Originally posted by Dizzle
How is the environment specified by the thread starter a plot device? Wolverine would have a better chance in Kansas or the Sahara Desert, but this fight is in New York City. If only featureless environments are acceptable, then EVERYTHING is a plot device.
if namor is using everything as a weapon then yes you're correct...
if namor has to use something that he doesn't normally carry as part of his arsenal to beat logan with than it's a win via plot device... simple as.
Originally posted by jinzinAn "anti-Namor" gun would obviously be Deus ex Machina and you were drawing comparisons so I assumed you were referring to a Deus ex Machina type of plot device. Well then which form of plot device are you referring to if not Deus ex Machina. A car or a building in New York isn't a contrived object introduced into the scenario to advance anything. New York is the scenario, cars and buildings are there.
false dichotomy:a plot device doesn't have to be one of Deus ex Machina
Originally posted by jinzin
cause he just laid there and left the sword inside him..he's been stabbed just like that before in the jungle story... he took the spear out and he was fine.. he appears as though he doesn't WANT to fight any longer.. there's a big diff there...
Yet it appears he was unable to get up and take it out because of the pain. Or are you saying otherwise? The man was tearing for petes sake.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Well then which form of plot device are you referring to if not Deus ex Machina. A car or a building in New York isn't a contrived object introduced into the scenario to advance anything. New York is the scenario, cars and buildings are there.
perhaps we have a different understanding of Deus ex Machina. I've always understood that to mean a plot device that was too convinient to be believable....
but a plot device doesn't have to be Deus ex Machina to be a plot device...
"a plot device is an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot. In the hands of a skilled writer, the reader or viewer will not notice that the device is a construction of the author—it will seem to follow naturally from the setting or characters in the story"
a car, tree, building, water etc etc.. DEFINITELY fits into that category...
Originally posted by jinzinCars, trees, buildings and water are not introduced into New York to advance anything. They are just there.
perhaps we have a different understanding of Deus ex Machina. I've always understood that to mean a plot device that was too convinient to be believable....but a plot device doesn't have to be Deus ex Machina to be a plot device...
"a plot device is an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot. In the hands of a skilled writer, the reader or viewer will not notice that the device is a construction of the author—it will seem to follow naturally from the setting or characters in the story"a car, tree, building, water etc etc.. DEFINITELY fits into that category...
Repeating my above edit: An "anti-Namor" gun would obviously be Deus ex Machina and you were drawing comparisons so I assumed you were referring to a Deus ex Machina type of plot device.
Originally posted by jrodslam
Yet it appears he was unable to get up and take it out because of the pain. Or are you saying otherwise? The man was tearing for petes sake.
i honestly don't think he couldn't have...
but lets look at the mind control factor here... he says it's the first time in a while that he could think clearly... i don't think we wanted to waste ANY time trying to pull out the sword... and he was probably scared of hurting matt if he did get up...
the tears I would say was from a combination of the pain and of what he was forced to do..
we know that wolverine is VERY touchy about what happened to him as displayed in new defenders.. but I still don't think that can be concieved as a KO...
in any case I'm STILL wating for this monumental list of times wolverine's been KOed by "lesser" hits that melnorme was talking about.
Originally posted by jinzin
perhaps we have a different understanding of Deus ex Machina. I've always understood that to mean a plot device that was too convinient to be believable....but a plot device doesn't have to be Deus ex Machina to be a plot device...
"a plot device is an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot. In the hands of a skilled writer, the reader or viewer will not notice that the device is a construction of the author—it will seem to follow naturally from the setting or characters in the story"a car, tree, building, water etc etc.. DEFINITELY fits into that category...
LOL actually a plot device is anytime Wolverine fights a Huge hitter that doesn't knock him out or pound him into the ground.............
Using tools required to finish a job isn't a plot device it's intelligence.............Something most big hitters lose when wolverine is in the comic with them.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Cars, trees, buildings and water are not introduced into New York to advance anything. They are just there.Repeating my above edit: An "anti-Namor" gun would obviously be Deus ex Machina and you were drawing comparisons so I assumed you were referring to a Deus ex Machina type of plot device.
but they would be introduced to the fight to have any value.. which would be an introduction to the plot which would dictate them to be plot devices...
Originally posted by soleran30
LOL actually a plot device is anytime Wolverine fights a Huge hitter that doesn't knock him out or pound him into the ground.............
no that's just a consistent feat.
Originally posted by soleran30
Using tools required to finish a job isn't a plot device it's intelligence.............Something most big hitters lose when wolverine is in the comic with them.
they are plot devices BY DEFINITION...
Originally posted by jinzin
but they would be introduced to the fight to have any value.. which would be an introduction to the plot which would dictate them to be plot devices...
HAHA durrrr ok whatever..........there are large objects everywhere boulders, park benches, trees whatever..............they are there before Namor and Wolverine fight.
lol Anti-Namor gun would have to be introduced and created and placed there deliberatly vs justs occuring.
Originally posted by jinzinThey are introduced into the fight by the setting of the scenario by the threadstarter. That is why scenarios are set. When scenarios are not set a featureless environment is assumed in which case objects introduced may be considered plot devices.
but they would be introduced to the fight to have any value.. which would be an introduction to the plot which would dictate them to be plot devices...
Originally posted by soleran30
HAHA durrrr ok whatever..........there are large objects everywhere boulders, park benches, trees whatever..............they are there before Namor and Wolverine fight.lol Anti-Namor gun would have to be introduced and created and placed there deliberatly vs justs occuring.
yes they are everywhere... but they are not intorduced into the fight as namor's arsenal...
if he grabs them to use them for the purposes of the fight.... whatdyaknow... PLOT DEVICE....
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
They are introduced into the fight by the setting of the scenario by the threadstarter. That is why scenarios are set. When scenarios are not set a featureless environment is assumed in which case objects introduced may be considered plot devices.
being a part of the setting is just one of the many many features of various plot devices.. your argument does explain the rationale for their use as weapons.. but it does not make them anything less than plot devices...