affect the fight he had with Ulic.
Ah yes. Force mastery doesn't affect lightsaber fights especially when the DSB claims that this fight could have continued for hours and we know that using force attacks against each other is quite common in fights between Jedi or Jedi / Sith.
Kun was inexperienced, whatever knowledge he gained in his time before he fought Ulic certainly didn't make him anymore experienced.
As you don't know how long Kun had to study the stuff, you're pretty much talking out of your ass. In the same fashion I could claim that the Exile is an inexperienced force user and lightsaber duellist as the KotoR 2 storyline most likely happens in the courtesy of some weaks (at max).
And who mentioned lightsaber skills? Certainly Kun and Ulic were skilled duelists, they weren't uber but they were certainly good.
Lmao. Those two guy just happen to be the most skilled duellist of their era. They aren't uber ? Ulic is good enough with a saber to stop an enraged Jedi in melee combat and Kun, by the fact that he came up with a unique weapon and a unique form to wield it, seems to be a damn saber prodigy. If those aren't “uber” I wonder what the Exile is ?
So resisting a force drain powerful enough to render Jedi lifeless instantly, is less awesome, than resisting Sith poisons and less potent force attacks? Just end this debate, its getting tiring replying to arguments like this.
Yes. It is damn more impressive to resist thos attacks if you have to do NOTHING to archieve resisting a force drain because your “I'm da force wound” DXM ability enables you to do it automatically you son of a silly person.
Kun slashed a couple of blaster wielding opponents with a quick strike, suddenly he's a god of lightsaber dueling? He was a very good duelists in his time, I don't see though, why I should be giving Ulic undue credit for stalemating (after a brief encounter) the one truly formidable opponent he faced. Tell me why I guy whose biggest wins are against Warb Null and Ommin, should beat someone with the Exile's feats?
First: I was referring to Kun's speed there and not to his duelling ability.
Second: He was the best duelist in his time and Ulic is the only person that ever stalemated him
Third: Come back when you have learned to construct argument instead of coming up with feat wars. Really. “Ulic spread death on a genocidal level throughout the Galaxy and the Exile did only kill a few hundret opponents. Ulic > Exile”. Holy shit.
Where is it stated that every Ancient Sith had knowledge surpassing generations of the Jedi's accumulated knowledge on Sith lore? Here's an analogy for you to ponder; your logic asserts that a lay man living in 1940's Germany would have more knowledge on world war II military campaigns than a military historian that has spent years studying that war. Or more precisely that a soldier in world war 2 would have more knowledge on the war than a military historian, simply on the basis that he was there.
The logic is quite clearly flawed, but you're welcome to try again. Nowhere does it state that every ancient Sith was a fountain of Sith Lore surpassing Jedi historians (who studied Sith lore specifically).
And nowhere does it state, that a Jedi historian that digged around in the Sith Arts for a few years suddenly has more Sith knowledge than a freaking Ancient Sith. And after pretty much assuming this you really call my logic “flawed”. LMAO.
I don't remember anyone in SW attempting to use three lightsabers with TK in combat. So how the hell can you assume that it's impossible given the empirical proof that Kreia ALREADY accomplished it?
Oh my f*cking God. How stupid can somebody be. I said that if wielding three lightsabers around telekinetically would be more efficient than using one lightsaber with your hand, we would see every damn powerful force user running around, fighting with levitated lightsabers. This obviously doesn't happen. Why ? Because you need to focus on every object you affect with the force. In this case on three lightsabers and then you have to think about movement patterns that would make that lightsaber move in a coordinated or dangerous fashion. So basically all you doing is to move the blade with your force powers instead with your physical power which will always require more effort than doing the same with your hand. So obviously fighting with levitating lightsabers can't be as efficient as using a single blade with your hand.
What outstanding logic! Because Kreia didn't use three lightsabers from the onset, this must be proof that she's not adept at handling three lightsabers with her TK? Wow Nai, you really nailed me on that one.
Nice strawman once more, Allannoying. I said she is not as efficient with wielding around those lightsabers with TK as she was when fighting with one weapon in her hand. Explanation: See above. And now you can STFU.
The animations are just gameplay. By this reasoning the Kotor comic panels on Ulic's fights are far less impressive.
One thing Nai, you are using Naga Sadow's name incorrectly. You have no idea as to whom Kreia is referring to when she mentions ancient sith. For all you know ( and this is more logical ), these were the ancient sith before Ragnos, during a time when they were at their peak. Ragnos was likely the last powerful ancient sith, as Sadow and KRessh and those below him showed virtually nothing.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
One thing Nai, you are using Naga Sadow's name incorrectly. You have no idea as to whom Kreia is referring to when she mentions ancient sith. For all you know ( and this is more logical ), these were the ancient sith before Ragnos, during a time when they were at their peak. Ragnos was likely the last powerful ancient sith, as Sadow and KRessh and those below him showed virtually nothing.
First: She's referring to "one" of "the ancient masters"
Second: She gives that comment while standing right in front of the tombs of Pall, Ragnos, Hord and Sadow
Conclusion: She was referring to the Lords of the Ancient Sith Empire in general or specifically those four in the tombs that were in front of her at that point in time.
And aside of that: Looking at what Kun was capable of with the knowledge of Sadow only I doubt that Sadow "wasn't powerful". Sorry. That simply stupid.
Originally posted by Borbarad
First: She's referring to "one" of "the ancient masters"
Second: She gives that comment while standing right in front of the tombs of Pall, Ragnos, Hord and Sadow
Conclusion: She was referring to the Lords of the Ancient Sith Empire in general or specifically those four in the tombs that were in front of her at that point in time.
And aside of that: Looking at what Kun was capable of with the knowledge of Sadow only I doubt that Sadow "wasn't powerful". Sorry. That simply stupid.
